(1) New Pokemon Game, ‘Pokkén Fighters’? [8/20]
- Thread starter Water Pokémon Master
- Start date
I had been wanting a pokemon fighting game for a long while. The kind I had envisioned was more like SSBB when using the pokemon trainer, with each pokemon getting is own moves and combos and smash attack. You could do teams of six pokemon against an opponent using six and you play as the pokemon. Or it could maybe just be 4 people playing, each using one and trying to knock the others out. All pokemon would be playable, but some would be stage restricted.
For example, on a regular old pokemon stadium like battle stage let's say the four pokemon being used are:
.Golurk
.Poliwrath
.Salamence
.Musharna
All those pokemon can participate because they can all move around on regular terrain. A pokemon like Goldeen or Lanturn would not be able to play in that level because they can't really move around, besides flopping really.
Other battle areas would be ones with a mixture of above surface fighting areas, and underwater fighting. Kind of like platforms on water like some of the water type gym. Or there could be areas where only pokemon that can fly would fight (like sky battles) and you would be zipping around the screen fighting eachother in the air. Maybe another for just legendary pokemon. Pokemon would be able be in multiple arena categories. A Poliwrath could be in a regular stadium style terrain fight, and could also be in underwater battles. Golurk could also conceivably be in one of the sky arenas because it can learn fly.
Other things like weakness and resistance could be factored in as doing 1.5 damage or .5 damage or however. The life bar would be a percent where the higher it is, the easier it is to be knocked from the arena (like SSB) that way type based weaknesses aren't want decide the battle entirely, but also your skill with the pokemon.
But a tekken style game could also be really fun. Blaziken, Lucario, Machamp, Ampharos, Sceptile, Golduck? I would think most of the pokemon used would have humanoid like forms though. And then the "random character" button would just be a ditto, and then the ditto transforms into the random character when the battle intro starts!
For example, on a regular old pokemon stadium like battle stage let's say the four pokemon being used are:
.Golurk
.Poliwrath
.Salamence
.Musharna
All those pokemon can participate because they can all move around on regular terrain. A pokemon like Goldeen or Lanturn would not be able to play in that level because they can't really move around, besides flopping really.
Other battle areas would be ones with a mixture of above surface fighting areas, and underwater fighting. Kind of like platforms on water like some of the water type gym. Or there could be areas where only pokemon that can fly would fight (like sky battles) and you would be zipping around the screen fighting eachother in the air. Maybe another for just legendary pokemon. Pokemon would be able be in multiple arena categories. A Poliwrath could be in a regular stadium style terrain fight, and could also be in underwater battles. Golurk could also conceivably be in one of the sky arenas because it can learn fly.
Other things like weakness and resistance could be factored in as doing 1.5 damage or .5 damage or however. The life bar would be a percent where the higher it is, the easier it is to be knocked from the arena (like SSB) that way type based weaknesses aren't want decide the battle entirely, but also your skill with the pokemon.
But a tekken style game could also be really fun. Blaziken, Lucario, Machamp, Ampharos, Sceptile, Golduck? I would think most of the pokemon used would have humanoid like forms though. And then the "random character" button would just be a ditto, and then the ditto transforms into the random character when the battle intro starts!
garbodorable said:TreIII said:
If Namco is incapable of balancing characters of different sizes and body types, that's their problem. The MvC series has had characters as big as a full-screen sentinel, and quadrupeds like Amaterasu. And they're fantastic games, all told. Those characters aren't gimmicks and have both been upper-tier fighters.
It would be a real shame if characters weren't scaled up and down, considering that's what happens in every depiction of them. Seriously, nobody pays attention to the pokedex heights. The anime doesn't, Super Smash Bros doesn't, the handheld games haven't (but I guess we'll see with the 3d models). When pokemon are actually scaled correctly, it looks wrong. Nobody imagines Bulbasaur on all fours being twice the height of Chespin.
So a pokemon fighting game would be wise to scale pokemon to be closer in relation to each other, small to small, large to large. But characters twice to 2.5x the height of other characters is very doable.
As for the P1 Grand Prix, I wouldn't be totally against something solidly in-universe like that. But it is the anime universe, and there's a good reason why the handheld games have never done a restrictive tournament like that. It's kind of against the spirit of pokemon to exclude certain types (or practically all of them) from a competition. Aerial battles are the closest thing they've ever done, and there's a good thematic and environmental reason for those.
I wasn't aware fighting games had implemented extreme size differences... if it's possible having, say, a chikorita fight with a garchomp and make that a balanced fight, I'm all for it. Still, I think of tekken and I think of fighting-type pokemon, I wouldn't really mind if every pokemon were of the same size, bipedal, and fighting type, after all, one can't expect to get 549 unique pokemon in a fighing game...
Frezgle said:
You must be new here... ever heard of smogon? don't go there then please, it's a corrupting place.
How much time do you think will pass before "the smogon effect" (the obsessive application of in-game principles and mechanics to improve productivity and competitiveness to the maximum) applies to pokken fighters? it even happens in smash bros, the quintessential simple, goofy, play-for-fun-with-friends fighting game.
garbodorable said:If Namco is incapable of balancing characters of different sizes and body types, that's their problem. The MvC series has had characters as big as a full-screen sentinel, and quadrupeds like Amaterasu. And they're fantastic games, all told. Those characters aren't gimmicks and have both been upper-tier fighters.
There's one caveat to that, though. MvC, even though it uses 3D graphics, is still a 2D-style fighter. In other words, these types of things aren't so much of an issue because in a 2D game, it's just a matter of assigning a character a reasonable hitbox and balancing their style of play around a game where you only have to worry about moving along the X and Y axes.
In a "pure" 3D fighter (re: Tekken, DOA, SC, VF), it's definitely a different thing. You have an extra axis to consider. You have to consider how these unorthodox-sized/shaped characters maneuver in a 3D arena, in relation to the other characters. You'd have to make sure that their animations are appropriate to be used with other characters, and vice-versa.
For all that Tekken may have random animals, demons and robots fighting humans, one thing is certain: they've always stuck strictly with bipeds, because the animations for those characters are readily able to interact with that of humans. If Namco or any other notable 3D fighting game staff is involved with, I would expect a similar design ethic, unless I stand to be truly surprised. It may be Namco's "problem", but everybody else would have to deal with it, one way or another.
Smash Bros. has the excuse that nobody is designed to scale, due to how they're all "figures/trophies" (which makes Sakurai's reason for Ridley's exclusion because he's "too big" all the sillier).
But, in any case, the 3D console Poké-games have almost always done something to try and make the scale a bit more "believable", as those who extracted models from some of the most recent games would go on to showcase:
With X/Y now finally being "proper" Pokémon game with 3D graphical models, I'd honestly expect TPC as a whole to embrace this aspect some more, since now there's really no more reason for them to shy away from it. It kinda defeats the point of utilizing 3D graphics, if you're not also going to play around with the sense of scale a bit.
But anyway, back on "Pokkén"!
Let's not forget: in the original teaser shot, it definitely looks safe to assume that Blaziken will tower over Lucario, as it rightfully should. So if a sense of scale already is apparent with two of this game's proverbial "stars"? I'd honestly expect them to do more with it, and (hopefully) balance the game around it.
Actually, going by how the P1 Grand Prix is/was listed on Gamefreak's and Pokemon.com's website, it would seem safe to presume that it's not just an "anime" thing, but rather something that may pertain to the background of the Pokéworld itself. Which perhaps gives it a bit more veracity, but we'll have to wait and see about that.
But besides that...you go ahead and list Aerial battles as being solid reasons for exclusions...wouldn't a Fighting-based tournament be a "good thematic and environmental reason", as well?
I mean, we are talking about the same series where the likes of Amity Square (re: only a predefined set of "small/cute" Pokémon are allowed to enter with you) exists. Where was the "spirit" there, eh?
To me, it just makes sense that there would actually be segments/facets of the Pokéworld that would have things that are specifically tailored to specific Pokémon. Aerial battles, Amity Square, P1 and even the various mini-games that are abound in the Stadium games would be examples of this. It all works towards the meta-series' overall "aesthetic", in my eyes, thus why I don't really have a problem with such. And if they don't go that way with the final product, fine. But I would actually like to see such a thing made, if TPC were to allow it!
Frezgle said:Like, can you see Pikachu getting excluded?
Entirely? Probably not. Even if he's not a playable character, he'll likely be in the game in some form or fashion (maybe as a referee)?
If Sakurai's quotes regarding which Pokémon get into Smash games are anything to go by? That, as well as the rest of the roster of this supposed game, will likely depend on a number of factors. The main ones being a) what Namco (or whoever is working on this title) wants to do and b) what TPC is willing to allow them to do.
But I'd like to think the fact that Lucario and Blaziken were chosen was certainly not by accident. Not only are the two characters easily two of the most popular and recognizable characters in the "Fighting" type class, which makes them excellent choices for "posterboys" associated with a new product. The two of them also stand to tie directly into TPC's marketing plans regarding X/Y and their new Mega-Evos, which helps advertise both products, even if not every "Mega-able" Pokémon gets in the game.
professorlight said:
Even so, Smash should demonstrate that there's nothing wrong with a game having something for different types of audiences, casual, hardcore and everything in between. Namco's own Soulcalibur series has been doing just that for years on end, so I'd like to think that they could apply similar here with a game of this sort that should be marketed as widely as possible.
Frost said:
Yep! Here's the source: http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=37975394
TreIII said:
Fair points. I would just rather see a game designed with the goal of incorporating as wide and interesting a variety of pokemon as possible. I mean, that's the strength of pokemon as a brand. As a fan, I don't want to hear "we're going to make a Tekken-style 3D fighter, then put pokemon in it that most closely resemble Tekken fighters." I want to hear, "we're going to make a pokemon fighting game, in a style that suits pokemon the best." And given the greater leeway and creative freedom offered by 2D game design, in terms of size and body types, I would hope it's a 2D setup.
Actually, going by how the P1 Grand Prix is/was listed on Gamefreak's and Pokemon.com's website, it would seem safe to presume that it's not just an "anime" thing, but rather something that may pertain to the background of the Pokéworld itself. Which perhaps gives it a bit more veracity, but we'll have to wait and see about that.
But besides that...you go ahead and list Aerial battles as being solid reasons for exclusions...wouldn't a Fighting-based tournament be a "good thematic and environmental reason", as well?
I mean, we are talking about the same series where the likes of Amity Square (re: only a predefined set of "small/cute" Pokémon are allowed to enter with you) exists. Where was the "spirit" there, eh?
I wasn't aware of the Grand Prix being referenced outside the anime. But I don't consider it a good thematic or environmental reason, because putting two pokemon on level ground and telling them to fight is just... a normal pokemon battle... with the arbitrary exclusion of everything but fighting, rock and ground types. If it's a boxing ring, or the street environment from that teaser, a Scyther can fit in those environments just as easily as a Hitmonchan can. Whereas if you're fighting in the sky (the sky being a theme of X/Y), obviously only flying and levitating pokemon can go there.
I agree the spirit was lacking with Amity Square. I'm sure no small amount of gamers were offended that their adorable Steelix and Garchomps weren't considered cute enough to be seen in public. But the purpose of that was pretty much a tech demo for walking your pokemon in HG/SS. They probably didn't have time to make walking sprites for all 400+ pokemon right then. That doesn't mean TPC is looking to make more Amity Square scenarios, if they can help it.
I can see the appeal of the Grand Prix and how it would make a convenient and appropriate focus for the first ever pokemon fighting game. I just don't think, given that they'd be starting a whole new line of games essentially, that choosing something obscure and exclusionary like that would be the best way to go.
one of the recent episodes had a wrestling tournament and basically everyone got their burliest pokemon and just tried to throw each other outside of a ring, no actual moves at besides the average punches at all.
I assume it would be like that, where no one's shooting lightning or lazer beams just pure rough housing. In that sense they could do it like Injustice and have Speed, strength, and skill characters, that fight differently. obviously big pokemon would be strength, and small pokemon would be speed with medium sized pokemon being in between the two.
I assume it would be like that, where no one's shooting lightning or lazer beams just pure rough housing. In that sense they could do it like Injustice and have Speed, strength, and skill characters, that fight differently. obviously big pokemon would be strength, and small pokemon would be speed with medium sized pokemon being in between the two.
garbodorable said:
Well, from what little that we've been privy to know about the P1? It's not a "normal" Pokémon battle. It's 1 v. 1, where you pick that Fighting Pokemon and stick with them for the entire tournament. And it caters specifically to a certain type of Pokémon...not unlike what Sky Battles do. There might be more rules showcased, assuming they actually do go full-blown with this.
But again, I don't see what the problem is, considering we've had events like "Fancy Cups" and "Little Cups/Battles" that go out of their way to ban Evolved Pokemon or otherwise Pokémon that don't fit into that cup's "weight class", along with other special rulings.
Special Battles that have special rules or otherwise cater to specific genres/classes of Pokémon have been a part of the series for years now. So having a game that focused on another type of such a battle would really be nothing new, to me.
Well, one counter-point is that, as stated above, it's not as if the series has never had certain events/battles geared towards, or made exclusively for certain Pokémon, over others. Furthermore, it's not as if the various spin-off games have always made sure that nobody's favorites got left out and that you always had a choice for which Pokémon you wanted to choose. These exclusions happen all the time. In fact, the general rule of thumb is that the farther your favorite Pokémon dwells outside the "safe" echelon of the cute mascots (Pikachu and friends), movie posterboys/girls and the starters? The more likely you'll be disappointed when they aren't included in the game.
So, having said that? I'd actually think it be refreshing if Pokkén was allowed to a) stick with a certain, clearly defined theme and b) choose its roster based explicitly on that theme. After all, there's no shortage of diversity for Pokémon that could be included in such a game, even if you do stick with the bipeds within the Fighting/Ground/Rock class, not to mention if, again, this is extended even to Pokémon that the TCG have given Fighting type attributes too, like Blastoise, Electabuzz and Nidoking. (And I'm sure those won't be the only ones given such treatment.)
And of course, there's nothing that says that they might play with the roster in other interesting ways, such as making some other Pokémon "summons/assist-only characters", not unlike in Type Wild, MvC and etc. And who knows? If the game does well enough to see sequels, they might obviously feel a bit better about expanding the roster in other ways.
But again, I can't reiterate it enough: the fact that this game seems to be establishing itself as something different, and with Lucario and Blaziken poised as the "stars" is what interests me the most. If it was just another fighting game with Pikachu in it, then I could see why some would already pose such questions as "what's the point if Smash already exists"?
I seriously think it's just another thing like Sky Battles... Just another somewhat gimmicky battle type to show off features of the 3DS/game (like rotation/trips in gen 5)
iSharingan said:
Well, it could only be possible if it was a teaser/promo for that (like the Xerneas and Yveltal scene), since the 3DS cannot hold those graphics. The Wii U can, obviously.
By the way, since there are so many theories here, I'll just drop another one (not sure if it was mentioned before). It could also be a Fighting game but only for Pokémon that have a Mega Evolution but it would feel a lot like Dragon Ball. ^^'
I was watching a video and they brought up a few things.
The fist on the poster in the BG. Possibly the "Pokken Tournament" in "Pokken Fighters"
The Poken NFC tech in the Wii U could mean you could save your pokemon's moves and stuff on there so you can go to your friend's house and battle with them.
Something I noticed, however, is the Pokemon language, and a few posters in the background featuring a silhouette of a pokemon in action. Maybe this is going to be the fighting version of the Battle Royales in Pokemon Rumble. You go through a lot and lead up to a battle against a tough legendary. In this case, Mewtwo would fit well.
The fist on the poster in the BG. Possibly the "Pokken Tournament" in "Pokken Fighters"
The Poken NFC tech in the Wii U could mean you could save your pokemon's moves and stuff on there so you can go to your friend's house and battle with them.
Something I noticed, however, is the Pokemon language, and a few posters in the background featuring a silhouette of a pokemon in action. Maybe this is going to be the fighting version of the Battle Royales in Pokemon Rumble. You go through a lot and lead up to a battle against a tough legendary. In this case, Mewtwo would fit well.
FloodBadge said:
Good observations.
Your NFC figure idea would definitely come into play if this is indeed a game where you could actually build-up "custom" versions of the in-game character that you could level up and customize with different move layouts and the like.
The last time something of this was sort was done was back with ARIKA/Craft & Meister's "Super Dragon Ball Z" for Arcades and PS2 (2005/2006). In that game, you could create up to 30 custom versions of the default characters that you could tweak as you liked, so that their moveset and attributes could better suit your needs. Of course, trading/battling characters was made much easier back in the days when all we had to worry about was carrying around Memory Cards! I don't know how much memory these NFC figures can hold, but I would much rather just be able to export to SD cards and keep it moving.
But in any case! Since ARIKA and Craft & Meister are both still on Bamco's payroll, making a Pokémon-themed fighter based on SDBZ's design could be just the kind of thing I could see them doing.
Nintendo JUST announced NFC figures and they said they are going to be used for multiple games. I think we'll see something about this game at E3
I really hope that Pokken Fighters is like Super Smash Bros but entirely Pokémon themed, with some other extra things. In place of the smash ball would be a 'Mega Orb'. Pokémon that receive mega evolutions will get to play in their mega forms for 15 seconds. Pokémon that cant mega evolve that hit the ball get a boost in attack and speed for 15 seconds.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that awesome 3D footage of Lucario and some other Pokemon (I think). Man, an SSB-like series focused on Pokemon would be so. Awesome!
Just for the record, the other pokemon was Blaziken. Only time will tell how that plays out. I also want to point out that "Pokken Fighters" may not be the name they use. It was simply copyrighted shortly before or after the clip appeared. If you recall, a similar thing happened with the a web domain hinting at a possible name of "Pokemon Grey" in place of Pokemon Black 2/White 2. Futhermore, 'Pokken' could potentially spark some sort of legal battle with the makers of 'Tekken' fighting games. I'm not saying I know what will be used and what won't; I simply wish to present these ideas as food for thought before more blind speculation ensues.Frost Mage said:
If anything, the name itself is just another hint that Namco (the makers of Tekken) themselves are involved with the project in some way, hence the particular/peculiar name. As if the deleted tweet from the producer of Soulcalibur that he made around the time of last year's Pokémon Game Show (where that Lucario v. Blaziken clip was revealed) wasn't enough!iSharingan said:
