why has HP and damage gone up so much over the years?

D

darkpoet

Aspiring Trainer
Member
back in the day, 60 damage was good. now its nothing. most basics had 40 HP.....now you got the EXs (whitch are BASIC!) with almost 200. and the energy cost has gone down too! why has the game changed so drasticly over the years???

{DRG} <-- love that symbol :D lol
 
This isn't a rulings or mechanics question. So it doesn't belong here.

But it's call a power creep, where the new cards slowly get stronger over time.
 
The idea, in short, is that if every new set that comes out is more powerful then the last, then previous set will then be obsolete and the players will be forced to buy the new sets. Make sense? I'll try to explain it more simply.

If ND was just as powerful as base set then what would it have to offer to new players? Very little of course. After more then 15 years of the same card game it must change for casual players and competitive players alike.
 
Short answer: $

Long answer: Little kids love awesome stuff. More hp, awesome buy a ton! Deals a ton of damage? Awesome buy a ton! If it can't beat their awesome Base Set Charizard, why buy these newfangled "EX" cards? But instead these cards have more hp and deal more damage than my old awesome cards! Awesome! Let's buy 10 million tons!
 
I don't really see what "money" has to do with power creep. Back in the day Charizard and Chansey were super special and hyped simply BECAUSE they were the only cards with 120 HP. Now everyone is just so desensitized to HP/power levels that even no-name Pokemon like Dustox can have 130 HP like it's candy. The main Pokemon that have above average HP right now are Pokemon-EX, and those already have more than enough bling factor that I doubt any kid is going to bat at eye if they have 50 or 150 HP.
 
Not just kids--it's the whole Timmy subset of players (who ARE largely kids but include plenty of teenagers and adults too). By increasing the numbers, you keep the Johnnies and the Spikes and you bring in the Timmies. Everybody's happy.

Of course, that's just a beneficial side effect. I would agree that power creep is the main reason for it. The 5th-generation creep seems to be bigger though. Actually, it feels like each creep has been bigger than the one before it. It's practically exponential. Or maybe logarithmic.
 
Next thing you will notice is that newer pokemon cards will have 2000 HP, with 500 HP attacks. The gameplay will be the same, just that, the numbers will be larger, and new cards will always beat old cards.
 
^Extreme exaggeration right there. Also your attacks aren't proportional to the HP. :p
Anyways, it's not something to worry about. Pokemon appears to be trying very hard to keep their Pokemon HP under 200. (the highest amount of HP set by Wailord) Also there is something to notice. In the original set the top HP Pokemon were Charizard and Chancy at 120. Charizard was a stage 2, Chansy was a Basic. Perhaps the most widely used stage 2 (Magnezone Prime) has only 140 HP, just 20 more then Charizard. The most widely used Basic (Mewtwo EX) has 170 HP just 50 more, but is worth twice as much in means of prize cards. It's really not much of a change in the HP department.
 
The Problem is this:
Tornadus, a Basic Pokémon, can do 80 for {C}{C}{C} and has 110 HP

Unfezant, a Stage 2 Pokémon from the very same set, can do 40 for {C}{C}{C} with a possibility of 80 or an energy discard, and has 120 HP.

Tornadus has 10 HP less, but with Eviolite (which Unfezant cannot use) it effectively has 130

Unfezant has Free Retreat, but with Skyarrow Bridge (something no Stage 1 or 2 can take advantage of) Tornadus also has free retreat

TPC has decided Evolution cards are useless and have decided to make it so the only playable cards are basics. Sure, we have Eelektrik, Magnezone and Vileplume, but Vileplume and Magnezone will rotate soon and Eelektrik is a stage 1 that EVOLVES (showing how ridiculous it is that they put its ability on a Stage 1 instead of its Stage 2).

So I wouldn't say there's really Power Creep, they're just getting rid of Evolution cards-- or at the very least making them unplayable. Hopefully Dark Rush reverses course or, better yet, Legendary Pokémon are banned from TCG (not gonna happen)
 
That may change when Stage 2 EXs come out. They will probably have something to make them playable. Only that may happen after they run out of Legendaries to make EX's.
 
venasour x said:
Only that may happen after they run out of Legendaries to make EX's.
Click to expand...

That will never happen. Do you know how many legendaries are still missing an EX card? I could count them.

  • Legendary Bird Trio
  • Mew
  • Suicune
  • Lugia
  • Ho-oh
  • Celebi
  • Regi Trio (excluding Gigas)
  • Lati@s
  • Jirachi
  • Deoxys
  • Cresselia
  • Heatran
  • Dialga and Palkia
  • Pixie Trio (Azelf, Uxie, Mesprit)
  • Arceus
  • Shaymin (Land Forme)
  • Victini
  • Musketeer Trio (plus Keldeo)
  • Tao Trio (excluding Tornadus)

And even some that I did not list, like Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza, haven't been released in English yet. It will take a long time for all of these legendaries to be released in English, and by the time that is over, EXs will probably not even be printed anymore.
 
On top of that don't forget that in the R/S/E EX era sometimes they did two different ex's based on types. Like Celebi had a Psychic ex and a Grass ex. Although we never got it in English there was a Japanese Lugia ex that was Psychic (in addition to the colorless) and a Jirachi ex that was Steel (on top of the Psychic).

So there could be two for Lugia...and technically even Ho-oh and the bird trio.

Celebi could again have two.

Lati@s could have two...maybe three depending on if they completley eliminate Dragons in the colorless department now that they have their own 'type'.

Jirachi could have two.

Deoxys has four forms.

Heatran, Dialga, and Palkia have two types.

Giratina has a second type that could be used. So could Rayquaza if they felt so inclined.

Arceus could (probably not though) have one ex for each type in the card game.

Victin could have two types.

The Musketeers could have two types, fighting plus their own types.

Let's not forget Melotta, which could have two types and Genesect which could have...at least two types, not counting how they deal with his Technoblast.

Let's not forget that some of them were done more than once. The Regis, the Bird Trio had two versions, Kyogre and Groudon had like five, Rayquaza had like four.

So yea, they'll really never run out of legendaries for that.
 
I am a huge base set / jungle / fossil fan. They are the pinnacle of what sets should be. My problem isnt that the HP is getting bigger persay, its that the HP for basics themselves are enormous when compared to some stage 2s. I think they need to dial is back some, though the odds of this happening is highly unlikely.
 
The Yoshi said:
[*]Tao Trio (excluding Tornadus)
[/list]
Click to expand...

Just a correction. That is the Kami/Genie trio (Tornadus, Thundurus & Landorus). The Tao Trio is Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem.


Well, regarding the HP. To be specific: In gen 1 and 2, the cap for regular pokémon was 120 HP, but there were few pokémon who actually had such HP.

In the EX era (gen 3), the highest value was still 120 HP (again, for regular pokémon), but now there were a lot more pokémon with such value and there were also the EXs which had usually between 140-160 HP (for the most part, stage 2 pokémon of course, and not counting some exceptions like Crobat ex). There was also Wailord ex with 200HP.

Come DP, and the cap was increased to 140 HP for regular pokémon, although, usually, only the bulkiest (Torterra for example) had such amount. There were still exceptions like Wailord (again) and Slaking Pt (with 150HP, only 10 more). Lv.X Pokémon, obviously, had more, with most stage 2 Lv. X pokémon having between 10-30 more HP than their lower level cards.

Finally, in BW, the limit was set to 150 HP for regular pokémon. You can see the usual amount they give to stage 2 pokémon depending on their bulkiness by looking at the starters HP. Serperior has 130, Samurott has 140 and Emboar has 150. 140 is the medium amount. The limit for EXs is, for now, 180 HP.

Also, stage 1 pokémon and basics have also increased their usual amount. Stage 1's went from 60-90 and basics from 40-60 (or 70, I think 60 is still the most used amount). Average numbers.
 
WatchingOwl said:
I am a huge base set / jungle / fossil fan. They are the pinnacle of what sets should be.
Click to expand...

I could do without 62/64 card sets that are still 25% filler because they print every rare twice, personally.
 
There's also a distinction to make between Basic Pokémon who can still evolve and Basic Pokémon who won't evolve. It's been like this since the beginning. I'd say Basic Pokémon who can still evolve begin at 30 HP and, at the beginning, were limited to 60 HP. Pokémon who won't evolve began at 50 HP, though 70 was the most common number, but except for Chansey, who was special due to her ridiculous in-game HP, never went above 90 HP, who were all wall-like Pokémon with low attack power like Onix and Lickitung.

Currently, the minimum is still 30, but it's now rare and reserved only for Pokémon who have very few learnable moves in-game like Magikarp, Caterpie, and Tynamo. However, the upper limit to Pokémon who can still evolve, again with the exception of Chansey, is now 70 HP, which you can see in the likes of high-retreat Pokémon Tepig and large Pokémon like Scyther. The Pokémon who don't evolve further has been split between regular Pokémon and Legendary Pokémon. Regular Pokémon seem to now have HP between 70 (like Stunfisk) and 100 HP (like Bouffalant). Legendary Pokémon begin at 100 HP (like Virizion--not that one) and go up to 130 HP (Reshiram and Zekrom), unless they're the cute Legendaries like Celebi and Victini, in which case they generally have between 60 HP to 90 HP; and in both classes of Legendary Pokémon, you can add 50 HP to these amounts.

Remember when the original Mewtwo had 60 HP?

The Yoshi said:
That will never happen. Do you know how many legendaries are still missing an EX card? I could count them.
Click to expand...

Does that mean there's a Manaphy EX and a Phione EX coming out soon?
 
Ophie said:
Does that mean there's a Manaphy EX and a Phione EX coming out soon?
Click to expand...

Hardly. TPC has much more EX worthy Pokemon to make EXs of. By the time Pokemon is actually ready to scrape the bottom of the legendary barrel like that, (which would presumably take many years) they will switch to a new form of ultra rare.
 
Well, I mean that they weren't on the list on that prior page. (Is that what the card designers think of Manaphy? I can see why they'd do so with Phione, but not Manaphy.)
 
It's a bit off topic, but I don't think that they plan on doing any of the cutsie Pokemon as EXs. Not because they see them as underdogs, but because they are really a let down to young children. As a child I know I would have been just as happy to pull a Mewtwo EX as a Reshiram EX. I would not on the other hand have been just as happy to see the holo boarder, know I got something awesome, pull it out of the card stack and find a Jirachi EX as opposed to a character like Reshiram.
 
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