Discussion Will Burning Shadows Change the Meta??

Jaypenny777

Jaypenny777

Aspiring Trainer
Member
My thoughts: Hey guys so I am living in Japan for the next few years and Friday when the new series (The Fighting Rainbow and Light Consuming Darkness aka Burning Shadows) dropped I was first in line to purchase it. I love the art works on the new series but I don't think it has a lot to offer like guardians rising did competitively. There are a few cards here and there that have potential. (Marshadow GX, Alolan Muk GX, Noivern Gx) I am sure I missed a few that possible could be good. Personally I think the Kindra card could be good with decidueye GX. But really that's it, I am not impressed with this set. Hopefully for the English set they add a few more cards. I do like the Golispod GX card. I played in my first Japanese Tournament yesterday and they allowed the new set to be played. Also I could only use Japanese cards so I had to throw together something with the cards I had or could find. I ran Tapu bulu GX/ Lurantis GX deck. Before the tournament I opened the Light Consuming Darkness box and pulled Gardevoir GX, Gardivor GX full art, Golisopod GX, and Marshadow GX. I decided to throw in Golisopod GX and see what happened. So I was like hey my active pokemon gets knocked out Golispod can come in and do 120 damage with his first impression attack (30+ damage - This attack does 90 more damage if this pokemon became your active pokemon during this turn). Realized in the middle of the match from the judge that Golisopod's attack effect only works if he is switched out during your turn with things like switch, escape rope, guzma, or retreating your active not if he becomes the active from your pokemon being knocked out. Because technically it is still your opponents turn when you replace your knocked out pokemon with a new active. Yeah learned the hard way and cost me the match lol. So Golisopod GX is still decent but not as good as I thought. But anyways just wanted to post my thoughts and see what your guy's thought are.

PEACE!
 
I think you're very correct in saying that it won't impact the format as much as Guardians Rising did, but frankly I wouldn't expect it to considering that hasn't occurred in a long time. I'm excited for all the cards you mentioned, as well as a few of the supporters and trainers like Guzma, Po Town, Acerola, etc. But I think that the set isn't going to have the same impact on Worlds as Guardians rising had on the meta as a whole. On that note, I also don't think some crazy new Burning Shadows deck is going to come out of left field and win worlds either. But we will see in time.
 
Getting scoop up back is great. I think Wob will be good too. But this is a normal set. It just seems disappointing in comparison to the last 2 sets which were 2 of the greatest sets ever.
 
Latte1504 said:
Could you tell me how you are setting up 2 Stage 2s before a Volcanion nukes you?
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I agree that 2 stage 2's is way too clunky unless they were grass (Decidueye Kingdra might be cool), but volcanion actually sets up pretty slow because they need to use the baby to spread energy, then the actual attackers start going off, however the baby would be doing enough to one shot unevovled seadra or horsea. I'd be more worried about decks like bees, or decidueye/plume.
 
Actually, if you want Kingdra to be relevant, you are gonna have to look at Tapu-Koko.

4 Kingdra
1 Seadra
4 Horsea
3 Tapu-Koko (Mini)
2 Tapu-Lele GX
1 Oricorio
14 Pokemon

4 Professor Sycamore
4 N
2 Guzma
1 Skyla
11 Supporters

4 Ultra Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 Choice Band
4 Puzzle of Time
2 Field Blower
1 Switch
1 Super Rod
23 Items

2 Brooklet Hill
2 Stadiums

8 Water Energy
4 Double Colorless
12 Energy

This is a theory list I've been working with. It still has kinks in it, but long story short, you don't use Kingdra's second attack as much as the first. you want Koko out early, spread damage, then snipe bench. Some of the kinks I'm facing right now is Active-Locking with Guzma. It's not as easy as Lysandre to lock someone up front and snipe the bench Post-Rotation.
 
As for my thoughts on the Meta after the set and before worlds, here's what you're looking at:

Noviern Variants (Darkrai, Garbodor, Eeveelutions with either a Espeon focus or Umbreon Focus) are going to be somewhere near Tier 2
Gardevoir/Xerneas is going to be Tier 2 edge of Tier 1.
Kingdra, Golsiopod, Dusknoir all Tier 3+

Marshadow GX will be good in Rock decks or something that uses Rainbow energy.
Darkrai GX will be a 1/2 of in Darkrai EX for its ability.

And that's pretty much it. Nothing else in the set is worth playing until rotation. It won't change anything at worlds.
 
In my opinion this set might actually impact the expanded format more than standard. Marshadow GX with Night March will be a nightmare, as now you have a Night Marcher with A) 150hp or 190 with fury belt, and B) That can hold strong energy, use korrina, and fighting stadium. And you can put all of your Pumpkaboo/Joltik/Lampent in the discard and not worry about benching any
 
Kavross said:
In my opinion this set might actually impact the expanded format more than standard. Marshadow GX with Night March will be a nightmare, as now you have a Night Marcher with A) 150hp or 190 with fury belt, and B) That can hold strong energy, use korrina, and fighting stadium. And you can put all of your Pumpkaboo/Joltik/Lampent in the discard and not worry about benching any
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If you are using Strong Energy, you aren't using DCE and are going too slow. If you are using Korrina, you are too slow. You are a GX, you give up 2 prizes. It is ,maybe a 1-of.
 
Latte1504 said:
If you are using Strong Energy, you aren't using DCE and are going too slow. If you are using Korrina, you are too slow. You are a GX, you give up 2 prizes. It is ,maybe a 1-of.
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Agreed, I don't think Marshadow will be that big in Night March. The deck's strength is winning using single prize attackers, having too many 2 prize 'mons on top of already running Shaymin EX/Tapu Lele GX will counteract that advantage.

Without Double Dragon Energy, I seriously doubt anyone will get far with Noivern GX in Standard, and Pokemon Ranger makes it harder for it to lock the opponent. In Expanded, Seismitoad EX is better.

With Blacksmith however, Ho-Oh GX stands a pretty decent chance in Expanded. Time will tell.
 
Everyone keep in mind Noibat is not a dragon type. Not only does Po Town help Espeon EX if they can't get rid of it, but just devolving them discards the DDE, and if they try to attack again with it, just use Miraculous Shine again. Noivern is easily slapped by Espeon, Golisopod by Volc, and Darkrai by anything faster than it, which is a lot. Garb exists to keep the item counts low, meaning if you can find a deck that is fast and beats garb, you've found your new meta. Not much like that, except Golisopod. Golisopod should play 3 at least Guzma, to keep on frequently putting up Trubbishs to stop the trashalanche monster from ever existing in the first place, however Golisopod is dunked by Volc, and Volc dunked by Garb. I don't think Burning Shadows will change the meta real much, but it will like every side leave it's mark on the meta, even if it is small.
 
Jaypenny777 said:
My thoughts: Hey guys so I am living in Japan for the next few years and Friday when the new series (The Fighting Rainbow and Light Consuming Darkness aka Burning Shadows) dropped I was first in line to purchase it. I love the art works on the new series but I don't think it has a lot to offer like guardians rising did competitively. There are a few cards here and there that have potential. (Marshadow GX, Alolan Muk GX, Noivern Gx) I am sure I missed a few that possible could be good. Personally I think the Kindra card could be good with decidueye GX. But really that's it, I am not impressed with this set. Hopefully for the English set they add a few more cards. I do like the Golispod GX card. I played in my first Japanese Tournament yesterday and they allowed the new set to be played. Also I could only use Japanese cards so I had to throw together something with the cards I had or could find. I ran Tapu bulu GX/ Lurantis GX deck. Before the tournament I opened the Light Consuming Darkness box and pulled Gardevoir GX, Gardivor GX full art, Golisopod GX, and Marshadow GX. I decided to throw in Golisopod GX and see what happened. So I was like hey my active pokemon gets knocked out Golispod can come in and do 120 damage with his first impression attack (30+ damage - This attack does 90 more damage if this pokemon became your active pokemon during this turn). Realized in the middle of the match from the judge that Golisopod's attack effect only works if he is switched out during your turn with things like switch, escape rope, guzma, or retreating your active not if he becomes the active from your pokemon being knocked out. Because technically it is still your opponents turn when you replace your knocked out pokemon with a new active. Yeah learned the hard way and cost me the match lol. So Golisopod GX is still decent but not as good as I thought. But anyways just wanted to post my thoughts and see what your guy's thought are.

PEACE!
Click to expand...

I actually think the set will have some strong shining stars on its own. That Darkrai GX card (which will be in our set over here) is going to be nasty. Gardevoir GX might be a game changer on its own. It will laugh at Garbodor decks and that ability might turn out to be downright broken. Golispod GX looks amazing as well. There are so many ways to hit that switch condition that it will pretty consistently be hitting those numbers. I mean, you don't even have to do anything crazy. Just spit balling, but you could run Alter of the Moone, attach Grass and attach darkness to two of them and just switch them back and forth. And that is the "bad" way to do it. With Guzma, Olympia, Ropes, Switch, Zoroark, Solgaleo, just a normal retreat, etc., that card is going to happen and it is going to be awesome.

I also happen to think Acerola is going to shake up the meta a lot as well. That alone is enough to potentially make Tapu Koko GX decks run. Guzma is going to be incredible for some decks like Volcanion, Lapras, Metagross (maybe, less certain on this one). Kiawe makes certain strategies viable right off the bat (T2 Pulverizing Pancake is a thing with this card). It powers up something like Lapras EX for big numbers T2. I mean, that card alone might make certain decks viable that had no shot in the past due to ridiculous energy requirements.

Overall, I don't know that I think this will be Guardians Rising level of change, but I think we might be looking at Sun and Moon impact and that was a really good set.
 
rainyman123 said:
Everyone keep in mind Noibat is not a dragon type. Not only does Po Town help Espeon EX if they can't get rid of it, but just devolving them discards the DDE, and if they try to attack again with it, just use Miraculous Shine again. Noivern is easily slapped by Espeon, Golisopod by Volc, and Darkrai by anything faster than it, which is a lot. Garb exists to keep the item counts low, meaning if you can find a deck that is fast and beats garb, you've found your new meta. Not much like that, except Golisopod. Golisopod should play 3 at least Guzma, to keep on frequently putting up Trubbishs to stop the trashalanche monster from ever existing in the first place, however Golisopod is dunked by Volc, and Volc dunked by Garb. I don't think Burning Shadows will change the meta real much, but it will like every side leave it's mark on the meta, even if it is small.
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Noibat being a normal type/not being dragon doesn't affect to many things.

Po town, while being a Team Magma Secret Base for Stage 1's, is not better than Alter of the Moone in Espeon decks. And as far as the Espeon vs Noivern Match-up goes, you need more factors to take into account, for example. First, Noivern/Drampa would be favorable in the Espeon/Garb match-up if either side plays Po Town. Noivern/Garbodor however would get stonked by Espeon/Garb. Noivern/Darkrai EX would maybe have a bit more of a even matchup because of the Darkrai EX focus, but that's result dependant.

As far as meta changing aspects go, nothing will change, none of the cards coming out of BUR will change the meta until rotation, then things will get more interesting.
Fayld said:
I actually think the set will have some strong shining stars on its own. That Darkrai GX card (which will be in our set over here) is going to be nasty. Gardevoir GX might be a game changer on its own. It will laugh at Garbodor decks and that ability might turn out to be downright broken. Golispod GX looks amazing as well. There are so many ways to hit that switch condition that it will pretty consistently be hitting those numbers. I mean, you don't even have to do anything crazy. Just spit balling, but you could run Alter of the Moone, attach Grass and attach darkness to two of them and just switch them back and forth. And that is the "bad" way to do it. With Guzma, Olympia, Ropes, Switch, Zoroark, Solgaleo, just a normal retreat, etc., that card is going to happen and it is going to be awesome.

I also happen to think Acerola is going to shake up the meta a lot as well. That alone is enough to potentially make Tapu Koko GX decks run. Guzma is going to be incredible for some decks like Volcanion, Lapras, Metagross (maybe, less certain on this one). Kiawe makes certain strategies viable right off the bat (T2 Pulverizing Pancake is a thing with this card). It powers up something like Lapras EX for big numbers T2. I mean, that card alone might make certain decks viable that had no shot in the past due to ridiculous energy requirements.

Overall, I don't know that I think this will be Guardians Rising level of change, but I think we might be looking at Sun and Moon impact and that was a really good set.
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Darkrai GX isn't that good, its a 1/2 of in Darkrai EX solely for its ability and a good EXP Share target. Gardevoir GX with Xerneas has the most potential out of this set in my opinion. Built in energy acceleration along with an attack that does decent damage through out all stages of the game. The big downfalls however are Metagross GX and Garb both destroy Gardevoir GX. Garb has too low of an energy count for Gardevoir GX to hit hard enough, not to mention Gardevoir GX needs Rare Candy. The only saving grace is the big 230hp mark. That's 12 items for a OHKO and 10 with a Choice Band for an OHKO.

Golisopod GX has a Retreat Cost of three. Alter of the Moone would bring it down to 1 Retreat Cost, which is horribly inefficient to manually retreat. I also think this card is severely overhyped. You need constant rotation to deal damage, but you only do 120. So first, that's not enough damage in a meta where 210 is in OHKO range of Garbodor at 9 items or Drampa GX with Po Town and Choice Band etc. You also run a problem with always having a rotatory card ready. If you play multiple Guzma in a row, you run the risk of killing your hand, and at only 120 or 150 damage, you aren't killing EX's or GX's in one hit, so you need multiple turns to invest in it. The more turn you need to invest in it, the worse your match up becomes against Garb. It has too many even/bad match-ups in the Tier 1 bracket, and its Tier 2 bracket is worse.

Acerola/Super Scoop Up are only good to pick up Basic Pokemon, or in extreme cases a Stage 1. So that's Tapu-Koko GX (not very relevant anyways), Darkrai EX (doesn't want to play it unless you need to re-use Tapu-Lele GX), and Tapu-Bulu GX (most likely the deck it will be played in, but even then i doubt it will be). You need a deck that you can accelerate energy quickly in for you to abuse a bouncer. Spending your supporter for turn to pick up a Koko just to play it and move it back to active doesn't exactly scream WORTH in a deck that is Tier 3 MAYBE Tier 2 after rotation.
 
TheDude133 said:
Noibat being a normal type/not being dragon doesn't affect to many things.

Po town, while being a Team Magma Secret Base for Stage 1's, is not better than Alter of the Moone in Espeon decks. And as far as the Espeon vs Noivern Match-up goes, you need more factors to take into account, for example. First, Noivern/Drampa would be favorable in the Espeon/Garb match-up if either side plays Po Town. Noivern/Garbodor however would get stonked by Espeon/Garb. Noivern/Darkrai EX would maybe have a bit more of a even matchup because of the Darkrai EX focus, but that's result dependant.

As far as meta changing aspects go, nothing will change, none of the cards coming out of BUR will change the meta until rotation, then things will get more interesting.

Darkrai GX isn't that good, its a 1/2 of in Darkrai EX solely for its ability and a good EXP Share target. Gardevoir GX with Xerneas has the most potential out of this set in my opinion. Built in energy acceleration along with an attack that does decent damage through out all stages of the game. The big downfalls however are Metagross GX and Garb both destroy Gardevoir GX. Garb has too low of an energy count for Gardevoir GX to hit hard enough, not to mention Gardevoir GX needs Rare Candy. The only saving grace is the big 230hp mark. That's 12 items for a OHKO and 10 with a Choice Band for an OHKO.

Golisopod GX has a Retreat Cost of three. Alter of the Moone would bring it down to 1 Retreat Cost, which is horribly inefficient to manually retreat. I also think this card is severely overhyped. You need constant rotation to deal damage, but you only do 120. So first, that's not enough damage in a meta where 210 is in OHKO range of Garbodor at 9 items or Drampa GX with Po Town and Choice Band etc. You also run a problem with always having a rotatory card ready. If you play multiple Guzma in a row, you run the risk of killing your hand, and at only 120 or 150 damage, you aren't killing EX's or GX's in one hit, so you need multiple turns to invest in it. The more turn you need to invest in it, the worse your match up becomes against Garb. It has too many even/bad match-ups in the Tier 1 bracket, and its Tier 2 bracket is worse.

Acerola/Super Scoop Up are only good to pick up Basic Pokemon, or in extreme cases a Stage 1. So that's Tapu-Koko GX (not very relevant anyways), Darkrai EX (doesn't want to play it unless you need to re-use Tapu-Lele GX), and Tapu-Bulu GX (most likely the deck it will be played in, but even then i doubt it will be). You need a deck that you can accelerate energy quickly in for you to abuse a bouncer. Spending your supporter for turn to pick up a Koko just to play it and move it back to active doesn't exactly scream WORTH in a deck that is Tier 3 MAYBE Tier 2 after rotation.
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Darkrai GX is also a finisher in the correct variant of darkrai. If you are only thinking about Darkrai's first attack, then you need to look at the second attack. The GX synergizes perfectly with the EX second attack and the format is now slow enough you could make a deck centered around putting the opposing pokemon to sleep.

You are right about Altar of the Moone. Substitute Fairy Garden or Manaphy and that is my point. Is it the most effective switching mechanism? No. But it is an option and that was my whole point. There are tons of switching options including retreating for a wishiwashi, scooping up the wishiwashi, and promoting the Golispod again.

There are tons of ways you can use Acerola. But hey, if you want to stick with koko, thats cool. But let me posit other uses. I have a metagross deck that has 1 basic, 1 stage 1, and 2 stage 2 set up. I dont have max potion. I scoop up the damaged metagross, evolve the stage 1 into a stage 2, evolve the basic into a stage 1, and slap down the basic for the next turn. But hey, you thought of all the potential uses and determined that only basics are viable and that any other use is foolish.

Another use? Literally any eeveelution deck. Another use? Greninja decks. It can be used to trigger Golispod.

But hey, stick to using it with Bulu or Koko and keep thinking this only has a niche appeal. AZ was pretty niche too...if a one of in most expanded decks could be considered niche.

My point is that Acerola is going to see a ton of play in competitive decks and comments like yours are clearly not thinking through the ways some of the major decks in both standard and expanded could use the card.
 
Fayld said:
Darkrai GX is also a finisher in the correct variant of darkrai. If you are only thinking about Darkrai's first attack, then you need to look at the second attack. The GX synergizes perfectly with the EX second attack and the format is now slow enough you could make a deck centered around putting the opposing pokemon to sleep.

You are right about Altar of the Moone. Substitute Fairy Garden or Manaphy and that is my point. Is it the most effective switching mechanism? No. But it is an option and that was my whole point. There are tons of switching options including retreating for a wishiwashi, scooping up the wishiwashi, and promoting the Golispod again.

There are tons of ways you can use Acerola. But hey, if you want to stick with koko, thats cool. But let me posit other uses. I have a metagross deck that has 1 basic, 1 stage 1, and 2 stage 2 set up. I dont have max potion. I scoop up the damaged metagross, evolve the stage 1 into a stage 2, evolve the basic into a stage 1, and slap down the basic for the next turn. But hey, you thought of all the potential uses and determined that only basics are viable and that any other use is foolish.

Another use? Literally any eeveelution deck. Another use? Greninja decks. It can be used to trigger Golispod.

But hey, stick to using it with Bulu or Koko and keep thinking this only has a niche appeal. AZ was pretty niche too...if a one of in most expanded decks could be considered niche.

My point is that Acerola is going to see a ton of play in competitive decks and comments like yours are clearly not thinking through the ways some of the major decks in both standard and expanded could use the card.
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Its not about the use, its about the practicality of the card. Acerola has one goal, reset a pokemon. Now, by reset i mean it heals all damage, and lets you re-allocate energy as needed. The reason its only GOOD for basic decks, is because of the damage per turn basis. For example, in Koko, i play a koko from hand, promote it with its ability, it takes damage, i retreat into something else, Acerola it, and repeat, effectively resetting my board, without needed another Koko. With bulu its the same thing, but you use vikavolt and Lurantis to reset the energy. The reason it isn't practical in a stage 2 deck is because its too situational. How often are you going to have the perfect setup for acerola to be useful? How often are you going NEED the acerola? Can you use it? Sure, but is it worth it in 100 games? No. In Golisopod, yes you can use it to activate its switch condition, but what are you bouncing? another Golisopod that takes two turns to hit board? Again, effective, but in 100 games, not practical due to being situational.

Eeveelutions will be rotated a month after this comes out, so i didn't talk about them, because it's not relevant to standard.

AZ is a different case, because look at expanded: Toad, Turbo Dark, Yveltal, Night March, M-Ray. All decks that revolve around big basics and have easy energy costs to fulfill in one turn. These are the perfect deck for bouncers, because they can be used to the full potential. Grass decks in expanded are good with it too because of Forest of Giant Plants.

Now, everyone could play it to reset their Tapu-Lele GX, which I'm sure will be the big use for it, but that's it. Decks that play Drampa GX are the same way, but notice something, they are both big basics, who have easy energy costs, which is my point.

Acerola out of 100 games, is only good for resetting big basics, and the extreme situations of resetting a stage 1.
 
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