Discussion Why the Ultrabeasts are Lackluster.

[TheDude133]

So after seeing some of the UltraBeasts get their first scans, I gotta say, they are all very lackluster. Not a single one has an ability/attack that is game changing. I'll go over each card and the strength and weakness to each one.

Buzzwole GX: http://www.pokebeach.com/2017/08/buzzwole-gx-and-guzzlord-gx-revealed-at-worlds
Pros:
190 HP which is crucial for the big basics in the current meta with things like Gardevoir and Metagross around.
Jet Punch hits active and one bench for 30 each for one energy cost.
Knuckle Impact hits for 160 which can be buffed to 190 (All big basics) with a Choice Band and 210 (All Stage 1 GX's) with a Kukui+Band. Attack can be reset by Guzma/other switch methods.
Has synergy with Carbink BREAK, Registeel EX, Brooklet Hill and Scorched Earth.
Absorption GX has a massive 240 Damage cap un-buffed.

Cons:
Fighting Type. With only Darkrai as the primary fighting weakness, the Fighting typing doesn't favor Buzzwole moving forward. There isn't and Electric Type Pokemon that are announced that will hit the top of the Tier List (Raichu GX is a worse version of Darkrai EX, and we see how Darkrai EX is dropping on the Tier List), nor is there a Dark Type Pokemon that will show on the Tier List (we will talk about Guzzlord next). You could argue that it has good typing against Drampa GX and Silvally GX, but that's not enough to warrant the a Fighting Type to be good.
Weakness to Psychic<Garbodor GUR.
Retreat cost of 2. The reason why cards like Gardevoir GX can have a retreat of 2 and not be hurt by it, is because it plays DCE. Buzzwole GX however, doesn't want to play DCE, so that cost of two is now expensive. Not to mention it limits the searching ability to just Brooklet Hill and Ultra Ball.
Absorption GX is an expensive, early game attack only. With the attack lowering in power with every attack, 240/200/160/120/80/40, you can see that its GX attack is only useful within the first three prizes when dealing with decks like Fire or any Stage 1 GX deck and even then it's only useful in the first two prizes when dealing with Metagross and Gardevoir. With a cost of THREE Fighting energy, it's also extremely expensive early on.
Knuckle Impact is also too expensive. Having a cost of three Fighting energy hinders this card greatly. Has it been a Fighting and a DCE, that open the door up for this card to have an impact on the meta. But where is sits right now, you HAVE to pair it with Carbink BREAK for the energy acceleration. It also helps Gardevoir be closer to the OHKO range. Three energy on Garde+Choice band is a OHKO, or just 4 energy on Garde is an OHKO.

This is the most playable out of the UltraBeasts and it has too much going against it to be past Tier 3.

Guzzlord GX: http://www.pokebeach.com/2017/08/buzzwole-gx-and-guzzlord-gx-revealed-at-worlds

Pros:
Basic Pokemon with 210 HP.
Dark Type with no good Fighting decks in the meta.
Tyrannical Hole hits for 180 base, 210 Banded, 230 Banded+Kukui
Glutton GX allows you to take two extra prizes.
Resistance to Psychic>Grabodor GUR.
Searchable with Heavy Ball

Cons:
Eat Sloppily is useless. You mill your deck for energy acceleration, which means you have to play more energy and less consistency cards. Not to mention you mill said consistency cards.
Tyrannical Hole and Gutton GX have a FIVE energy cost. That is too high, and regardless of the damage/utility out of the attacks, makes this card unplayable.
Retreat cost of 4 means you still have to discard 2 with Alter of the Moone up. You could play four Guzma, but then you're playing Guzma defensively not offensively. Float Stone blocks the Choice Band Damage. Zoroark Step-In makes the deck less consistent with an added Pokemon like that doesn't contribute to your win condition.
Glutton GX has 100 base damage. Meaning you either use it on a 1-prize basic/stage 1 (i.e Beldum or Kirlia) to take 3 Prizes, or you have to damage something with Tyrannical Hole (Which is going to OHKO most things when Banded) and hope they don't have a way to heal that Pokemon (most likely will be Metagross or Gardevoir).

Overall, this card is terrible. If the attacks were one Dark energy less each, and Eat Sloppily didn't mill but instead shuffled the other cards back into your deck, then this card would see play.

Nihilego GX: http://www.pokebeach.com/2017/08/buzzwole-gx-and-guzzlord-gx-revealed-at-worlds
Pros:
Synergy with Alter of the Moone.

Cons: (Spoiler-Basically everything)
180 HP means it's easily OHKO'd by everything Tier 2 and above.
Psychic Typing isn't good and even worse it has a Psychic Weakness.
Nihilistic Light affects YOUR Pokemon as well. If it didn't then MAYBE you could play it in Alolan Muk GX.
Lock UP cost three Psychic and only does 120. The effect is easily worked around by Guzma.
Symbiont GX cost three Psychic to give your opponent 2 more prizes, which they will in turn immediately take off of this squishy GX.

By far the WORST of the UltraBeasts we've been shown so far. Literally everything about this card is bad.

Kartana GX: http://www.pokebeach.com/2017/08/kartana-gx-and-regice-from-sm4-revealed
Pros:
Cut Down has energy disruption that affects a fair amount of decks in the Tier 1&2 bracket.
Blade GX can steal games since it only cost 1 Metal Energy.
Retreat Cost of 1.

Cons:
Meta Typing means weakness to fire. (Metal Typing would normally be good because of Gardevoir GX and Alolan Ninetails GX, and the resistance to Garbodor GUR, but because of Kartana's HP and Gale Sword's damage this is a bad thing.)
170 HP.
Gale Sword while only costing a Metal and a DCE has a 70 base damage. 70. Base. Damage. that's 100 with a Band and 120 with Band+Kukui. While the 120 is good in the Gardevoir and Ninetails match-ups, it's also a conditional number to hit that gets harder with the loss of VS Seeker. And with its small 170 HP, can easily be return OHKO's by both of those Pokemon.

You could play this as a 1-of in Metagross, but there's way better 1-of techs to play. (i.e Genesect EX, Necrozma GX, Cobalion STS)

In total, all four of these Pokemon are bad. None of them are game changing and only Buzzwole GX might actually see competitive play. Unless there is heavy support for these guys (something like the Plasma Support that Deoxys EX, Luiga EX and Thunderus EX got) none of these four are playable. And SM4 as a whole is looking REALLY bad.

 

[CrownAxe]

Only a small percent of cards end up being good anyway. 4/7 ultra beasts being not good isn't abnormal at all

 

[TheDude133]

Only a small percent of cards end up being good anyway. 4/7 ultra beasts being not good isn't abnormal at all

True, but those last three have to be M-Ray levels of good. Here's what I predict.

Pheromosa will be Grass, probably 170 but hopefully 180 HP. 1 Retreat cost, three attacks, first being a single grass or a DCE attack, second being 1-2 Grass energy for <120 damage and the opponent can't attack next turn? GX will either be 1 Grass no damage, but have a random effect not catered to Pheromosa's nature or be a status effect+damage.

Xuritree will be Electric, 180 hp, 2 retreat. will probably have an ability resembling Eelectric from Noble Victories along with a electric+DCE main attack that has a energy dump cost. Not sure on the GX attack, but will probably cost 2-3 Electric energy.

Celesteela will be Metal 190 HP, 4 retreat two normal attacks, first costing 3 Metal second costing 4 energy total, 2-3 Metal 2-1 colorless for example. GX will have the same 4 energy cost.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

M Ray is good but its a glass cannon. I agree, though, that they are lackluster and not appealing.

 

[Kietharr]

Kartana isn't a bad card at all, combination of acerola/rainbow lets you take two special energies off the field in one turn if you can pull it off. Any deck that runs rainbow can run this to punish special energy and punish the 7 prize game that so many decks are playing these days with things like vulpix.

Everything else is just kind of meh, cards that could be fun to play casually but won't see competitive play (Buzzwole might considering it's basically Landorus-EX but with enough HP to survive the 180 magic number), which is more than the majority of cards in any given set have going for them.

 

[Merovingian]

If you're looking at the UBs from a competitive standpoint and expecting the next Gardevoir and Tapu Lele GX, you're going to have a bad time.

This set is shaping up to be 'sweet techs and weird stuff'.

Also, notice the 'Ultra Beast' designation. We are probably going to get some support for these things and that may tilt favorability towards them.

That said, I think Buzzwole is the most competitive of the 4 right now. Not sure about Standard. Maybe in Expanded (Xygarder Carbink, maybe?).

Guzzlord will DOMINATE prereleases (1 Guzzlord, 39 dark energy). It could be a fun deck outside of that, but fun isn't bad.

Maryam's is a card that would favor control deck...and control right now sucks. The meta is hostile towards control at the moment. The card is good, the meta needs to be sower to it to shine.

Nihilego is by far my favorite. It's power is like a Hypnotoxic Laser and I see it being used in meta decks because of it. The ability to drastically slow down the in-game tempo is something worth exploring.


And formpeople trying to predict what the last few UBs will do. Lee in mind, ALL their GX moves have to do with the prize cards.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I don't see anything special about Ultra Beast. They are just Legendary Pokemon by another name and they are almost never good.

 

[Merovingian]

I don't see anything special about Ultra Beast. They are just Legendary Pokemon by another name and they are almost never good.

Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko (promo), Jirachi EX, Shaymin EX, Darkrai EX(S), many Mewtwos, Landorus EX, Hoopa EX, Keldeo EX, Uxie (set up), Volcanion EX, Yveltal would like to speak with you.

The line goes further back.

 

[Ryn7321]

You way underplayed all of them. Most GX cards are playable, even Guzzlord. Guzzlord has a synergy with Mallow and Max Elixir, and it has the potential to take 4 prizes in one turn, potentially even 6. It would be a bit of a gimmick, but the Whimsicott from Guardians Rising(https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/sm-series/sm2/91/) can allow you to take 6 prizes with Guzzlord's GX attack.

Buzzwole GX is an INCREDIBLE card. It might not have type effectiveness against much, but what does Darkrai hit for weakness that's meta? Nothing. What does Gardevoir hit for weakness that's meta? Nothing. Put aside this "Con" of having little type effectiveness, and think about the benefits that come with the fighting type. Both Strong Energy and Regirock EX were printed in Fates Collide, which stays in standard. An extra 20 damage for each Strong Energy attached to the Buzzwole, and an extra 10 for each Regirock on the bench. This is an incredible combo, not to mention the fact that Fighting Fury Belt could be used for Buzzwole instead of Choice Band because the Strong Energy/Regirock make up for lost damage.

As for Nihilego GX, you didn't even try to look for the benefits. The card Chaos Tower may finally see play, as it prevents the effects of either Asleep and Paralyzed or Poisoned and Confused, depending on which way the player makes the card face. One of these completely blocks the effects of Nihilego. If you make the Chaos Tower face yourself when you bench the Nihilego, this card makes for an incredible combo when played with Alolan Muk GX, Darkrai GX, or even a more discreet Seviper deck perhaps. Contrary to your beliefs, cards can be used for the strength in the ability, not just the attacks. Admittedly, Nihilego's attacks are mediocre. This doesn't stop it though! Nobody used Jirachi EX for the attack, they used it for the ability. Nihilego may not function the same way Jirachi EX did, but at least Nihilego, as a support Pokemon, has 180 hitpoints.

Kartana GX is very similar to Nihilego, in the sense that it is a support Pokemon. It'll fit in the back of metal decks to help slow down your opponent and potentially save the game with that GX attack. While it could see play for its attacks, it would be a strenuous process to set up for it to do real damage. Potentially using the attack to shuffle Kartana back into the deck, then switching into the new Hoopa from Shining Legend? That's besides the point. Kartana would be awesome in energy discard decks and mill decks, but wouldn't be easy to use as a main attacker.

That aside, the Pokemon Company has done something with the Ultra Beasts that they haven't done with any other GXs. Underneath the HP, it says "Ultra Beast", similar to to the Team Plasma Pokemon. If the Ultra Beasts really are as underwhelming as some people believe, there will indefinitely be support cards, similar to Team Plasma. Perhaps "Beast Ball" and "Ultra Wormhole" item and stadium cards respectively. This "Ultra Beast" classification wouldn't have been added if there is no real use for it. I can guarantee that there will one day be a card that directly effects Ultra Beasts by referring to this classification, so I am extremely exited to see what they do to make these cards even more playable.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko (promo), Jirachi EX, Shaymin EX, Darkrai EX(S), many Mewtwos, Landorus EX, Hoopa EX, Keldeo EX, Uxie (set up), Volcanion EX, Yveltal would like to speak with you.

The line goes further back.

How about the other hundreds of cards that were legendary?

 

[TheDude133]

You way underplayed all of them. Most GX cards are playable, even Guzzlord. Guzzlord has a synergy with Mallow and Max Elixir, and it has the potential to take 4 prizes in one turn, potentially even 6. It would be a bit of a gimmick, but the Whimsicott from Guardians Rising(https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/sm-series/sm2/91/) can allow you to take 6 prizes with Guzzlord's GX attack.

Buzzwole GX is an INCREDIBLE card. It might not have type effectiveness against much, but what does Darkrai hit for weakness that's meta? Nothing. What does Gardevoir hit for weakness that's meta? Nothing. Put aside this "Con" of having little type effectiveness, and think about the benefits that come with the fighting type. Both Strong Energy and Regirock EX were printed in Fates Collide, which stays in standard. An extra 20 damage for each Strong Energy attached to the Buzzwole, and an extra 10 for each Regirock on the bench. This is an incredible combo, not to mention the fact that Fighting Fury Belt could be used for Buzzwole instead of Choice Band because the Strong Energy/Regirock make up for lost damage.

As for Nihilego GX, you didn't even try to look for the benefits. The card Chaos Tower may finally see play, as it prevents the effects of either Asleep and Paralyzed or Poisoned and Confused, depending on which way the player makes the card face. One of these completely blocks the effects of Nihilego. If you make the Chaos Tower face yourself when you bench the Nihilego, this card makes for an incredible combo when played with Alolan Muk GX, Darkrai GX, or even a more discreet Seviper deck perhaps. Contrary to your beliefs, cards can be used for the strength in the ability, not just the attacks. Admittedly, Nihilego's attacks are mediocre. This doesn't stop it though! Nobody used Jirachi EX for the attack, they used it for the ability. Nihilego may not function the same way Jirachi EX did, but at least Nihilego, as a support Pokemon, has 180 hitpoints.

Kartana GX is very similar to Nihilego, in the sense that it is a support Pokemon. It'll fit in the back of metal decks to help slow down your opponent and potentially save the game with that GX attack. While it could see play for its attacks, it would be a strenuous process to set up for it to do real damage. Potentially using the attack to shuffle Kartana back into the deck, then switching into the new Hoopa from Shining Legend? That's besides the point. Kartana would be awesome in energy discard decks and mill decks, but wouldn't be easy to use as a main attacker.

That aside, the Pokemon Company has done something with the Ultra Beasts that they haven't done with any other GXs. Underneath the HP, it says "Ultra Beast", similar to to the Team Plasma Pokemon. If the Ultra Beasts really are as underwhelming as some people believe, there will indefinitely be support cards, similar to Team Plasma. Perhaps "Beast Ball" and "Ultra Wormhole" item and stadium cards respectively. This "Ultra Beast" classification wouldn't have been added if there is no real use for it. I can guarantee that there will one day be a card that directly effects Ultra Beasts by referring to this classification, so I am extremely exited to see what they do to make these cards even more playable.

You miss the reasons why these cards are bad.

Guzzlord is bad because the extremely high energy cost is almost impossible to hit before it gets knocked out. Mallow+Elixer only gets you so far. You cant EFFECTIVELY charge up a Guzzlord GX to do anything. Everything in the Tier 1&2 brackets can 2HKO quickly and easily, so try setting up two of these will be impossible. THAT is why the card is bad.

Buzzwole, like i said, has the most potiential, but again, you have the wrong talking point. It's not the damage with Buzzwole, he has great damage (if you read my section on him, Knuckle Impact is a pro for its damage), its the Energy cost. 190 isn't THAT hard to hit in most Tier 1-2 decks, so this thing can easily be OHKO'd. You have to charge it with three FIGHTING every, meaning your only forms of acceleration THAT DONT CONFLICT WITH THE CARD/DECK, are Carbink BREAK and Max Elixer. Having to set up triple Fighting energy quickly is almost impossible, and it will take several turns to do, and against the top decks, you dont have that kind of time when you are at 190 HP. Fire can do it because it has Kaiwe as an accelerate.

Kartana is bad. If I was worried about special energy, I would play Enhanced Hammer. At least then it doesn't fill a bench spot, and have a very squishy 170 HP that can be easily Guzma'd up and OHKO'd for two prizes. And the problem with the GX attack, is that Kartana won't live in the active spot against anything. You give them two more prizes, then they immediately take them on their turn. You can't use it as a deck and cover card because it takes two turns to set up. If the attack was a single DCE, then you could potentially find a way to do it, but its a Metal and a DCE, meaning you cant tag out. And as far as the Safegaurd Hoopa/Ninetails go, I explained in another thread why they are both bad.

Remember when i said that if Nihilego didn't affect your active, it would be played in Alolan Muk, i said that because you can't guarantee that you have the Chaos Tower up at all times. Let me do some math for you. Alolan Muk has a 10 base, two conditions that's 150, Choice Band it and you have 180, poison makes 190. Great number, BUT, you HAVE to have the Chaos Tower out, meaning decks that play stadiums and field blower hurt you. If you don't have tower out, you can't drop Nihilego unless you have Float Stone on Muk and a second charged an ready to go. Out of 100 games, you'll find that you have to hold Nihilego (When you find it, since its not searchable except through Ultra Ball) until the right time because you dont have the Tower EVERY time. Where as things like Salazzle you can drop every turn. Not to mention the best part about Alolan Muk is HP and prize counts of the deck. 220 isn't that easy to hit for A LOT of decks, so it can tank a hit. And your status enablers are all 1-prize targets. So giving people a 180 target that is just sitting on the Bench hurts you more than it helps you.

You have to take into account the kind of meta we are in. Everything dies is 1-2 hits, and that damage starts on on your second or third turn for a lot of decks, so you have to account for how long will it take to be set-up. Guzzlord and Buzzwole just take too long. Kartana doesn't do anything to decks like Metagross, VikaBulu, or Fire because they don't run special energy. Nihilego is too high-risk-high-reward in an already bad deck. If they do come out with UB support that helps them, then fine, they do. But as of right now, everyone of these cards are bad.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Not all of the cards in Crimson Invasion have been revealed, so I honestly think it's too early to think that all of the UBs revealed so far are bad. We might get Ultra Beast support as the weeks go by that would make the UBs we have either better or worse.

The two UBs that I see the most potential with are Buzzwole and Kartana. If anything, Buzzwole is similar to Landorus EX from the Gen V sets in that both have a 1-energy attack that hits 30 to the active and another 30 to the bench. That's good for softening up the bench before going for the finish. A 3-energy attack didn't stop Landorus from succeeding and I don't see how Buzzwole would be in the same boat. Yes, meta trends are a thing, but for me, I'd rather use Buzzwole's Jet Punch to soften up the opposition while I charge up for Knuckle Impact or Absorption. Gardevoir is an admittedly shaky matchup though.

While it's true that Kartana takes up a bench space and is shut down by Alolan Muk and Garbodor, I can see the appeal it has over Enhanced Hammer because the former doesn't contribute to Garbodor's Trashalanche. Kartana is also searchable by Ultra Ball or Alolan Vulpix, while Enhanced Hammer can only be searched by Skyla. Attaching a Rainbow Energy to Kartana, then scooping it up with Acerola is also a thing to reuse the ability at a later time.

 

[Lanstar]

No offense... But I'd rather wait until every card in the set is released and played before holding any judgment to the beasts. I say this because everyone tends to look too much at face value at first, void of context of how they really end up being played.

One example: Lapras-GX

At first, I saw nearly everyone downplaying the card when first released:

"Draw 3 Cards?! N BAIT!!!!
Blizzard Burn?! 3 energy attack is too costly, and bad recoil effect!
Ice Beam-GX?! Oh, Escape Rope and Center Lady is everywhere. Does nothing!

Once the set was released, however, people started playing it in a stall fashion that at the time even stopped Decidueye decks, and made some good finishings in many tourneys. After that, everyone was concerned about that playstyle, and had to check it somehow.

Of course, GRI introduced issues with the deck afterwards. However, people never expected Lapras-EX to be that good at the time - yet it became good, due to many experiments and deck testing.

My point: Whether or not these cards are good shouldn't be placed this much at face value until people are actually allowed to test and deck build with them!

 

[CaptZero]

Making the call that ultra beasts are lackluster before you know what kind of support they might have seems short sighted. They aren't just standard GXs after all.

 

[TheDude133]

No offense... But I'd rather wait until every card in the set is released and played before holding any judgment to the beasts. I say this because everyone tends to look too much at face value at first, void of context of how they really end up being played.

One example: Lapras-GX

At first, I saw nearly everyone downplaying the card when first released:

"Draw 3 Cards?! N BAIT!!!!
Blizzard Burn?! 3 energy attack is too costly, and bad recoil effect!
Ice Beam-GX?! Oh, Escape Rope and Center Lady is everywhere. Does nothing!

Once the set was released, however, people started playing it in a stall fashion that at the time even stopped Decidueye decks, and made some good finishings in many tourneys. After that, everyone was concerned about that playstyle, and had to check it somehow.

Of course, GRI introduced issues with the deck afterwards. However, people never expected Lapras-EX to be that good at the time - yet it became good, due to many experiments and deck testing.

My point: Whether or not these cards are good shouldn't be placed this much at face value until people are actually allowed to test and deck build with them!

Lapras is a very different case however. It had a deck that could center around it. For example, the attack restriction is canceled out by Manaphy EX. the energy cost was cancelled out by Palkia EX. Collect is a mind game attack, thinking a attack like that is N bait is the wrong way to think. You also have to take into account their hand and board state as well. "DO they have N, if they do, what are they shuffling back? What will they get with their new hand? Do they have access to the N in the first place?" You put pressure on them because they either N, which may not be their optimal play, or leave you with three extra cards. Lapras was always going to be a good card when it came out because it had the support backing it. It had the Manaphy, it had the Glaceon, Articuno, Palkia. It had supporting Pokemon, thus Waterbox was born. Buzzwole doesn't have the same luxury. Not to mention with a Weakness to Grass, which at the time was GOD AWFUL, it didn't have anything that could easily check it, unlike Buzzwole, who's weakness happens to be one of the best decks in the game right now.. It has a good Volcanian match-up, which was rising in popularity at the time, and had good Mega-Deck match-ups with Glaceon EX. You're comparing two cards that have two very different decks that do two very different things. And the Quad Lapras stall was only good because of the Collect attack in the first place, which Buzzwole doesn't have access to. That's like comparing Yveltal EX to Darkrai EX. They do two very different things.

And as far as everyone saying "wait til the rest of the support is release to see what happens." Do you know how broken the cards would have to be to make something like Guzzlord playable? Think about that for a second. Guzzlord, who's attacks have a 5 energy cost, would need a trainer that has broken levels of acceleration, and has to be Guzzlord specific. If you make the UB support generic to all the UB but its good enough to make Guzzlord playable, then something like Buzzwole would be Tier 0. You're being way too optimistic about any kind of UB support that will make these four cards good. And if they don't have any UB support, then what is the excuse? How are you going to make Nihilego, Guzzlord, or Kartana playable, because those three are garbage. Buzzwole, like I've said before, has potiential with Carbink BREAK, but even then the deck is Tier 3 at best in the current meta.

 

[Gengar master]

Kartana GX is very nice in a deck that plays rainbows (maybe a slot in drampa/garb) to steal the last prize if you don't use big wheel GX in that game.
I think you are definitely under rating Guzzlord GX, sure it's a lot of energies but it has that crazy GX attack. In expanded, it seems reasonable to use it as 1 of in turbo dark. Soften up an ex/gx then easily power it up with max elixirs and dark patches. You can even use EXP share if you really want.
Buzzwole GX is neat because it's a better Landorus EX. The other attacks aren't too good but can be used nicely.
Nihelgo GX is decent but because Garb exists...

 

[TheDude133]

Kartana GX is very nice in a deck that plays rainbows (maybe a slot in drampa/garb) to steal the last prize if you don't use big wheel GX in that game.
I think you are definitely under rating Guzzlord GX, sure it's a lot of energies but it has that crazy GX attack. In expanded, it seems reasonable to use it as 1 of in turbo dark. Soften up an ex/gx then easily power it up with max elixirs and dark patches. You can even use EXP share if you really want.
Buzzwole GX is neat because it's a better Landorus EX. The other attacks aren't too good but can be used nicely.
Nihelgo GX is decent but because Garb exists...

This is for standard, expanded means nothing to my discussion, which is why I've talked multiple times about the CURRENT META.

If you are using Kartana solely for it's GX attack, then you have to look at it like this. How many times, out of 100 games are you going to be in the situation where you can use it. Now out of that same 100 games, how many times do you start it, how many times do you have the Rainbow, how many times is it prized? Using a card for a very small amount of situations is bad. Having to deal with a 7-prize game sucks, yes, BUT, how many times is the Kartana going to save you in those 7-prize games? And are you really not going to use Big Wheel GX so you can POTENTIALLY use Blade GX? You can say there are games where you dont use it, but that goes back to the 100 games scenario. Kartana is bad, too little damage, ability isn't useful in the current meta, too little hp, and both attacks don't have good enough damage/effects to warrant being played in anything.

 

[PlatinumDude]

Lapras is a very different case however. It had a deck that could center around it. For example, the attack restriction is canceled out by Manaphy EX. the energy cost was cancelled out by Palkia EX. Collect is a mind game attack, thinking a attack like that is N bait is the wrong way to think. You also have to take into account their hand and board state as well. "DO they have N, if they do, what are they shuffling back? What will they get with their new hand? Do they have access to the N in the first place?" You put pressure on them because they either N, which may not be their optimal play, or leave you with three extra cards. Lapras was always going to be a good card when it came out because it had the support backing it. It had the Manaphy, it had the Glaceon, Articuno, Palkia. It had supporting Pokemon, thus Waterbox was born. Buzzwole doesn't have the same luxury. Not to mention with a Weakness to Grass, which at the time was GOD AWFUL, it didn't have anything that could easily check it, unlike Buzzwole, who's weakness happens to be one of the best decks in the game right now.. It has a good Volcanian match-up, which was rising in popularity at the time, and had good Mega-Deck match-ups with Glaceon EX. You're comparing two cards that have two very different decks that do two very different things. And the Quad Lapras stall was only good because of the Collect attack in the first place, which Buzzwole doesn't have access to. That's like comparing Yveltal EX to Darkrai EX. They do two very different things.

And as far as everyone saying "wait til the rest of the support is release to see what happens." Do you know how broken the cards would have to be to make something like Guzzlord playable? Think about that for a second. Guzzlord, who's attacks have a 5 energy cost, would need a trainer that has broken levels of acceleration, and has to be Guzzlord specific. If you make the UB support generic to all the UB but its good enough to make Guzzlord playable, then something like Buzzwole would be Tier 0. You're being way too optimistic about any kind of UB support that will make these four cards good. And if they don't have any UB support, then what is the excuse? How are you going to make Nihilego, Guzzlord, or Kartana playable, because those three are garbage. Buzzwole, like I've said before, has potiential with Carbink BREAK, but even then the deck is Tier 3 at best in the current meta.

You can't assume that cards are bad just at first glance and current meta trends. Meta trends can, and will, change when Crimson Invasion is released. That might make the UBs either better or worse than what you assume will be, so just sit tight and wait for Crimson Invasion before coming up with a final judgment.

I'll use Guardians Rising as an example: before that, people relentlessly used items like Trainers' Mail for consistency in setting up. Now, with Guardians Rising, there came a second Garbodor, which punished opponents for using their items recklessly with Trashalanche; most players adapted to this by removing Trainers' Mail and being more cautious on how many items they use in a game.

Remember that Japan gets Crimson Invasion before the US/Canada/UK/wherever else, so they have plenty of time to playtest the cards in it and who knows, they might come up with something good with the Ultra Beasts. They've come up with deck archetypes that came out of left field before like Garbodor/Golisopod and Alolan Ninetales.

 

[Lanstar]

Lapras is a very different case however. It had a deck that could center around it. For example, the attack restriction is canceled out by Manaphy EX. the energy cost was cancelled out by Palkia EX. Collect is a mind game attack, thinking a attack like that is N bait is the wrong way to think. You also have to take into account their hand and board state as well. "DO they have N, if they do, what are they shuffling back? What will they get with their new hand? Do they have access to the N in the first place?" You put pressure on them because they either N, which may not be their optimal play, or leave you with three extra cards. Lapras was always going to be a good card when it came out because it had the support backing it. It had the Manaphy, it had the Glaceon, Articuno, Palkia. It had supporting Pokemon, thus Waterbox was born. Buzzwole doesn't have the same luxury. Not to mention with a Weakness to Grass, which at the time was GOD AWFUL, it didn't have anything that could easily check it, unlike Buzzwole, who's weakness happens to be one of the best decks in the game right now.. It has a good Volcanian match-up, which was rising in popularity at the time, and had good Mega-Deck match-ups with Glaceon EX. You're comparing two cards that have two very different decks that do two very different things. And the Quad Lapras stall was only good because of the Collect attack in the first place, which Buzzwole doesn't have access to. That's like comparing Yveltal EX to Darkrai EX. They do two very different things.

And as far as everyone saying "wait til the rest of the support is release to see what happens." Do you know how broken the cards would have to be to make something like Guzzlord playable? Think about that for a second. Guzzlord, who's attacks have a 5 energy cost, would need a trainer that has broken levels of acceleration, and has to be Guzzlord specific. If you make the UB support generic to all the UB but its good enough to make Guzzlord playable, then something like Buzzwole would be Tier 0. You're being way too optimistic about any kind of UB support that will make these four cards good. And if they don't have any UB support, then what is the excuse? How are you going to make Nihilego, Guzzlord, or Kartana playable, because those three are garbage. Buzzwole, like I've said before, has potiential with Carbink BREAK, but even then the deck is Tier 3 at best in the current meta.

No one thought *any* of this when Lapras-GX came out. They just saw water box as a poor deck at the time, and that this card never made the deck much better. Again, think "hindsight": It took until someone created a strong deck around the card before people started to see it value.

This will be no different on how I would judge the Ultra Beasts: Hold off the extreme criticism until the rest of the set comes out, and people actually deck build and test them!

 

[Gengar master]

This is for standard, expanded means nothing to my discussion, which is why I've talked multiple times about the CURRENT META.

If you are using Kartana solely for it's GX attack, then you have to look at it like this. How many times, out of 100 games are you going to be in the situation where you can use it. Now out of that same 100 games, how many times do you start it, how many times do you have the Rainbow, how many times is it prized? Using a card for a very small amount of situations is bad. Having to deal with a 7-prize game sucks, yes, BUT, how many times is the Kartana going to save you in those 7-prize games? And are you really not going to use Big Wheel GX so you can POTENTIALLY use Blade GX? You can say there are games where you dont use it, but that goes back to the 100 games scenario. Kartana is bad, too little damage, ability isn't useful in the current meta, too little hp, and both attacks don't have good enough damage/effects to warrant being played in anything.

You are basically saying they are garbage which they are not. Also, expanded is current meta also, more so then before, you should've specified you were talking about standard.

Also, not saying people will only use Kartana GX's attack. I would only put it in (maybe) Metagross, but it isn't something to throw in bulk.