Discussion Why Stage 2 Pokemon are Rare in Today's Standard Format?

Mr. Rhyperior

Mr. Rhyperior

The Drill Pokemon. An evolve form of Rhydon.
Member
Hello, guys. Way back to the first Base Set, some playable Stage 2 cards are become a trend like Alakazam, Blastoise, Charizard, and so on. (Because I play TCG ONE, so I know all about these.)
Now, in today's meta, under PCL-on Standard. Only few Stage 2 Pokemon that are can be seen commonly in play like Greninja, Magnezone, or Serperior (not so much). What I curious of, are the Stage 2 Pokemon are off the line in the current meta?

What I am answering to my question in my mind is, I think so. Because, a Stage 2 needs to be a:
  • Fast
  • Energy Efficient
  • High Damge
  • EPIC Abilities
  • Lower RC possible
How about other's like Infernape? The Players nowadays only prioritized Stage 1 like Zoroark because it can save slots for Trainer cards.

So what do you think, are the Stage 2 Pokemon are off the line in the current meta, expcept those who are very playable?
 
It's because things like EXs and Megas have been able to output more damage consistently than a Stage 2. Even if they match damage output, Stage 2s are much slower... EXs take one turn, and Megas are only two. I would say that these are the reasons Stage 2s are seldom played.
 
Mr. Rhyperior said:
Hello, guys.
Click to expand...

Hiya! I'm going to challenge your opening axioms because... well because as far as I can tell they are wrong. I am not sure how much it matters to the discussion, though, so I'll spoiler tag it.

Mr. Rhyperior said:
Way back to the first Base Set, some playable Stage 2 cards are become a trend like Alakazam, Blastoise, Charizard, and so on. (Because I play TCG ONE, so I know all about these.)
Click to expand...

Not sure if TCG ONE provides an accurate representation of the old school metagame. Honestly history doesn't do the best either, because the Pokémon fad of the late 90's meant demand outstripped supply significantly until about 2001. From Base Set through Team Rocket, the only truly competitive Stage 2 Pokémon was Blastoise (Base Set 2/102; Base Set 2 2/130) and maybe Dark Blastoise (Team Rocket 3/82, 20/82; Legendary Collection 4/110) because you could tech one into a Rain Dance deck alongside the original Blastoise. Not sure about when Gym Heroes and Gym Challenge hit, but after those (so the Neo series of sets) it was the same (at least for Unlimited Format play).

A few other Stage 2 Pokémon from this period came close being competitive like Alakazam (Base Set 1/102; Base Set 2 1/130; Legendary Collection 1/110) and Venusaur (Base Set 15/102; Base Set 2 18/130; Legendary Collection 18/110), due to their potent Pokémon Powers, but the combination of Gust of Wind, Energy Removal, Super Energy Removal, and fast attackers destroyed the strategies around said decks even before Aerodacyl (Fossil 1/62, 16/62) and Muk (Fossil 13/62, 28/62; Legendary Collection 16/110). Charizard (Base Set 4/102; Base Set 2 4/130; Legendary Collection 3/110; DP: Storm Front 103/100) was collector good, not player good. In fact, as a competitive card it was quite, quite bad.

Now, if on TCG ONE players have figured out how to change these things, hey, let me know! I don't use TCG ONE and I've heard rumors about how players have finally figured out some new tricks with the older card cards. Also if you just don't care, hey I can let this drop. ^^' I find it relevant because there is actually more than a few similarities between say the early and mid BW-era and the early days of the game. Double Colorless Energy and PlusPower returned to the metagame. Gust of Wind was succeeded by Pokémon Catcher (the errata making it require a coin flip did not happen until shortly before XY released), especially once Pokémon-EX hit (and yes, even before) we had big, Basic focus decks dominating the metagame, and while we do lack many of the original "power Trainers", some nearly returned, with Professor Juniper as the Supporter version of Professor Oak (the latter counts as an Item), Computer Search returning as an Ace Spec, Scoop Up replaced by Super Scoop Up (requires a flip but better effect) or Scoop Up Cyclone (better effect but Ace Spec) or AZ (same effect but Supporter), etc.

Mr. Rhyperior said:
Now, in today's meta, under PCL-on Standard. Only few Stage 2 Pokemon that are can be seen commonly in play like Greninja, Magnezone, or Serperior (not so much). What I curious of, are the Stage 2 Pokemon are off the line in the current meta?

What I am answering to my question in my mind is, I think so. Because, a Stage 2 needs to be a:
  • Fast
  • Energy Efficient
  • High Damge
  • EPIC Abilities
  • Lower RC possible
How about other's like Infernape? The Players nowadays only prioritized Stage 1 like Zoroark because it can save slots for Trainer cards.

So what do you think, are the Stage 2 Pokemon are off the line in the current meta, expcept those who are very playable?
Click to expand...

A Stage 2 Pokémon does not need to be all those things, but yes they do help quite a bit. Some should be tweaked though for accuracy. In all cases, a Stage 2 lacking in one area can compensate in another.
  • Fast
    Basic Pokémon can hit the field first turn without any additional card effects. Stage 1 Pokémon need only a single turn provided the appropriate Basic has already been in play a turn. Stage 2 Pokémon need two turns, the Basic to survive long enough to Evolve, and the Stage 1 to survive long enough to Evolve, at least when Evolving manually and without shortcuts. Stage 2 Pokémon like Vileplume (XY: Ancient Origins 3/98) might still have been competitive without Forest of Giant Plants, but one cannot deny that the additional speed made it significantly more competitive.

  • Energy Efficient
    Does being a Bench-sitter that uses no Energy because it isn't attacking count? ;) Actually some Stage 2 Bench-sitters still need Energy for their Ability to be any good, so even that isn't an absolute. If a Stage 2 Pokémon is meant to be an attacker, then yes an efficient use of Energy is required, whether the damage output is high or low. Speaking of which...

  • High Damage
    A bit misleading; what is truly needed is hitting key damage amounts; overkill rarely helps and can even backfire against certain effects. Attack effects may also help, but by the time you've invested in a Stage 2, that seems unlikely so I'm not making it its own section.

  • Epic Abilities
    Not required unless the attacks aren't good enough to carry the card, but usually a worthwhile Stage 2 has an Ability that is at least useful if not quite potent.

  • Low Retreat Cost
    Not a necessity, but again a useful bonus.
I will add in two more that are not essential but typical of those that succeed:

  • Reduced Card Cost
    Another thing that helps is a way to reduce the "card cost" of putting something into play: Archie's Ace in the Hole and Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick were useful for this prior to rotation and Rare Candy is pretty much a must for most Stage 2 decks.

  • Worthwhile Lower Stages
    Unfortunately most Evolving Basics and/or Stage 1 Pokémon are little more than filler, but it really has helped a Stage 2 when they are not.

I am not sure if it will still manage, but Garchomp (XY: BREAKpoint 70/122) had at least some success both on its own and worked into other decks via Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick, again prior to rotation.
 
- This thread has been moved from TCG News & Discussion to Competitive Play because it discusses the competitive viability / playability of a certain card type -​
 
I was saying that thing because Basics and Stage 1's dominates the current meta. Stage 2s are being bunked off. That's why I am being concerned on this one.
 
Otaku said:
  • Reduced Card Cost
    Another thing that helps is a way to reduce the "card cost" of putting something into play: Archie's Ace in the Hole and Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick were useful for this prior to rotation and Rare Candy is pretty much a must for most Stage 2 decks.
I am not sure if it will still manage, but Garchomp (XY: BREAKpoint 70/122) had at least some success both on its own and worked into other decks via Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick, again prior to rotation.
Click to expand...

You're right. But Archie and Maxie are off the trend now because of the loss of Battle Compressor.

I was saying that thing because Basics and Stage 1's dominates the current meta. Stage 2s are being bunked off. That's why I am being concerned on this one.
 
Mr. Rhyperior said:
I was saying that thing because Basics and Stage 1's dominates the current meta. Stage 2s are being bunked off. That's why I am being concerned on this one.
Click to expand...

So are we discussing what might still work or why most don't work?

Unfortunately I'm still playing catch-up with the new metagame (yes still), so I don't know how much good I can do for the former, but the latter? That I've been studying for a while. The short version is the problem is not that Stage 2 Pokémon are under powered or too slow, but that several questionable design choices have been made (and keep being made) for the TCG.
 
Yeah sorry Otaku but the data is what the data is. There's no stage 2 pokemon in the current meta that's in the top 10.

I wish there were. I miss my Garchomp Gallade fighting deck!
 
21times said:
Yeah sorry Otaku but the data is what the data is. There's no stage 2 pokemon in the current meta that's in the top 10.

I wish there were. I miss my Garchomp Gallade fighting deck!
Click to expand...

There is a difference between the data and the conclusion drawn from it. If I fall down, maybe its because I tripped, or maybe it is because I was pushed: knowing which is caused me to fall is pretty important! The same is true here. I worry it is off topic (I'm fighting a sinus headache and cold, so it is even less obvious to myself than normal XD), so I'm going to spoiler tag it all. If we find out this is what the thread was meant to discuss, I can edit them out later. ;)

My crude estimate is that the metagame in Pokémon consists of the top 5% to the top 30% of the card pool; this is in general and not specific to this time. What we see doing well is (and historically has been) "the best of the best". Some say Stage 2 Pokémon are too weak, and that if we only would make them better, it would create a balanced metagame. Been there, done that, and it didn't work. After the early days of the game, which for players in North America (and some other locations) meant Base Set through Neo Genesis, after trying a few other "solutions", those then in charge of Pokémon outside of Japan shifted to concept of a rotating format such as we have now (except without Expanded). For years after that, everyone knew a Basic that did not Evolve was either going to be some kind of supporting Pokémon or an opener, with rare exceptions. In an attempt to balance out the advantages Basic Pokémon have in the game, they were slightly nerfed from where they were at while Evolutions got pretty crazy. We had problems almost identical to what we have now with Stage 2 Pokémon but reversed. When Basics started to catch up, more Evolution shortcuts were added (and we already had Rare Candy with its original effect!) and while that helped some Evolutions stay competitive, I found things less fun as it was all a rush to basically throw your deck at your opponent first to see who won and a lot of Pokémon were filler. Again, sound familiar?

The answer isn't making Evolutions stronger, the answer is proper game design and pacing. I want all fully Evolved Pokémon to be on even footing. From a game design standpoint, that gives the best odds that players will be able to use their favorite Pokémon in functional (if not competitive) decks. "Fully Evolved" includes Basic Pokémon which do not Evolve at all! Putting them on even footing means the only things dictating what each Pokémon can be and do is the source material and what would cause problems on a specific Stage... which is one of the places actual card design has failed us.

You see right now an Evolution has no time to Evolve! A Basic Pokémon can be the main attacker of a deck and do its thing ASAP, which means it doubles as a good opener. Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon tend to be little more than filler, turning Evolution purely into a "cost" and not a "feature". Ignoring for a moment how anything done proper is still going to suffer due to the existing Expanded and Standard card pool, we need Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon to have an actual function besides acting as a stepping stone. Doing this changes a Basic being a single card per copy from an insurmountable advantage into a tactical choice; go with the Basic main attacker for my deck and have more room for other cards or go with the Evolution that works with some cards I might want to include anyway. Imagine most Basic Pokémon having an Ability on par with an Item card and most Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon having a coming-into-play Ability on par with a Supporter.

Of course, that still doesn't handle the other bit, which is those super Basic Pokémon and speedier Evolved attackers; it doesn't matter if it is a "regular" Pokémon or a Pokémon-EX, if it is too fast, it is too fast. Instead, imagine if card design went back to inexpensive attacks being about set up; in fact do better than in the past by making any attack you can access ASAP not do any damage at all, and if it is a Basic meant as a main attacker, its "main attack" is not only pricey enough to preclude using first or second turn, but it might not have any attack it can use early on. Doing this means your mono-Basic deck cannot just be made of good attackers (like in the old Haymaker deck); instead some are going to be those "set up" or you are resigned to your main attacker just sitting there doing nothing for a turn or two.

One final is"front loading" HP scores on Evolving Pokémon, and inflating HP scores while (at first) slightly lowering damage output. In the video games, giving lower Stages significantly lower HP scores makes sense because unless you try to scenario break or take on opponent's that are clearly superior, things should stay in scale. Your Level 5 Starter only faces a Level 50 anything in a versus battle you choose to subject yourself too outside of the single player game, or got to an area you probably weren't supposed to in the single player game. The TCG doesn't work like that, so instead the designers need to raise the HP of Evolving Pokémon. I said I wanted to raise it all around though, didn't I? Yes, and I mean that even apart from that, it needs to be higher. I'll use some current HP scores to clarify. Say a Stage 2 has 150 HP; its Basic probably has about 50 HP and its Stage 1 about 100. Instead its Basic form ought to have about 100 and its Stage 1 form should have about 130, because unlike in the video game those lower Stages have to survive the first part of the match for the Stage 2 to ever hit the field.

As for increasing HP scores all around while toning down attacks a little, that is because HP creep has been needed in this game since Day 1. The source material allows Pokémon HP scores to fluctuate wildly; even skipping gimmicks, we are looking at HP scores from fully Leveled Up Pokémon in the video games ranging from like 100 to 700. In the TCG we have some cards that represent Pokémon which are clearly not meant to be their Level 100, Level 50, or even Level 25 selves and for the ones that are supposed to be as developed as possible, our range is 30 to 250. Except all damage is in units of 10, so its really 3 to 25, or only 22 different HP scores! Major constraint on card design and it makes it difficult to implement attack effects as you can only lose so much before the damage reduction really matters. Plus the designers like to hit big attack numbers that aren't so alien to the video games, so we have 100, 200, even 300 damage attacks being tossed around while TCG max HP scores are a third of their video game counterparts. HP in the TCG isn't the exact same as HP in the video games, but even using it to represent some additional traits (like Defense and Special Defense) it needs to be higher here. Now, since we also need to slow the pace of the game down, having a bunch of new cards with massively higher HP allows them to be slower without easily overwhelming what we have now, which is important especially in Expanded play.

Sorry this is disjointed, but I'm ill and kind of fuzzy headed. Plus I think I post something like this once every three months on this message board alone. XP
 
And that's not to say that there are no stage 2's out there that might not rise up - we're still pretty early in the new meta.

I believe that there's a place for Garchomp in this new meta, and a Gengar / Alakazam deck is on my list of decks to work on.

It's just right now, no stage 2 pokemon has been competitive against me. I'm 11-6 against Greninja, 8-4 vs. Talonflame, 5-1 against Delphox, 3-1 vs. Gengar.

I will say this - I have lost 4 out of 5 matches against Typhlosion, but I don't consider Typhlosion a top flight deck because it's so quirky. You can wallop an opponent one game and then lose in 2 rounds the next. It's just not consistent enough to be a competitive deck.
 
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that virtually all viable attacker Pokémon right now fall into two categories:

- They can hit 180+ damage on an attack through some means to OHKO a. Umber of common threats.
- They hit in the 100-160 range, but have an ability, other effect, or hp > 180 that keeps them from being OHKOd themselves

There are no stage 2s that are capable of satisfying either of these roles now, since Muscle Band has rotated (poor Garchomp), which pretty much eliminates any route to viability. Swampert PRC is about the closest I can think of to being useful, but it needs 5 energy to start hitting above 170, which takes 3 turns even with its Ancient Trait

Until we get stage 2s that can act as an EX stand in, I can't see a path to their being viable.
 
Of all the possible Stage 2 decks to run, the only one I would even consider running now is Garchomp-Carbink. There are several reasons for this particular choice:
  • Ran a very successful Garchomp deck last season
  • Low energy attack costs
  • Damage output-energy cost ratio is FANTASTIC
  • Free retreater
  • Damage output boost with Strong energy
  • Focus Sash
  • Extra damage output boost against EX Pokémon
  • Fighting and Strong energy can be recovered from discard pile
Despite losing Fighting Stadium and Korrina, this is still a respectable deck, IMO.
 
I think you might like Typhlosion. It fits all of your criteria. And with Rare Candy, Evosoda, and Wally, it takes no time to get it online. You run a deck with 20 or more fire energies with Energy Recycler and Super Rod. You will have yourself a fast-acting, high damage dealing, budget deck that is a lot of fun to play :) I mean 400 damage before weakness and resistance?! Yes please.
 
People need to remember the prize trade. Pokemon EX give up two prizes because they are powerful and require less resources to get going and may take 2 KOs before getting going. Stage 2 Pokemon require more to get going and now how low energy cost to compensate. Stage 2 Pokemon (stage 1 as well) should not be able to KO 2 EX Pokemon before going down itself.

Stage 2 Pokemon should not completely overpower EX Pokemon. Cards like Greninja, Garchomp,Gengar and that Typhlosion are a problem with this balance.
 
Typhlosions biggest problem is that it frequently can only power up 2 or 3 attackers. Plus, it frequently whiffs or only draws 1 energy early in the game before it can get non energy cards into its discard. If you have 3 or 4 good attackers, you can simply outlast it.

It's great for the versus ladder though because win or lose the games go fast!
 
Stage 2s got a few buffs in this meta actually, as seen with the Greninja line with BREAK and Gale Wings Talonflame. the BREAK mechanic in particular has helped some S2s actually get looked at again in better lights, and more counter options against the overabundance of Basics are coming like Lunala GX.

if anything it's a step up from when last I played in the BW days and the only thing Stage 2s were ever used as were Bench techs like Chandelure.
 
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