Discussion PTCG Set Ranking: Forbidden Light

[FrostBiter12]

Hey everyone! This is my first Set Ranking article, and I'm glad that it features a set I believe will be a pivotal point for the Pokémon TCG metagame; Forbidden Light! Not only will I be going over the Top 10 cards in the set, but I will also discuss their impact on the format and what decks could benefit from the listed cards. So, without further ado, let's kick this new article series off with the card rankings!

Forbidden Light Top 10------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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1st; Beast Ring (#102)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Beast Ring – Trainer
Item

You may only play this card when your opponent has 3 or 4 Prize cards remaining.

Search your deck for up 2 Basic Energy, reveal them, and attach them to 1 of your Ultra Beast Pokemon. Then, shuffle your deck.

You may play as many Item cards as you like during your turn (before your attack).

With cards like Buzzwole GX and Dusk Mane Necrozma GX already placing well in tournaments around the world, Beast Ring is another great asset for these decks to take advantage of. Sniping bench sitters with Buzzwole GX's Jet Punch attack can apply some early game pressure, but if your opponent starts to gain the edge over you and take a K.O. on either a GX or EX, you have access to Beast Ring, one of the best energy acceleration cards in the game. Using multiple Beast Rings when your opponent has 3 or 4 prize cards remaining can easily put you ahead of the game, leaving your opponent with almost no chance of catching
you by surprise.

2nd; Diancie Prism Star (#72)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Diancie Prism Star – Fighting – HP120
Basic Pokémon

You can’t have more than 1 Prism Star card with the same name in your deck. If a Prism Star card would go to the discard pile, put it in the Lost Zone instead.

Ability: Princess Veil
If this Pokemon is on your Bench, your [F] Pokemon’s attacks do 20 more damage to your opponent’s Active Pokemon.

[F][F][F] Diamond Rain: 90 damage. Heal 30 damage from each of your Benched Pokemon.

Weakness: Grass (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

As Fighting type decks get more and more popular (due to the uprising of Zoroark GX), finding support for hitting the right numbers has been a key goal for players moving into the future, especially as HP thresholds grow higher and higher. Originally, decks like Buzzwole GX variants used Regirock EX (FCO) and Strong Energy (FCO) to increase their damage cap. Now, these players can also take advantage of Diancie Prism Star, which has a better ability than Regirock EX and isn't a two-prize liability. Not to mention being a very versatile card in all Fighting type decks in general such as Zygarde GX, Lycanroc GX variants, and Lucario GX variants.

3rd; Zygarde GX (#73)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Zygarde-GX – Fighting – HP200
Basic Pokémon

[C][C] Cell Connector: 50 damage. Attach 2 [F] Energy from your discard pile to this Pokemon.

[F][F][C][C] Land’s Wrath: 130 damage.

[F][F][C][C] Judgment GX: 150 damage. During your opponent’s next turn, this Pokemon takes no damage from the attacks of your opponent’s Pokemon-GX and Pokemon-EX. (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack in a game.)

When your Pokemon-GX is Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.

Weakness: Grass (x2)
Resistance: None
Retreat: 3

Being the only Basic Pokémon GX with 200 HP (new record), Zygarde GX is a monstrous Pokémon to square off against, especially considering how fast it can set up. With two Fighting Energy in the discard and a DCE attached, Zygarde GX can charge itself up and be ready to use its GX attack by turn 2! Despite the hype surrounding Ultra Necrozma GX, I personally believe that Zygarde GX can out perform it due to a more consistent set up (which is better amplified in the Standard format) and since it can hit Zoroark GX for weakness. As stated above, Zygarde GX has a built in energy acceleration engine and shield almost nothing can prevent you from using where as Ultra Necrozma GX is easier to disrupt. Not to mention all of the Fighting type support such as Diancie Prism Star, Strong Energy, and Scorched Earth to go along with Zygarde GX. Ultra Necrozma GX is definitely a great deck, but I personally find it isn't as powerful (and consistent) as Zygarde GX is.

4th; Beast Energy Prism Star (#117)------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Beast Energy Prism Star – Special Energy

You can’t have more than 1 Prism Star card with the same name in your deck. If a Prism Star card would go to the discard pile, put it in the Lost Zone instead.

This card provides [C] Energy.

While this card is attached to an Ultra Beast, it provides every type of Energy but provides only 1 Energy at a time. The attacks of the Ultra Beast this card is attached to do 30 more damage to your opponent’s Active Pokemon (before applying Weakness and Resistance).

In the past, we've had Special Energy cards like Strong Energy (FCO) and Darkness Energy (Call of Legends) to increase damage output on specific Pokémon. Now we have Beast Energy Prism Star, a card that increases the attacks of Ultra Beasts by 30 damage and provides a Rainbow Energy effect. Unfortunately, being a Prism Star means you can have only one in your deck, but that extra 30 damage can make a world of a difference when it comes to taking a K.O. on high HP Pokémon.

5th; Ultra Necrozma GX (#95)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Ultra Necrozma-GX – Dragon – HP190
Basic Pokemon (Ultra Beast)

[P][M] Photon Geyser: 20+ damage. Discard all basic [P] Energy from this Pokemon. This attack does 80 more damage for each Energy card discarded in this way.

[P][M] Destructive Light GX: This attack can only be used if there are 6 or less total Prize cards remaining in play. Place 6 damage counters on each of your opponent’s Pokemon. (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack in a game.)

When your Pokemon-GX is Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Fairy (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

Ultra Necrozma GX isn't only a more powerful version of Rayquaza EX (DRX), but has access to cards like Mysterious Treasure (FLI), Malamar (FLI), and Beast Energy (FLI) to improve it even more. Not to mention 190 HP and a late game GX attack to soften up your opponent's attackers. The damage cap on Ultra Necrozma GX is just as impressive, being able to hit practically any number under the right conditions. Throw in a Dawn Wings Necrozma GX for support and you should be good to go!

6th; Mysterious Treasure (#113)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Mysterious Treasure – Trainer
Item

Discard a card from your hand in order to play this card.

Search your deck for a [P] or [N] Pokemon, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then, shuffle your deck.
You may play as many Item cards as you like during your turn (before your attack).

Though predominately used in Ultra Necrozma GX/Malamar, Mysterious Treasure has uses in other Dragon or Psychic type decks like Esepon GX/Garbodor, Trevenant Break, and the occasional Noivern GX/Garbodor as well. Being a better version of Ultra Ball means that you don't have to discard as many resources to grab the same card with Mysterious Treasure, which these decks can definitely benefit from.

7th; Malamar (#51)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Malamar – Psychic – HP90
Stage 1 – Evolves from Inkay

Ability: Psycho Recharge
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may attach a [P] Energy card from your discard pile to 1 of your Benched Pokemon.

[P][P][C] Psy Missile: 60 damage.

Weakness: Psychic (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

Similar to Mysterious Treasure, Malamar is most effective when paired with Ultra Necrozma GX as an energy acceleration option. Being reminiscent of Eelektrik (NVI) and Bronzong (PHF), Malamar can boost Psychic type Pokemon that require high amounts of energy like Necrozma GX (BUS) and Mewtwo GX (SHL). Throw in Altar of the Moone (GRI) and Dawn Wings Necrozma GX (CRI) for free retreat, and you can charge up any sufficient attacker in an instant.

8th; Naganadel GX (#56)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Naganadel-GX – Psychic – HP210
Stage 1 (Ultra Beast) – Evolves from Poipole

[C] Beast Ride: 20x damage. This attack does 20 damage for each Ultra Beast you have in play.

[P][C][C] Jet Tackle: 110 damage. This attack’s damage isn’t affected by Resistance.

[C][C][C] Stinger GX: Each player shuffles their Prize cards into their deck. Then, each player takes 3 cards from the top of their deck and puts them face down as their Prize cards. (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack in a game.)

When your Pokemon-GX is Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.

Weakness: Psychic (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1

Though it isn't the strongest attacker in the world, when combined with a Fighting type like Buzzwole GX to support it, Naganadel GX actually becomes a formidable force. The unique scenario this creates is that Naganadel GX covers up for its own weakness (being a Pyschic type itself) and for Buzzwole GX's (since Buzzwole GX is weak to Pyschic), which means that the deck actually has no direct counter (unlike other Buzzwole GX variants vs. Mew EX). Not to mention Buzzwole GX is an Ultra Beast, which increases the damage output on Naganadel GX's Beast Ride attack (and both can take advantage of Ultra Space (FLI)). Even if your opponent does gain a foothold and take that lead, you can Stinger GX to put you both down to even strength.

9th; Buzzwole (#77)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Buzzwole – Fighting – HP130
Basic Pokemon (Ultra Beast)

[F] Sledgehammer: 30+ damage. If your opponent has 4 Prize cards remaining, this attack does 90 more damage.

[F][F][C] Swing Around: 80+ damage. Flip 2 coins. This attack does 20 more damage for each heads.

Weakness: Psychic (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

Having an intricate attack requirement can sometimes cause players to shy away from a card like Buzzwole, requiring exactly four prize cards remaining in order to increase its attack's damage by 90 (adding up to a grand total of 120) on its Sledgehammer attack. Though this may seem too situational, one well timed Sledgehammer can swing a game into your favor, whether it causes a two-hit K.O. effect (which isn't hard to pull off with 130 HP being an awkward number for opponents to hit) or a OHKO on something like a Zoroark GX.

10; Diantha (#105)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Diantha – Trainer
Supporter

You can only play this card if 1 of your [Y] Pokemon was Knocked Out during your opponent’s last turn.

Choose 2 cards from your discard pile and put them into your hand.

You can play only 1 Supporter card during your turn (before your attack).

Cards that we've had in the past with similar effects to Diantha include Teammates (PRC) and Twins (Triumphant), which both saw a decent amount of play in their time. Diantha is largely different when it comes to requirements as it can only be used in Fairy type decks in order to be effective. Decks that could take advantage of this include Xerneas Break, Gardevoir GX variants, and practically any Fairy type. Retrieving cards like Max Elixir and Rare Candy can be a big impact in a game, so having such an option is a great asset for all Fairy type decks.

Honorable Mentions----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Greninja GX (#24)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Greninja-GX – Water – HP230
Stage 2 – Evolves from Frogadier

Ability: Wind Shuriken
When you play this card from your hand to evolve 1 of your Pokemon during your turn, you may put 3 damage counters on 1 of your opponent’s Pokemon.

[W][C][C] Haze Slash: 110 damage. You may shuffle this Pokemon and all cards attached to it into your deck.

[W][C][C] Shadow Assassin GX: This attack does 130 damage to 1 of your opponent’s Benched Pokemon. (Don’t apply Weakness and Resistance.) (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack in a game.)

When your Pokemon-GX is Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.

Greninja-GX may not be played from your lap.

Weakness: Grass (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

A familiar card by the name of Crobat (PHF) has a identical ability to Greninja GX (along with the pre-evolutions Golbat (PHF) and Frogadier (FLI), but both instead place 2 damage counters) which was used alongside Seismitoad EX (FFI) to increase its damage output while putting your opponent under Item Lock. Nowadays, Greninja GX can be paired with Zoroark GX to increase the damage cap of Zoroark GX from 150 (with a Choice Band) to possibly 210 (by using two Greninja GX). Combine that with a Tapu Koko (PR) and you can bring almost anything within one-shot range of Zoroark GX.

Rotom (#40)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Rotom – Psychic – HP70
Basic Pokemon

Ability: Rotomotor
If there are 9 or more Pokemon Tool cards in your discard pile, ignore the attack costs of this Pokemon.

[P][P][P] Plasma Slash: 120 damage. This Pokemon can’t attack during your next turn.

Weakness: Darkness (x2)
Resistance: Fighting (-20)
Retreat: 1

One thing that I personally thought Rotom Box was missing was a way to handle both Zoroark GX and Buzzwole GX. While a counter to Zoroark GX still remains hidden, a way to handle Buzzwole GX has come into light in the form of a Psychic type Rotom. Energy isn't needed in order to take out Buzzwole GX, just nine tools in the discard pile and you can easily take a OHKO. Though I definitely don't think Rotom (FLI) will push Rotom Box above Tier 2, it may have potential as a competitive rogue deck that can take wins by surprise.

Crasher Wake (#104)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler: Card Text

Crasher Wake – Trainer
Supporter

Discard 2 [W] Energy from your hand in order to play this card.

Search your deck for up to 2 cards and put them into your hand. Then, shuffle your deck.

You may play only 1 Supporter card during your turn (before your attack).

With Aqua Patch requiring a Water Energy in the discard pile in order to attach, Crasher Wake provides a way to discard and search out any card in your deck (including Aqua Patch) to give you an out to many different situations. It may be a somewhat difficult play to pull off, but the benefit it gives is immense and should be something to consider in all Water type decks.

Conclusion-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being tournament legal in only two weeks, the Pokemon TCG: Forbidden Light expansion brings a whole new set of cards to the table for deck builders to work with. Many of these cards can quite possible altar the current meta dramatically, so keep an eye out for these changes to stay ahead of the game and gain the edge against other competitors. Tune in next time for more articles on PTCG tournaments, deck lists, and set rankings here in the Pokebeach forums! Also check out my Article Homepage for links to recent articles featuring the Pokemon TCG!

Until next time!
~FrostBiter12

 

[CrownAxe]

Zygarde is not the only 200 HP basic GX pokemon. Celesteela also has 200 HP and Guzzlord beats it with 210

 

[Nwabumblebee]

Baby buzzwole is a monster.

 

[Wechselbalg]

Have to agree about Zygarde-GX being somewhat better than expected. Not sure if I'd put it that high on the list though, but yes, it's definitely not terrible. One thing I definitely like about Zygarde is that it has access to several decent non-GX attackers; (meaning cheesy Hoopa decks can't really check you) the best being baby Buzzwole and Sudowoodo and the second the new baby Zygarde (not the one with Peacekeeper, altough that one is also ok I guess) which also has 130 HP and its second attack is not bad as you will most likely use your GX attack at some point. Powering it up isn't that big of a deal either since you're playing DCE anyway. If you want to you can even tech in Energy Keeper Carbink with the BREAK as well, mostly to protect against energy removal, (since Zygarde does need 4 energies for the big attacks) altough mill isn't that great at the moment so it's not a necessity.

Grass pretty much sucks right now and, unlike Buzzwole, you don't have to worry much about weakness counters- Zoropod is probably the worst Zoroark variant right now and it looks like Shining Genesect still can't become meta altough theoretically it would be something that could check Zygarde. Maybe the new Alolan-Exegguttor could be a threat? I personally can't see it being consistent enough in Standard (in Expanded it's not that great either).

I'm suprised you didn't put Naganadel on the list as an hourable mention instead of #8; metal Beast Box needs to rely on way too many lucky Beast Ring draws and also lacks good non-GX options, and while fighting Beast Box is not entirely terrible it can easily get obliterated by anything psychic. And imo its GX attack is very bad because your opponent can just easily KO Naganadel on their next turn, not to mention that it also actives the opponent's Beast Rings again.

 

[JGB146]

Peacemaker Zygarde is my sleeper pick for unexpectedly good cards. I've hit for 130 damage with him on T1 going second. And similarly with mew copying his attack, it's almost easy to hit for 180 T1.

 

[Attix]

I remember a month ago people were looking at the setlist saying it was worse than Crimson Invasion, possibly even Evolutions bad. Then people actually started using the cards, and all of a sudden it's legendarily good.

 

[FrostBiter12]

Hey everyone! I'm sorry for not being able to get back to you on your posts sooner, I was at a League Cup today and didn't have time to reply to everyone's comments until now (I was able to take 1st place at the tournament though!). Anyways, here are my thoughts on everything!

Zygarde is not the only 200 HP basic GX pokemon. Celesteela also has 200 HP and Guzzlord beats it with 210

Hey @CrownAxe!

Thanks for pointing that out, I completely forgot about Guzzlord GX and Celesteela GX. Unfortunately, I'm trying to refrain from editing my articles after posting them as much as possible, but to those who have read it, definitely keep @CrownAxe's point in mind. Still working out the kinks when it comes to article writing, but I'm pretty sure I'll get there at some point. I'm actually thinking about starting a miniature "team" here on Pokebeach made of amateur article writers, graphic artists, and article editors looking for a chance to apply their talents here in the forums. Maybe you'd be interested in a position (since you seem to have a hawk-like eye when it comes to editing )? I haven't set anything up just yet, but maybe during the Summer I'll try and get things rolling concerning the article production. Anyways, thanks for bringing this to my attention!

Have to agree about Zygarde-GX being somewhat better than expected. Not sure if I'd put it that high on the list though, but yes, it's definitely not terrible. One thing I definitely like about Zygarde is that it has access to several decent non-GX attackers; (meaning cheesy Hoopa decks can't really check you) the best being baby Buzzwole and Sudowoodo and the second the new baby Zygarde (not the one with Peacekeeper, altough that one is also ok I guess) which also has 130 HP and its second attack is not bad as you will most likely use your GX attack at some point. Powering it up isn't that big of a deal either since you're playing DCE anyway. If you want to you can even tech in Energy Keeper Carbink with the BREAK as well, mostly to protect against energy removal, (since Zygarde does need 4 energies for the big attacks) altough mill isn't that great at the moment so it's not a necessity.

Grass pretty much sucks right now and, unlike Buzzwole, you don't have to worry much about weakness counters- Zoropod is probably the worst Zoroark variant right now and it looks like Shining Genesect still can't become meta altough theoretically it would be something that could check Zygarde. Maybe the new Alolan-Exegguttor could be a threat? I personally can't see it being consistent enough in Standard (in Expanded it's not that great either).

I'm suprised you didn't put Naganadel on the list as an hourable mention instead of #8; metal Beast Box needs to rely on way too many lucky Beast Ring draws and also lacks good non-GX options, and while fighting Beast Box is not entirely terrible it can easily get obliterated by anything psychic. And imo its GX attack is very bad because your opponent can just easily KO Naganadel on their next turn, not to mention that it also actives the opponent's Beast Rings again.

Hey @Wechselbalg!

Great points! I have a lot of confidence in Zygarde GX, and I find that it is just more versatile in so many different match ups. There are so many different techs that can impact the deck in comparison to Ultra Necrozma GX/Malamar in my opinion, so I'm going to keep an eye on it to see how it does in the future. As you were saying, the Grass weakness is much more manageable than Buzzwole GX's weakness (though VikaBulu can be a pain), especially with there not being a versatile tech against it just yet.

Though I don't think it is the best, Naganadel GX/Buzzwole GX in my eyes seems to be a decent deck. Being able to cover its own weakness is a great asset that almost no other deck in the format has; even if you square off against Pyschic, they are weak to you as well. The main issue is whether are not you can keep pace with your opponent.

Peacemaker Zygarde is my sleeper pick for unexpectedly good cards. I've hit for 130 damage with him on T1 going second. And similarly with mew copying his attack, it's almost easy to hit for 180 T1.

Hey @JGB146!

Personally, I'm not sure as to how versatile the Mew/Zygarde combo is in comparison to Mew EX just because with Mew EX, you almost guarantee a K.O. on cards like Buzzwole GX or Naganadel GX where as with Mew, your only hitting 180. It could work in Buzzwole GX decks just because they already play Mew and Zygarde wouldn't be too hard to throw in, but I'm not sure about other decks.

I remember a month ago people were looking at the setlist saying it was worse than Crimson Invasion, possibly even Evolutions bad. Then people actually started using the cards, and all of a sudden it's legendarily good.

Hey @Attix!

Yeah, I was a little skeptical at first myself, but once I started testing, things got a whole lot better in terms of play-ability. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this deck impacts the format (though I'm not a big fan of Beast Ring myself) and I'm glad that everyone else is as well.

Thanks everyone for the support, I hope you enjoyed the article!
~FrostBiter12

 

[JGB146]

Yeah, the mew/Zygarde combo only wins in Buzzwole or other fighting decks. But it's huge. Single-handedly won a matchup against a Psychic beast box deck tonight just from using that combo and getting baby buzz up for cleanup.

 

[Otaku]

Nothing against you, @FrostBiter12, but it is too early to know how good or bad SM - Forbidden Light really is: that takes time! XD Some sets seem awesome at first, but fizzle after a brief bout of attempted creativity. Others have slow starts, but end up having been diamonds in the rough as their cards matter until rotation. We end up learning that some introduce the first pieces of combos or run smack dab into counters as more sets release. All that is a nitpick. Sorry, just had to get it off my chest; your title is making a promise it won't be able to keep for some time.

I've gone back and forth over certain cards, but a week ago, this was my top 25:

01) Malamar
02) Diancie [Prism Star]
03) Beast Ring
04) Beast Energy [Prism Star]
05) Ultra Necrozma-GX
06) Buzzwole
07) Sylveon
08) Metal Frying Pan
09) Lysandre [Prism Star]
10) Zygarde-GX (plus Bonnie)
11) Crasher Wake
12) Diantha
13) Ultra Recon Squad
14) Naganadel-GX
15) Greninja-GX (plus Frogadier)
16) Ultra Space
17) Tyrantrum
18) Alolan Exeggutor
19) Yveltal-GX
20) Xerneas-GX
21) Empoleon
22) Dialga-GX
23) Garchomp
24) Fossil Excavation Map
25) Eneporter

I am not confident in the placement of many of these, and there are a few I'd probably swap out with something else if I made the list today. So... why aren't I making the list today? Because I'm short on time and the list tomorrow will also be different! XD

Think of Top X lists from before a set is three months old like the brackets someone fills out trying to predict the outcome of a sports tournament.

Cheers!

Edit: Stupid typos. "Nothing you" was supposed to be "Nothing against you".

 

[Wechselbalg]

Well, this list is certainly a lot worse than FrostBiter's. Cards like Tyrantrum, Ultra Recon Squad, metal type Empoleon, Frying Pan etc. are not even worth mentioning.

I think he actually got most of the list right, because almost everything on FrostBiter's list obviously has staying power - cards like Mysterious Treasure, Beast Ring, Diancie, Malamar and baby Buzzwole will always have their uses, regardless of what the results of the first big event - where FLI is legal - will be.

 

[FrostBiter12]

Nothing against you, @FrostBiter12, but it is too early to know how good or bad SM - Forbidden Light really is: that takes time! XD Some sets seem awesome at first, but fizzle after a brief bout of attempted creativity. Others have slow starts, but end up having been diamonds in the rough as their cards matter until rotation. We end up learning that some introduce the first pieces of combos or run smack dab into counters as more sets release. All that is a nitpick. Sorry, just had to get it off my chest; your title is making a promise it won't be able to keep for some time.

I've gone back and forth over certain cards, but a week ago, this was my top 25:

01) Malamar
02) Diancie [Prism Star]
03) Beast Ring
04) Beast Energy [Prism Star]
05) Ultra Necrozma-GX
06) Buzzwole
07) Sylveon
08) Metal Frying Pan
09) Lysandre [Prism Star]
10) Zygarde-GX (plus Bonnie)
11) Crasher Wake
12) Diantha
13) Ultra Recon Squad
14) Naganadel-GX
15) Greninja-GX (plus Frogadier)
16) Ultra Space
17) Tyrantrum
18) Alolan Exeggutor
19) Yveltal-GX
20) Xerneas-GX
21) Empoleon
22) Dialga-GX
23) Garchomp
24) Fossil Excavation Map
25) Eneporter

I am not confident in the placement of many of these, and there are a few I'd probably swap out with something else if I made the list today. So... why aren't I making the list today? Because I'm short on time and the list tomorrow will also be different! XD

Think of Top X lists from before a set is three months old like the brackets someone fills out trying to predict the outcome of a sports tournament.

Cheers!

Edit: Stupid typos. "Nothing you" was supposed to be "Nothing against you".

Hey @Otaku!

You definitely have a point on it being a little too early, but I personally believe that this is what my Set Rankings are technically about. The only reason it would be early in my opinion is because the set isn't tournament legal, so we don't have any psychical results just yet. Then again, what these Set Ranking articles are made to provide is a reference using my opinion and testing that I've done ahead of time. This means that based upon what I've found in games and theories, these cards are ranked according to how impactful and competitive they could be (again, this is my opinion, I'm just voicing it to give other people an idea of what I expect to happen). I'm not really rating the set as much as individual cards from the set, so I'm not determining whether the set is good or bad, just cards inside of it. I actually chose to post this before Forbidden Light was tournament legal because these are meant to be "predictions", which if they weren't, they would be more like a "Set Analysis" since we have data to reference to.

Now as for the title, I find that it is better suited for this specific topic, but I would definitely appreciate any suggestions you (or anyone else) have when it comes to this matter. These ratings aren't set in stone, and what I mean by this is that they aren't guaranteed to happen, they are just predictions for other people to read and take into account, which I think you believe counters the title. Maybe I could change the title; I find that it works for now, but let me know what you think and if you have any ideas! I really appreciate the advice as well!

Thanks!
~FrostBiter12

 

[Otaku]

Well, now that I have a little more time, I can explain some of my picks... and apologize for bungling the opening to my last post. Literally forgot a word that was kind of important, and I probably should have placed the thing about judging the sets long-term viability after more time had passed at the end, not the beginning. Not too thrilled I just posted the list without real explanations either; probably should have waited until I had time this afternoon. Though, I probably shouldn't have said as much as I did since I need to write full reviews for five of these cards for this week's Card of the Day articles. XP

Getting back to the set itself, I want to put forth that there are only a few truly standout cards. You know, the "no-brainers" that will utterly shock us if they fail to deliver. Everything else is debatable, and even if they all prove worthy in the long run, we've had sets where you cannot fit all the obvious successes into the Top 10.

01) Malamar

Spoiler

In recent TCG history, we have seen functionally identical Abilities - but for different Energy Types - appear twice in the forms of Eelektrik (BW - Noble Victories 40/101) and Bronzong (XY - Black Star Promos XY21; XY - Phantom Forces 61/119). The former experienced longer lasting success than the later, but both were components in multiple competitive decks, and at least one in each case had a claim on being the BDIF (for a time). This easily explains including Malamar in a Top 25 list; Ultra Necrozma-GX, I think, explains why Malamar should already make the Top 10. Yet I have it as my number one pick? Even if the core strategies are technically retreads of something we've seen for other Types, and even though I normally value "generalists" above deck specific options, I believe Malamar will spawn multiple competitive decks, and at least one highly competitive deck, with a decent longevity as well. In Expanded, Malamar must deal with more counters, but gains some great support and additional attack options... leading me to believe it will fare better than its elders Bronzong and Eelektrik or at least as well (those two have had successful Expanded Format decks, in some cases years after they'd left Standard).

02) Diancie [Prism Star]

Spoiler

I don't believe this card makes or breaks any decks, but it provides a pretty obvious benefit to nearly all [F] focused decks. One ought not rely heavily on it; if your entire strategy collapses without Diancie [Prism Star], then it becomes worth taking out quickly and once it is gone, it is gone. Which, on top of the current and probable near future metagame, is why Diancie [Prism Star] is expected to perform so well. [F] Type attackers like stacking damage bonuses anyway, so another one further boosts the range and reliability of such strategies; if no easy OHKO (or incidental multi-turn KO) of Diancie [Prism Star] presents itself, are you really coming out enough ahead burning a Guzma to force it Active and take the KO? Sometimes definitely "yes", sometimes definitely "no", and a whole lot of "maybe" that provides room for an opponent to make the wrong call. All of this seems like it should transfer over to Expanded, as well.

03) Beast Ring

Spoiler

I expect "Ultra Beast" decks to be a thing. I also expect multiple decks that are not Ultra Beast (plural) focused but have one (maybe two) being run in a large enough number to still justify Beast Ring's inclusion. However, it is important to remember that Beast Ring will usually have a narrow window of opportunity in your games, and how this can affect your deck's flow. Running it at higher counts increases your odds of drawing into it when you need it, but also when you don't. While the Expanded Format doesn't offer more Ultra Beasts, it does offer more combos. Especially Ace Specs.

04) Beast Energy [Prism Star]

Spoiler

This isn't a card that makes or breaks a deck, however, it provides an easy enhancement to any deck likely to attack with an Ultra Beast. There is more to this TCG than Ultra Beasts, however, and Prism Star cards usually one-time deals. This could be an exception as you can drop it on something like a Kartana-GX, use it to cover the [M] requirement of its first attack, swing for improved damage, then shuffle the entire affair back into your deck. Probably not, though, so expect this to help one attacker reach new heights and then quickly make its way to the Lost Zone. Another card that should fair about as well in Expanded.

05) Ultra Necrozma-GX

Spoiler

Riding the coattails of Malamar and - to a much lesser extent - the other Ultra Beast support is Ultra Necrozma-GX. We've had attackers like this before in the form of Rayquaza-EX (BW – Dragons Exalted 85/124, 123/124; BW – Black Star Promos BW47), and Ultra Necrozma-GX is almost as good as that card in every way. I say "almost as good" because I am discussing Rayquaza-EX in its historical context e.g. I'm viewing it while taking power creep into account. I believe it still has the chops for Expanded, as well. So why isn't it higher? For the same reason I wonder if I ranked it too high already; without Energy acceleration, this would be a bad card.

06) Buzzwole

Spoiler

This is another card that requires precise timing; more precise than Beast Ring, even. It is entirely possible your opponent can play around Buzzwole. If they don't and you're running your typical Buzzwole-GX or Ultra Beast deck, you have a strong likelihood of using a single-Prize, reasonably beefy Basic to take a OHKO, set up a 2HKO, or follow through on a 2HKO.

07) Sylveon

Spoiler

I've got a soft spot for Sylveon-GX decks... or maybe I should say a phobia? Any deck utilizing basic Fairy Energy can use Eevee (Sun & Moon 101/149) as a combination disruption/setup attacker. Does that justify it being this high? Probably not; I allowed nostalgia for Smeargle (HS – Undaunted 8/90; Call of Legends 21/95) to cloud my judgment. Being a Basic and having a non-attack effect that can pull the same stunt makes it far better (duh). Due to Shaymin-EX (XY - Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108) and VS Seeker, I expect fewer Supporters in your typical Expanded deck, and that means a greater potential to whiff even though you could back Sylveon with Vileplume (XY - Ancient Origins 3/98) and Alolan Muk (or Silent Lab).

08) Metal Frying Pan

Spoiler

There are two things really going against this card. First, it has to compete against Choice Band/Float Stone for the "Tool" slots on most [M] Pokémon. The second is that [M] Type attackers aren't exactly big at the moment. Which is why my only defense for selecting it is that I think this might be the last piece [M] decks needed... but I wouldn't bet my life on it, so why'd I give it the number eight slot? >.> Oh, right, because by this point in the list, I already had a lot of cards in a similar situation.

09) Lysandre [Prism Star]

Spoiler

This might bring [R] decks into ascendancy in Expanded. It is a one time trick, if you've got bad luck you won't even get a chance to use it, but remove the right three or four cards from your opponent's discard pile and you've practically won the game against more than a few likely matchups.

10) Zygarde-GX (plus Bonnie)

Spoiler

I keep flipflopping on this card. One moment, I think its poised to become the next big thing... and then I read someone trying to hype it up as such, see all the flaws in their reasoning, and start to wonder if it'll just enjoy 15 minutes of fame. The next, someone is trying to dismiss it and accidentally explains how it could be awesome. XP Its natural enemy, [G] Type attackers, are underperforming in the competitive sphere, but the next time I look at results, a [G] Type deck (often one that was previously dismissed) makes a comeback. Which matters because Zygarde-GX's about half of Zygarde-GX's appeal is being able to tank a hit while swinging hard itself.

For the rest, I'm not going into as much detail.

Spoiler

Crasher Wake, Diantha, and Ultra Recon Squad look good for their specific decks, and if I had an easier time picking between them, I'd have probably swapped one of them with Lysandre [Prism Star]. Ultra Recon Squad gets one more sentence, so I can point out how, with more and more [Prism Star] cards and more and more Ultra Beast Support, "Discard 2, draw 6" looks like a better and better deal. Naganadel-GX will probably fuse with Buzzwole-GX to birth Ultra Beast Box decks in addition to their own more focused pairing but this is another card who's strength comes from others. Greninja-GX and Frogadier want to bring back the days of Crobat/Golbat (PHF) shenanigans; I'm not sure being bigger and a better attacker matters when you need more Energy and lack a free Retreat, or else this duo would have ranked much higher (I remember Landobats). Ultra Space is great for Ultra Beasts - and some of their support - but not anything else. Tyrantrum actually makes the list for Expanded reasons, though I think it ranked where it did specifically because I was so wishy-washy about the rest of the bottom half.

Alolan Exeggutor has really been impressing me in the Theme Deck format of the PTCGO. Why does that matter? When a Starter deck can do it fast and somewhat reliably, then I have to ask what I can do in the Constructed Formats. Especially Expanded. Yveltal-GX and Xerneas-GX both strike me as good - but not "great" - attackers just waiting for something of their Type to make it big; both [D] and [Y] Types have a decent track record, at least in recent TCG history. Empoleon, Dialga-GX, and Garchomp are all about looking at what failed their predecessors... but which Type-shift addresses. Fossil Excavation Map looks really important to Fossil decks, but if they never amount to anything then neither will it. Eneporter is a great example of me overanalyzing the situation; Special Energy cards are huge and discarding them isn't as effective as it used to be because of Puzzle of Time/Special Charge, so why not just move it to something useless for your opponent? Answer: Because it is still just more effective to discard it or focus on something that aids in faster KO's. XP

Well, this list is certainly a lot worse than FrostBiter's. Cards like Tyrantrum, Ultra Recon Squad, metal type Empoleon, Frying Pan etc. are not even worth mentioning.

I think he actually got most of the list right, because almost everything on FrostBiter's list obviously has staying power - cards like Mysterious Treasure, Beast Ring, Diancie, Malamar and baby Buzzwole will always have their uses, regardless of what the results of the first big event - where FLI is legal - will be.

Is my list worse than Frostbiter12's? Maybe. I encourage you to actually go into more detail and discuss it, instead of just dismissing it outright. I mean, should I do that to you? Your post cites four cards that made my Top 25 but are not worth mentioning and... only one made the actual Top 10, as my 8th place pick (Frying Pan). Ultra Recon Squad was 13th, Tyrantum was 17th, and Empoleon was 21st. Sure you said "etc." but I also admitted that I was using a list I knew was flawed. As for the five great cards you think will be evergreen, all fall into categories that have been stomped by counters in the recent past; Abilities, Items, and TecH attackers. Oh, and four out of the five also made my Top 10. The order of many of our picks are different, but if that is a "lot worse", you just need to read more Top 10 lists.

Besides, you're really fond of Mysterious Treasure. So was FrostBiter12. I would be as well if Ultra Ball didn't exist and if the only convincing [P]/[N] deck I expect to see tearing up the tables did not want more opportunities to discard basic Psychic Energy cards. Ultra Ball exists, and Malamar decks will want the chance to double discard [P] Energy (and maybe toss some redundancies or TecH not needed for a particular matchup). I still think Mysterious Treasure is worth mentioning, though, and maybe it should have made my list a little lower down (really can't defend Eneporter XP). I know I could be completely wrong about Mysterious Treasure, but even if I'm not it would be worth discussing, both to warn others away from using it and to give us an idea of when it could prove great!

 

[FrostBiter12]

Well, now that I have a little more time, I can explain some of my picks... and apologize for bungling the opening to my last post. Literally forgot a word that was kind of important, and I probably should have placed the thing about judging the sets long-term viability after more time had passed at the end, not the beginning. Not too thrilled I just posted the list without real explanations either; probably should have waited until I had time this afternoon. Though, I probably shouldn't have said as much as I did since I need to write full reviews for five of these cards for this week's Card of the Day articles. XP

Getting back to the set itself, I want to put forth that there are only a few truly standout cards. You know, the "no-brainers" that will utterly shock us if they fail to deliver. Everything else is debatable, and even if they all prove worthy in the long run, we've had sets where you cannot fit all the obvious successes into the Top 10.

01) Malamar

Spoiler

In recent TCG history, we have seen functionally identical Abilities - but for different Energy Types - appear twice in the forms of Eelektrik (BW - Noble Victories 40/101) and Bronzong (XY - Black Star Promos XY21; XY - Phantom Forces 61/119). The former experienced longer lasting success than the later, but both were components in multiple competitive decks, and at least one in each case had a claim on being the BDIF (for a time). This easily explains including Malamar in a Top 25 list; Ultra Necrozma-GX, I think, explains why Malamar should already make the Top 10. Yet I have it as my number one pick? Even if the core strategies are technically retreads of something we've seen for other Types, and even though I normally value "generalists" above deck specific options, I believe Malamar will spawn multiple competitive decks, and at least one highly competitive deck, with a decent longevity as well. In Expanded, Malamar must deal with more counters, but gains some great support and additional attack options... leading me to believe it will fare better than its elders Bronzong and Eelektrik or at least as well (those two have had successful Expanded Format decks, in some cases years after they'd left Standard).

02) Diancie [Prism Star]

Spoiler

I don't believe this card makes or breaks any decks, but it provides a pretty obvious benefit to nearly all [F] focused decks. One ought not rely heavily on it; if your entire strategy collapses without Diancie [Prism Star], then it becomes worth taking out quickly and once it is gone, it is gone. Which, on top of the current and probable near future metagame, is why Diancie [Prism Star] is expected to perform so well. [F] Type attackers like stacking damage bonuses anyway, so another one further boosts the range and reliability of such strategies; if no easy OHKO (or incidental multi-turn KO) of Diancie [Prism Star] presents itself, are you really coming out enough ahead burning a Guzma to force it Active and take the KO? Sometimes definitely "yes", sometimes definitely "no", and a whole lot of "maybe" that provides room for an opponent to make the wrong call. All of this seems like it should transfer over to Expanded, as well.

03) Beast Ring

Spoiler

I expect "Ultra Beast" decks to be a thing. I also expect multiple decks that are not Ultra Beast (plural) focused but have one (maybe two) being run in a large enough number to still justify Beast Ring's inclusion. However, it is important to remember that Beast Ring will usually have a narrow window of opportunity in your games, and how this can affect your deck's flow. Running it at higher counts increases your odds of drawing into it when you need it, but also when you don't. While the Expanded Format doesn't offer more Ultra Beasts, it does offer more combos. Especially Ace Specs.

04) Beast Energy [Prism Star]

Spoiler

This isn't a card that makes or breaks a deck, however, it provides an easy enhancement to any deck likely to attack with an Ultra Beast. There is more to this TCG than Ultra Beasts, however, and Prism Star cards usually one-time deals. This could be an exception as you can drop it on something like a Kartana-GX, use it to cover the [M] requirement of its first attack, swing for improved damage, then shuffle the entire affair back into your deck. Probably not, though, so expect this to help one attacker reach new heights and then quickly make its way to the Lost Zone. Another card that should fair about as well in Expanded.

05) Ultra Necrozma-GX

Spoiler

Riding the coattails of Malamar and - to a much lesser extent - the other Ultra Beast support is Ultra Necrozma-GX. We've had attackers like this before in the form of Rayquaza-EX (BW – Dragons Exalted 85/124, 123/124; BW – Black Star Promos BW47), and Ultra Necrozma-GX is almost as good as that card in every way. I say "almost as good" because I am discussing Rayquaza-EX in its historical context e.g. I'm viewing it while taking power creep into account. I believe it still has the chops for Expanded, as well. So why isn't it higher? For the same reason I wonder if I ranked it too high already; without Energy acceleration, this would be a bad card.

06) Buzzwole

Spoiler

This is another card that requires precise timing; more precise than Beast Ring, even. It is entirely possible your opponent can play around Buzzwole. If they don't and you're running your typical Buzzwole-GX or Ultra Beast deck, you have a strong likelihood of using a single-Prize, reasonably beefy Basic to take a OHKO, set up a 2HKO, or follow through on a 2HKO.

07) Sylveon

Spoiler

I've got a soft spot for Sylveon-GX decks... or maybe I should say a phobia? Any deck utilizing basic Fairy Energy can use Eevee (Sun & Moon 101/149) as a combination disruption/setup attacker. Does that justify it being this high? Probably not; I allowed nostalgia for Smeargle (HS – Undaunted 8/90; Call of Legends 21/95) to cloud my judgment. Being a Basic and having a non-attack effect that can pull the same stunt makes it far better (duh). Due to Shaymin-EX (XY - Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108) and VS Seeker, I expect fewer Supporters in your typical Expanded deck, and that means a greater potential to whiff even though you could back Sylveon with Vileplume (XY - Ancient Origins 3/98) and Alolan Muk (or Silent Lab).

08) Metal Frying Pan

Spoiler

There are two things really going against this card. First, it has to compete against Choice Band/Float Stone for the "Tool" slots on most [M] Pokémon. The second is that [M] Type attackers aren't exactly big at the moment. Which is why my only defense for selecting it is that I think this might be the last piece [M] decks needed... but I wouldn't bet my life on it, so why'd I give it the number eight slot? >.> Oh, right, because by this point in the list, I already had a lot of cards in a similar situation.

09) Lysandre [Prism Star]

Spoiler

This might bring [R] decks into ascendancy in Expanded. It is a one time trick, if you've got bad luck you won't even get a chance to use it, but remove the right three or four cards from your opponent's discard pile and you've practically won the game against more than a few likely matchups.

10) Zygarde-GX (plus Bonnie)

Spoiler

I keep flipflopping on this card. One moment, I think its poised to become the next big thing... and then I read someone trying to hype it up as such, see all the flaws in their reasoning, and start to wonder if it'll just enjoy 15 minutes of fame. The next, someone is trying to dismiss it and accidentally explains how it could be awesome. XP Its natural enemy, [G] Type attackers, are underperforming in the competitive sphere, but the next time I look at results, a [G] Type deck (often one that was previously dismissed) makes a comeback. Which matters because Zygarde-GX's about half of Zygarde-GX's appeal is being able to tank a hit while swinging hard itself.

For the rest, I'm not going into as much detail.

Spoiler

Crasher Wake, Diantha, and Ultra Recon Squad look good for their specific decks, and if I had an easier time picking between them, I'd have probably swapped one of them with Lysandre [Prism Star]. Ultra Recon Squad gets one more sentence, so I can point out how, with more and more [Prism Star] cards and more and more Ultra Beast Support, "Discard 2, draw 6" looks like a better and better deal. Naganadel-GX will probably fuse with Buzzwole-GX to birth Ultra Beast Box decks in addition to their own more focused pairing but this is another card who's strength comes from others. Greninja-GX and Frogadier want to bring back the days of Crobat/Golbat (PHF) shenanigans; I'm not sure being bigger and a better attacker matters when you need more Energy and lack a free Retreat, or else this duo would have ranked much higher (I remember Landobats). Ultra Space is great for Ultra Beasts - and some of their support - but not anything else. Tyrantrum actually makes the list for Expanded reasons, though I think it ranked where it did specifically because I was so wishy-washy about the rest of the bottom half.

Alolan Exeggutor has really been impressing me in the Theme Deck format of the PTCGO. Why does that matter? When a Starter deck can do it fast and somewhat reliably, then I have to ask what I can do in the Constructed Formats. Especially Expanded. Yveltal-GX and Xerneas-GX both strike me as good - but not "great" - attackers just waiting for something of their Type to make it big; both [D] and [Y] Types have a decent track record, at least in recent TCG history. Empoleon, Dialga-GX, and Garchomp are all about looking at what failed their predecessors... but which Type-shift addresses. Fossil Excavation Map looks really important to Fossil decks, but if they never amount to anything then neither will it. Eneporter is a great example of me overanalyzing the situation; Special Energy cards are huge and discarding them isn't as effective as it used to be because of Puzzle of Time/Special Charge, so why not just move it to something useless for your opponent? Answer: Because it is still just more effective to discard it or focus on something that aids in faster KO's. XP

Is my list worse than Frostbiter12's? Maybe. I encourage you to actually go into more detail and discuss it, instead of just dismissing it outright. I mean, should I do that to you? Your post cites four cards that made my Top 25 but are not worth mentioning and... only one made the actual Top 10, as my 8th place pick (Frying Pan). Ultra Recon Squad was 13th, Tyrantum was 17th, and Empoleon was 21st. Sure you said "etc." but I also admitted that I was using a list I knew was flawed. As for the five great cards you think will be evergreen, all fall into categories that have been stomped by counters in the recent past; Abilities, Items, and TecH attackers. Oh, and four out of the five also made my Top 10. The order of many of our picks are different, but if that is a "lot worse", you just need to read more Top 10 lists.

Besides, you're really fond of Mysterious Treasure. So was FrostBiter12. I would be as well if Ultra Ball didn't exist and if the only convincing [P]/[N] deck I expect to see tearing up the tables did not want more opportunities to discard basic Psychic Energy cards. Ultra Ball exists, and Malamar decks will want the chance to double discard [P] Energy (and maybe toss some redundancies or TecH not needed for a particular matchup). I still think Mysterious Treasure is worth mentioning, though, and maybe it should have made my list a little lower down (really can't defend Eneporter XP). I know I could be completely wrong about Mysterious Treasure, but even if I'm not it would be worth discussing, both to warn others away from using it and to give us an idea of when it could prove great!

Hey @Otaku!

Your fine, everyone makes mistakes! The typo wasn't one of any major consequence, so don't worry about it (especially since I didn't see your post until after you edited it ). It seems that you were short on time when you posted your original list as well, so that is understandable.

Anyways, I agree with you that there are a few outstanding cards in the set which guarantee a Top 10 placement, but the hard part is knowing how to compare them and place them accordingly. Each person has a different opinion, so your list is just as valid as mine since we don't have psychical tournament reports just yet. Once we do get results, then we can compare our lists to see which one is more accurate. What makes a good "Set Ranking" in general is whether or not you explained your points thoroughly and are able to back up your points with evidence (whether it is testing or solid theories; this is just my opinion though). Once we do have psychical reports, then we compare our predictions with what actually happened to see if we were on target with our "format forecasts".

As for your Top 10 list, there are some things that I agree with, and some I disagree with. I still stand by mine own Top 10 at the moment, but I can see a decent amount of what you mentioned as valid. If you would like me to go over each card in your list individually, I can, but it would be a little long and I don't know if I've formulated an answer for some of them just yet (I want to make sure that anything I say is riddled with false points). Let me know what you think and I'll get back to you as soon as possible!

Thanks!
~FrostBiter12

 

[Otaku]

@FrostBiter12

Good, good. The idea was to further discussion. With that in mind, @Wechselbalg, while I did find some of your critiques wanting... it is quite possible you and/or FrostBiter12 can somewhat literally school me on what I've got wrong. XP Over the decades I've made some great calls and made some incredibly stupid ones. If you can explain, though, it helps me learn and become a better player and a better strategist.

(Even if I sometimes will get defensive. >_<)

So, FrostBiter12, Wechselbalg, or someone else who wants to try and explain, go ahead. We can tackle things one card at a time (I actually recommend that), and we may need to discussion current and probable future metagames as well.


For example, right now, [G] decks aren't riding all that high but they are far from absent... at least based on the three Standard Format tournaments (Jakarta Regional, Santiago Special #3, and Sau Paulo International) that happened on April 18th. Yes, that is nearly a month ago and yes, the results I found are woefully incomplete, but even with what we have, I'm seeing a 3rd place Vikabulu (out of 75 Masters) from the Jakarta Regionals and... oh boy. Sau Paulo had a magnificent 596 Masters playing. Vikabulu also took 3rd place, plus 5th, 22nd, and 58th. Zoropod showed up in Sau Paulo as the 8th, 13th, 17th, 24th, 28th, 33rd, 43rd, 46th, 49th, 50th, and 54th place finishers. The Top 64 is about 10.74% of the overall tournament turn out, and 21.875% of that are decks that focus on a [G] Type attacker. Relevance?

If we only added Zygarde-GX (and maybe Bonnie) to that metgame, and about one-in-five decks that made the Top 64 swing for double damage against it. Getting to the dubious hypotheticals, if Zygarde-GX becomes popular and its [G] Weakness then becomes worthy of exploitation, we could easily see an even higher concentration of [G] decks.

And/or maybe some folks think ahead and we get a good metagame for Zygarde-GX because folks decided to counter the [G] with [R] decks and those incinerated most of the [G] decks. @_@

 

[Wechselbalg]

Is my list worse than Frostbiter12's? Maybe. I encourage you to actually go into more detail and discuss it, instead of just dismissing it outright. I mean, should I do that to you? Your post cites four cards that made my Top 25 but are not worth mentioning and... only one made the actual Top 10, as my 8th place pick (Frying Pan). Ultra Recon Squad was 13th, Tyrantum was 17th, and Empoleon was 21st. Sure you said "etc." but I also admitted that I was using a list I knew was flawed. As for the five great cards you think will be evergreen, all fall into categories that have been stomped by counters in the recent past; Abilities, Items, and TecH attackers. Oh, and four out of the five also made my Top 10. The order of many of our picks are different, but if that is a "lot worse", you just need to read more Top 10 lists.

Besides, you're really fond of Mysterious Treasure. So was FrostBiter12. I would be as well if Ultra Ball didn't exist and if the only convincing [P]/[N] deck I expect to see tearing up the tables did not want more opportunities to discard basic Psychic Energy cards. Ultra Ball exists, and Malamar decks will want the chance to double discard [P] Energy (and maybe toss some redundancies or TecH not needed for a particular matchup). I still think Mysterious Treasure is worth mentioning, though, and maybe it should have made my list a little lower down (really can't defend Eneporter XP). I know I could be completely wrong about Mysterious Treasure, but even if I'm not it would be worth discussing, both to warn others away from using it and to give us an idea of when it could prove great!

Saying Mysterious Treasure is bad because Ultra Ball exists is like saying CPU Search is bad. Obviously you are not going to be able to use it in every single deck because of the type requirements, but the ones that can afford to use it will really appreciate the additional deck thinning and search effect. And it can always grab a Lele for 1 discard if you're really desperate. It's somewhat similar to how some decks that naturally used Level Ball also used Jirachi-Ex.

Ability lock exists and that never stopped people from using decks that require certain abilities to be online. As for item lock - there is no valid item lock strategy in Standard at the moment and as for Expanded, I'm having a harder and harder time to take that format "seriously" in a competitive environment, just because of the amount of cheese and abuse it allows due to the ever-expanding card pool.

Honestly, I don't think it requires much explaining as to why I think cards like Malamar, Treasure, Beast Ring, Diancie etc. are the ones that represent the best this set has to offer. It should be obvious really. They fall under the same category as Dark Patch, Dimension Valley, Dive Ball, Eelektrik and the like, namely cards that will always have potential to be paired up with something and if they will go out of "fashion" after a while they will never become completely useless. There are ways to counter ability lock except if it's a Hex like effect and not every deck can afford to spam Hex endlessly. Item lock counters every item, regardless of its usefulness.

The only thing I mentioned as a top card that could potentionally become obsolote is baby Buzz and that will happen only when TPCi decide to bring out another non-GX fighting type attacker with the same "revenge KO potential for 1 energy" just with buffed stats.

 

[FrostBiter12]

@FrostBiter12

Good, good. The idea was to further discussion. With that in mind, @Wechselbalg, while I did find some of your critiques wanting... it is quite possible you and/or FrostBiter12 can somewhat literally school me on what I've got wrong. XP Over the decades I've made some great calls and made some incredibly stupid ones. If you can explain, though, it helps me learn and become a better player and a better strategist.

(Even if I sometimes will get defensive. >_<)

So, FrostBiter12, Wechselbalg, or someone else who wants to try and explain, go ahead. We can tackle things one card at a time (I actually recommend that), and we may need to discussion current and probable future metagames as well.


For example, right now, [G] decks aren't riding all that high but they are far from absent... at least based on the three Standard Format tournaments (Jakarta Regional, Santiago Special #3, and Sau Paulo International) that happened on April 18th. Yes, that is nearly a month ago and yes, the results I found are woefully incomplete, but even with what we have, I'm seeing a 3rd place Vikabulu (out of 75 Masters) from the Jakarta Regionals and... oh boy. Sau Paulo had a magnificent 596 Masters playing. Vikabulu also took 3rd place, plus 5th, 22nd, and 58th. Zoropod showed up in Sau Paulo as the 8th, 13th, 17th, 24th, 28th, 33rd, 43rd, 46th, 49th, 50th, and 54th place finishers. The Top 64 is about 10.74% of the overall tournament turn out, and 21.875% of that are decks that focus on a [G] Type attacker. Relevance?

If we only added Zygarde-GX (and maybe Bonnie) to that metgame, and about one-in-five decks that made the Top 64 swing for double damage against it. Getting to the non-fallacious circular logic, if Zygarde-GX becomes popular and its [G] Weakness then becomes worthy of exploitation, we could easily see an even higher concentration of [G] decks.

And/or maybe some folks think ahead and we get a good metagame for Zygarde-GX because folks decided to counter the [G] with [R] decks and those incinerated most of the [G] decks. @_@

Hey @Otaku!

I'd be happy to explain! I'll start off with Malamar in 1st place.

1st Topic: Malamar-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While decks like Rayquaza/Eels and Bronzong Box (or the occasional Bronzong/M Rayquaza EX) were competitive in their time in the lime-light, I wouldn't attribute all of the credit to one card or the other out of the two-piece combo. Eelektrik (NVI) and Rayquaza EX (DRX) worked so well together that neither could be played in another deck and be as good (though Raikou/Eelektrik was a popular deck for a while). So while Malamar is a good card in that combo (of Malamar/Ultra Necrozma GX to be specific), outside of the deck is little room for Malamar to be utilized. Though I do think Malamar is a good card, I don't think that it is versatile enough to be in 1st place when it can only be played in a couple decks (and only a few of them are competitive), especially in comparison to cards like Zygarde GX which can run practically by itself (excluding necessary support cards) and more versatile cards like Diancie Prism Star. The one unique scenario that goes outside the bounds of this term is Beast Ring. Why would I put Beast Ring in 1st when it can be played in only a few decks, just like Malamar? Well, Beast Ring is a great card to be used in Beast decks and I wouldn't play a Beast deck without it, like how Malamar is to Psychic decks. The one difference is that Beast Ring can be paired with arguably one of the most powerful cards in the current format: Buzzwole GX. Not to mention a similar effect to Malamar but with twice the benefit (and cost, but pulling off two Beast Rings per game isn't really hard if you build a consistent deck).

Anyways, I hope this explains the first topic. If you have any questions on what I've mentioned, feel free to let me know! If not, I'll move onto the second topic: Diancie Prism Star.

Hope this helps!
~FrostBiter12

 

[Otaku]

Saying Mysterious Treasure is bad because Ultra Ball exists is like saying CPU Search is bad. Obviously you are not going to be able to use it in every single deck because of the type requirements, but the ones that can afford to use it will really appreciate the additional deck thinning and search effect. And it can always grab a Lele for 1 discard if you're really desperate. It's somewhat similar to how some decks that naturally used Level Ball also used Jirachi-Ex.

My point was not that Mysterious Treasure was bad simply because Ultra Ball exists; getting my argument half-right is also getting it half-wrong. The most likely Psychic/Dragon deck (the two Types that are legal search targets for Mysterious Treasure) of which I am aware is Ultra Necrozma-GX/Malamar. Okay, so we've got an obvious use for it then, right? Nope: Ultra Necrozma-GX/Malamar wants opportunities to discard. I'm not staking my life on this, but if people want to know why I am skeptical of Mysterious Treasure being highly rated, this is why. What seems like the most likely deck to feature it seems like it would be better off with Ultra Ball. XP I may easily be proven wrong if it turns out the deck only needs/wants the single discard.

I am glad you brought up Level Ball and Jirachi-EX. Sure enough, we did see such a thing emerge in some decks, where there were enough 90 HP (or smaller) targets to warrant including a Level Ball, and even a few decks where Level Ball was favored because most or all Pokémon in the deck were "Level Ball legal". It is important to note the difference between Pokémon with 90 HP or less versus Pokémon that are [P] or [N]. Even with power creep, most Evolving Basic Pokémon have 90 HP or less, and I think that holds true for Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon. Some non-Evolving Basics are this small as well. Meanwhile, [P] and [N] are two Pokémon Types out of a possible 11! If those are a much bigger competitive presence than I realize, congrats, I'm wrong.

Ability lock exists and that never stopped people from using decks that require certain abilities to be online. As for item lock - there is no valid item lock strategy in Standard at the moment and as for Expanded, I'm having a harder and harder time to take that format "seriously" in a competitive environment, just because of the amount of cheese and abuse it allows due to the ever-expanding card pool.

This begins referring to the place where I pointed out cards currently highly ranked might be taken down a notch - or even removed entirely - from a set's Top 10 by changes to card pool. You made a claim that the best cards in this set now would remain so indefinitely. I realized some of that was hyperbole but we've seen enough shifts in the cardpool/metagame that the more familiar you are with the history of the game, the more you realize such things cannot be taken for granted. My list wasn't even exhaustive; there are many ways for a top card to fall from grace.
Ability lock that is difficult to counter has prevented people from using decks that require certain Abilities function, at least if those people wanted to play competitively. Preventing some Abilities from remaining competitive is not the same as preventing all Abilities from proving competitive. We actually had such a period not long ago, prior to the release of Field Blower. Again, not all Abilities went unused, but the ones that required an Ability be on all the time greatly suffered. The same was true when Greninja BREAK was on top. The powers-that-be having a history of releasing potent anti-Item effects sooner or later, it is quite plausible - not assured - that another such effect would arise and even Beast Ring wouldn't be worth the effort.

Honestly, I don't think it requires much explaining as to why I think cards like Malamar, Treasure, Beast Ring, Diancie etc. are the ones that represent the best this set has to offer.

Which may mean you don't have an inquisitive mindset. Sometimes that is a good thing; you won't worry about "why" something works, or how you can explain it to others, you'll just use it. You don't need those when a quick decision is called for in the middle of a game. When it comes to a message board discussion? Assuming too much can be a real problem. What you think is obvious may not be obvious to everyone, or maybe it isn't correct.

 

[Wechselbalg]

This begins referring to the place where I pointed out cards currently highly ranked might be taken down a notch - or even removed entirely - from a set's Top 10 by changes to card pool. You made a claim that the best cards in this set now would remain so indefinitely. I realized some of that was hyperbole but we've seen enough shifts in the cardpool/metagame that the more familiar you are with the history of the game, the more you realize such things cannot be taken for granted. My list wasn't even exhaustive; there are many ways for a top card to fall from grace.
Ability lock that is difficult to counter has prevented people from using decks that require certain Abilities function, at least if those people wanted to play competitively. Preventing some Abilities from remaining competitive is not the same as preventing all Abilities from proving competitive. We actually had such a period not long ago, prior to the release of Field Blower. Again, not all Abilities went unused, but the ones that required an Ability be on all the time greatly suffered. The same was true when Greninja BREAK was on top. The powers-that-be having a history of releasing potent anti-Item effects sooner or later, it is quite plausible - not assured - that another such effect would arise and even Beast Ring wouldn't be worth the effort.


Which may mean you don't have an inquisitive mindset. Sometimes that is a good thing; you won't worry about "why" something works, or how you can explain it to others, you'll just use it. You don't need those when a quick decision is called for in the middle of a game. When it comes to a message board discussion? Assuming too much can be a real problem. What you think is obvious may not be obvious to everyone, or maybe it isn't correct.

I think you're still missing the point of what I'm trying to say - just because something will be hard countered at some point doesn't mean that it cannot make a comeback in some form later on or that it loses its potental altogether. What differentiates the good ones from the bad ones is that the latter are obviously unusable from the get-go, while the good ones can have a lot of different uses in the format right after they become legal and will always retain retain their potential to be combined with something that could become effective. Who said that you cannot use Treasure in the same deck as Ultra Ball, for example? Especially if you need extra discard options without having to use up the supporter for your turn.
Diancie can fit into basically any fighting archetype because who wouldn't want to do +20 dmg while it just chills on the bench and only gives up 1 prize if it draws aggro from the opponent?
Malamar can be used to accelerate energy to any psychic type that has trouble setting up otherwise. (Obviously the highly competitive options of it are limited, but it opens up energy acceleration nevertheless for a type which is lacking in that department.)

On the other hand, Metal Frying Pan is bad because a) the strongest fire archetypes can OHKO almost anything even without having to hit for weakness b) Field Blower is a card that most decks play anyway, and can be easily "spammed", therefore tools and stadiums that are active on your turn only are automatically worse than tools and stadiums that have an immediate effect. Ergo Metal Frying Pan should be nowehere near any "top lists". Same with Ultra Recon Squad. Unless TPCi decides to bring out a card that will be "Night March - the Ultra Beast Edition" this will remain a very limited draw card and you might as well just use Psychic Third's Eye or Sophocles instead, but almost no one uses those either. I wonder why.
Wink Wink Sylveon is bad because that deck already struggles in the current meta and Wink is completely random and you have to use up your attack for the turn do to it where you could have just used Magical Ribbon instead. It reminds me of a much worse version of Portrait Smeargle.

Diantha should definitely be in the top 10 because the effect is basically a reversed version of Teammates for fairy types only, but since there are several fairy archetypes that are playable this can definitely give them a chance to have a comeback mid-to-late game and gives more options to the type in general.

I think examples like these are obvious to anyone who is not a complete beginner to the game and therefore don't require an elaborate explanation. (Since PTCG is not exactly rocket science.)

 

[Otaku]

I think you're still missing the point of what I'm trying to say - just because something will be hard countered at some point doesn't mean that it cannot make a comeback in some form later on or that it loses its potental altogether.

This mostly confirms we're just talking past each other. I am well aware of what you just said... but that ain't what we've been debating. XD

It seems like you wish to assume a lot, which doesn't make for good discussion. Yes, the extreme opposite is a problem as well; you shouldn't have to explain too much either. When it comes to discussing cards in a new set, I believe it is better to err on the side of discussing them too much than not at all. So how did we get on the side discussion of what might theoretically counter the current "good" cards from the set? My attempt at warning you of the dangers of assumptions. I am not saying that Beast Ring, Buzzwole, Diancie [Prism Star] and/or Malamar are bad cards because they can be countered. I am saying that you should not assume they'll remain extremely competitive for the entire duration of their time as Standard Format legal cards.

Case in point, you think Mysterious Treasure is great. I think it is niche and not a niche that really needs to be filled. Whether I am right or I am wrong, there is room for discussion with my approach. Not with your approach. If you don't enjoy such discussion, okay. I'll stop expecting that from you. Not sure I see the point of telling each other that obviously good cards are - you know - obviously good. XP

I think examples like these are obvious to anyone who is not a complete beginner to the game and therefore don't require an elaborate explanation.

 

[Wechselbalg]

I am saying that you should not assume they'll remain extremely competitive for the entire duration of their time as Standard Format legal cards.

Nothing apart from a select few cards has the potential to remain extremely competitive for a long time - that would eradicate the point of making any sort of "new set top lists" since then it would just be Ultra Ball, the actual "discard draw 7" trainer, Hex Maniac, VS Seeker, CPU Search, Float Stone and Battle Compressor forever since they can be used in any deck. (With the exception of Compressor but Expanded is basically just a game of Battle Compressor and decks that try to capitalise on the speed of the format by trying to lock you out of using items/energy and/or deck you out asap.)
Just as an example, Aqua Patch is a good card and is also a niche card, and I'd still consider it one of the best of GRI. And there hasn't been a very competitive water deck for a while now - does that make the card bad? No. It's a flexible and effective card that can be used in several water builds, regardless of the level of "competitiveness".

Mysterious Treasure is good, not great, and certainly a better card than Frying Pan, Wink Sylveon or even Ultra Necrozma. Frying Pan is niche and bad. Sylveon is super niche and bad. Ultra Necrozma is good at the moment but big attackers are the ones that get obsolote very quickly because of the inevitable power creep in TCGs, whereas people can always find a use for a "search and thin" card. Therefore it deserves to be mentioned as one of the best the set has to offer.

My point with all this is: it is perfectly possible to make a "set top list" before the set becomes legal, and what initially "triggered" me was that you started off by explaining why it was wrong to make an early top list then proceeded to post one yourself (and a top 25 at that, which is a bit too generous for any PTCG set) with some really questionable choices on it.