Discussion Which is better in fighting decks: Lucario-EX or Shaymin-EX

[awesomeMSG]

Fighting is a very popular type right now in standard. Should these decks run Lucario with corkscrew smash for 60 damage and you draw until you have 6 cards in your hand or Shaymin which has an abilty and is when you put it onto the bench you get to draw until you have 6 cards in your hand like Lucario-EX.

I think in fighting decks Lucario because while you are getting set up, you can hit high numbers with lucario and draw until you have 6. Another reason is that it isn't a bench target like shaymin is. I run a Maxie's Gallade deck and I don't want putting Shaymin on the bench as a target rather than getting the full advantage of it. Some of my friends say Shaymin-EX is better than Lucario-EX because it is an ability rather than an attack. So the question is: Is lucario-EX or Shaymin-EX better in fighting decks?

 

[Perfect_Shot]

Why are you trying to compare these two, and why do you make it sound like you shouldn't run both?

The fact that Shaymin is a target is made easily redundant with use of AZ, Cassius and Super Scoop Up. Thanks to those cards, Shaymin can be used multiple times over the course of the game, including on the first turn, whereas Lucario will need two energy drops before it nets you anything.

 

[awesomeMSG]

That is kind of why I'm leaning toward Lucario because you aren't going to use those cards every turn for a shaymin. When Lucario is great for setting up, you do have to attach 2 energies, but it can take a hit with a bulky 180 HP unlike shaymin who is even weak to lightning and only 110 HP and by your opponents turn the can take an easy 2 prizes while you will probably have a turn or 2 to have lucario as a wall. So are you saying I should delete this thread?

Why are you trying to compare these two, and why do you make it sound like you shouldn't run both?

I feel both would be a bit excessive because you want to run about 2 shaymin depending on the deck and most fighting decks run 1-4 Lucario so running about 4 cards like that wouldn't be the best idea.

 

[Spoonfairy]

I feel both would be a bit excessive because you want to run about 2 shaymin depending on the deck and most fighting decks run 1-4 Lucario so running about 4 cards like that wouldn't be the best idea.

You should still run 2 Shaymin in the deck in my point of view. Drawing up to 6 cards at the end of your turn is not the same as being able to draw up to 6 cards during your turn. Shaymins draw is a lot stronger as you can instantly make use of the cards you draw.
Using Lucario in a deck you wouldn't have used him in normally just for the draw is a waste of too many turns.
Also you will be able to use it turn 1 without next to no setup[The setup is not having a too big hand], compared to 2 energy.

If you ask me, comparing Lucario to Shaymin is about the same as comparing Lucario to a support card, there isn't any either or scenario.

 

[Otaku]

I feel both would be a bit excessive because you want to run about 2 shaymin depending on the deck and most fighting decks run 1-4 Lucario so running about 4 cards like that wouldn't be the best idea.

You feel wrong.

Experience tells me that Shaymin-EX (ROS) is the more important of the two unless Lucario-EX is your main attacker, in which case it is a little more important but you ought to run both.

If you are using Shaymin-EX (ROS) properly, it will rarely be in the same vein as drawing off of Lucario-EX. Lucario-EX is run as a fast, Fighting-Type attacker; while its draw effect is useful it always happens after you attack so you can't use anything right away, giving your opponent time to wreck your hand. Often I find myself bouncing it with Super Scoop Up (probably because most of my experience is from Landobats in Expanded or Fighting/Crobat (PHF) in Standard) to abuse its damage output for a single Energy. This approach maxes out at 90 damage done but it means a hit that is not a OHKO has a 50% chance (per Super Scoop Up) of effectively having done no damage (the bounce also deals with some attack effects).

As has been stated, you may as well be comparing Professor Sycamore to Lucario-EX because while both Shaymin-EX and Lucario-EX are Pokémon, their roles are dramatically different!

 

[Talkingcat]

Honestly, these are not alternatives.

Shaymin is worth playing just for consistent & explosive starts and for avoiding dead draw. With Shaymin in your deck, you are so much more likely to end your first turn with a fairly full bench, an energy attached, some tools down and a supporter for the next turn. Corkscrew smash can't be used when until your second turn, and the cards it gets you won't be playable until your third turn. So it just doesn't replace Shaymin.

As far as the 2-prize liabiltiy goes- you win more games because of the consistent or explosive start than you lose from Shaymin being Lysandred out. Or if you don't win them, then you avoid being blown out of the water because the other player sets up better than you.

If the 2-prize liability is bothering you, you should be able to get Shaymin back into your hand. In addition to scoop ups, you can always AZ. Since you gets some cards from corkscrew smash, you are a bit freer to play a non-draw supporter. And if you are playing fighting-bats you should have AZ in your deck anyway.