Why No Love For Some Cards Like Tierno, Shauna, etc?

[Lightwood87]

Hello everyone,

As some of you may know, i'm pretty new in the Pokémon TCG scene, but i'm learning (step by step, right?!). The main thing that bugs me out right now is that when i see a video from some "pro" player on Youtube, they usually hate when someone uses cards like Shauna, Tierno, Roller Skate and so on...

I think i get it why you should use some cards instead of others. But let's see Shauna, for instance. People always say that N is better than Shauna, i know that on an early game drawing 6 cards instead of 5 could make a difference and in a late game you can mess with your opponent's hand. But it's a double-edge sword, isn't it? You also can be in a pretty bad spot if you have a good hand and someone use N on you in a late game, which could give you 1-2 cards instead of 5!

PS: I don't think people should run 4 Shaunas instead of 4 Ns. But i think that depending on what you are using in your deck, 1-2 Shaunas can help, no?

Also, i know Sycamore is way better than Tierno, but what if you build a deck where you can't discard your cards all the time, i think that have 1-2 Tierno in the deck can be helpful.

I just don't get it why all the hate on some cards. Can someone give me a real good reason why people hate when someone use them?

These are just some cards that i see people complaining about, but i'm pretty sure that there's much more out there. Also, if you guys could give some tips about some underrated Trainer cards, i'd appreciate!

 

[double o squirtle]

I think i get it why you should use some cards instead of others. But let's see Shauna, for instance. People always say that N is better than Shauna, i know that on an early game drawing 6 cards instead of 5 could make a difference and in a late game you can mess with your opponent's hand. But it's a double-edge sword, isn't it? You also can be in a pretty bad spot if you have a good hand and someone use N on you in a late game, which could give you 1-2 cards instead of 5!

N isn't normally used in the late game unless you're losing. From there on You're often already setup enough that you don't drastically need those extra two cards. There will always be some kind of double-edged sword in Pokemon, but usually when things like these happen, there's a fairly good reason behind it, and generally the good will outweigh the bad.

PS: I don't think people should run 4 Shaunas instead of 4 Ns. But i think that depending on what you are using in your deck, 1-2 Shaunas can help, no?

Oh yes. Having a Shauna can help. It's just that if you're running multiple Ns (or even Birch) it'd be a one of.

Also, i know Sycamore is way better than Tierno, but what if you build a deck where you can't discard your cards all the time, i think that have 1-2 Tierno in the deck can be helpful.

The majority of the decks that are played can afford to lose a few cards, and unless you're desperate, Sycamore's usually played with few cards in hand. I do agree with you though that Tierno is better than Sycamore in some cases, just mainly in rogue decks. Take Hand Fling for example. The deck requires you to have a large amount of cards in your hand and Sycamore can ruin it if you've got 20 some odd cards in your hand.

On a side note, I do think that Roller Skates is a little underrated. My brother loves to include these in his decks and I used to too. Getting those three cards for the price of only one item is great, the only downside, it's completely luck based. If you like to test your luck, go for it. However I think it's a little risky so I don't usually play them any more.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

I think a lot of the hate for these cards comes from the hatred for Theme Decks. These two cards (especially Tierno) are staples of Theme Decks, which constantly get mocked for their horrible deck building. IMO, Shauna is actually a good card (as a one-of) for people who can't shell out $50 for a playset of VS Seekers. Tierno, however, is terrible for any deck not named Hand Fling.

 

[bbninjas]

I wouldn't necessarily say Tierno is horrible, but rather it has use in a different sort of deck engine. The standard, aggressive, consistent engine of Sycamore is superior to Tierno because it nets far more cards. However, if you are running a deck that absolutely cannot discard resources, Tierno with the right draw support could be quite effective. I just think this hasn't been explored much due to Seismitoad's Item Lock, meaning a lot of the powerful Item draw support has been seldom used.

 

[Otaku]

Are we talking actual hate, or just pointing out that these two cards aren't good?

I had high hopes for each when they released. With Tierno, first we need to go back to Cheren. I was still getting used to the new "normal" for the game because I'd had to basically sit out the Platinum era, and I think I missed the last few DP sets as well. So I was still used to a card like TV Reporter (Supporter - Draw three cards. Then discard any one card from your hand.) was if not a staple, only outclassed because of the combination of power/reliability that was the Holon Trainer Engine: Holon Transceiver (Item - Search your deck for a Supporter card that has Holon in its name, show it to your opponent, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your deck afterward. Or, search your discard pile for a Supporter card that has Holon in its name, show it to your opponent, and put it into your hand.) made the various Holon Supporter cards (usually slightly inferior versions of other Supporters) superior. Yeah, I am going back quite a ways.

So, being so out of date I didn't know which of the newer cards were really worth it. There were several "Draw 2 cards. [Insert bonus effect]" options, plus the stuff that later I found out really worked. Cheren was just TV Reporter without the discard cost, so surely it would be good? Nope. Competitive decks require so many raw resources while setting up, and while there are certainly decks that would prefer not trashing their hand, they ended up being too slow to compete with the ones that either didn't mind or even could combo with it. Tierno gave me some renewed hope, as having eight such cards could give you a steady stream but nope, still not worth it, especially a few sets later when we received VS Seeker.

Shauna was a step backwards in the first place: Professor Oak's Research is one of the first Supporters and has the same effect. It was a good card for a while, and again because I forgot it had fallen out of favor even before a superior replacement was released (it was still decent-ish when I lost track of the competitive game, as mentioned earlier). Well we got Professor Oak's New Theory (Supporter - Shuffle your hand into your deck. Then, draw 6 cards.) during the HS-era, and I don't know if it became a staple right away, but by the time I was starting to comprehend the (then) current metagame it was... and it rotated out and left us sad. N was good but we really wanted Professor Oak's New Theory back. We constantly waited for a new final component to the "Supporter Trinity" that was N - Professor Juniper - Professor Oak's New Theory. We came close, with cards like Skyla and Colress being quite good but just falling a bit short. Shauna draws only one card less than Professor Oak's New Theory, so I thought surely she was it. If not when released, once rotation removed other options. Nope. Turns out that one card difference was basically the difference between competitive levels of reliable momentum and "just for fun" decks.

Roller Skates on the other hand is simply crowded out; it isn't bad, but the need for match-up specific tricks and alternative Item based draw (Acro Bike and Bicycle) plus Item-based Trainer search (Trainers' Mail) crowded it out. Oh, and for all four of these (Cheren, Roller Skates, Shauna, and Tierno) the space required for cards like Lysandre, Hex Maniac, etc. also crowded them out. It was easier to afford burning your Supporter on such effects if the turn before you had massive draw, or draw plus hand disruption. Battle Compressor plus VS Seeker almost gave Cheren, Tierno, and Shauna another shot, but it also proved better with the major draw cards, the secondary draw (and search) cards, and the various other potent Supporters.

 

[Lightwood87]

Thank you for all the answers guys, i can see a bit more clear why do people that plays competitive doesn't like those cards. I just couldn't understand all the sarcasm (and a bit of angry) of a Youtuber (that i see videos once in a while just to try to learn some new rules, plays, cards, etc.) getting mad because he lost a match to a Mega Altaria deck that shown up only Tierno and Shauna (i can't remember if it had even Sycamore) as draw supporters.

PS: I'd still appreciate if you guys could tell me some more trainers that people never use, but could have some potential. I'm just a casual player, so don't need to be nothing too fancy.

Weakness Policy has some playability? Saw a Volcanion/Volcanion EX running it these days.

 

[bbninjas]

I'd say that either that Youtuber was not very good at the deck he was playing, had a bad matchup or the player who built the Mega Altaria deck is quite good.

Weakness Policy is not generally used competitively because it's somewhat unreliable, however is fine in a casual setting if you're often seeing decks that your Pokemon have a Weakness too.

Anyways, here's some Trainers that have potential but I'm pretty sure are not used that often:

- Bent Spoon
- Red Card
- Pokemon Centre Lady
- Psychic's Third Eye
- Giovanni's Scheme (though I think it's being used a lot more, recently)
- Judge (because of N)
- Ace Trainer
- Faded Town (I think)
- Professor Birch's Observations

 

[double o squirtle]

- Bent Spoon
- Red Card
- Pokemon Centre Lady
- Psychic's Third Eye
- Giovanni's Scheme (though I think it's being used a lot more, recently)
- Judge (because of N)
- Ace Trainer
- Faded Town (I think)
- Professor Birch's Observations

You could probably add Switch and Olympia to that list too. They're not as good as Float Stone so I don't see them that often, but I'm always finding situations where either would be great.

 

[Otaku]

I just couldn't understand all the sarcasm (and a bit of angry) of a Youtuber (that i see videos once in a while just to try to learn some new rules, plays, cards, etc.) getting mad because he lost a match to a Mega Altaria deck that shown up only Tierno and Shauna (i can't remember if it had even Sycamore) as draw supporters.

1. Is this Youtube channel monetized? Exaggerated reactions are often an easy way to gain a following. The entire "angry reviewer" fad takes it to the Nth degree, but even just making a fool out of yourself sometimes can be enough.
2. Pokémon has exaggerated the luck aspect of the game quite a bit. It isn't as bad as the "Flippymon" nightmare of Neo era Baby Pokémon and Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111), but it is pretty bad. I have a hard time owning some (not all, just some ) of my losses and my victories because I know certain ones all boiled down to luck. Relevant to this, he might have felt he lost due to luck...
   
3. ...and as these Supporters are a sign of someone with an under developed card pool or beginner deck building skill, it can be quite infuriating to lose to them. What I mean by beginner deck building skill is that it is good to have Supporters in your deck (some players struggle to get over the once-per-turn aspect), and as we've stated these Supporters aren't truly bad, but they are better for beginners because you trade the power or versatility of competitive cards for reliable effects that have little to no cost or drawbacks (other than being under powered).

This Youtuber mostly just embarrassed his or herself, and that happens. =P

 

[Lightwood87]

Thank you again to everyone that replied, i'll take a look on the cards you guys mentioned in this thread and maybe give some feedback in a near future (i'm kinda broke, so i can't test all those cards right now).

This Youtuber mostly just embarrassed his or herself, and that happens. =P

Most likely.

 

[Purrloin]

I run a lot of Shauna. At least 3 per deck since her release, sometimes a 4th. I don't know anybody else who does this, lol, but she works well with my play style. I also find Lass's Special to be pretty underrated, especially in the modern Shaymin-heavy era. I know most people consider Tierno to be comparatively better (a consistent 3 versus 1 to 5), but after many tests I found I was drawing 4 on average with Lass and that was nifty enough to stick 1-2 of her into my decks.

I don't necessarily think cards like Shauna are good for everyone, though. The general rule of thumb I use: If I'm consistently losing games, or winning via prize draws, with half or more of my deck still undrawn, I need more heavy drawing cards like Sycamore. You shouldn't put yourself into a position where you lose because half the cards you need are inaccessible.