(1) Rules Changes Coming with X/Y TCG [9/27]

[DNA]

The new Pokémon-EX were a way for Legendary Pokémon to be as powerful in the TCG as they are in the video games, but without being overpowered like in the video games.

I think you have it backwards. They're OP in the TCG and on par with most other things in the video games (excluding the Ubers, of course). Funnily enough, two notable ones that aren't considered Uber in the videogames (Landorus and Keldeo) are causing the most trouble, and even Virizion and possibly Cobalion are irritating to deal with. In the videogames, they're just like the next guy.

I wasn't around for the RSE era but I've heard it was quite balanced all around, as pretty much anything was playable if you built right. I was around for DP, however, and I think they did basic Legends vs Stage 2s the right way: you can either play basic Legends for a quick burst of power but a rather low overall attack power potential, or play Stage 2s that take a bit longer to set-up but the payoff is greater.

BW is doing it wrong. It's giving basic Pokemon that give an even greater playoff than evolving. The 2-prize trade is not an adequate compensation if they're centralizing the game (which they are). DP did have this problem, to an extent, but it was not nearly as bad as it is now.

 

[Otaku]

The new Pokémon-EX were a way for Legendary Pokémon to be as powerful in the TCG as they are in the video games, but without being overpowered like in the video games.

I think you have it backwards. They're OP in the TCG and on par with most other things in the video games (excluding the Ubers, of course).

I gave up playing the video games "seriously"... Gen I or II. I thought Legendary Pokémon had a high likelihood of being considered übers but if I got that wrong, I got that wrong.

Speaking of which, I think you misunderstood my point: conceptually Pokémon-EX aren't a problem. In fact, many aren't issues. Just like regular non-Evolving Basic Pokémon, just like the select few Evolutions, there just are some overpowered examples, and they are dominating the format.

I wasn't around for the RSE era but I've heard it was quite balanced all around, as pretty much anything was playable if you built right.

Depends on what you mean by "balanced" and "playable". Pidgeot from EX Fire Red/Leaf Green was a huge problem, but you'll find I am in the minority who feel that way. Old Rare Candy rules made it so that it was really easy to run a 1-0-1, 2-0-2, or 2-1-2 line in almost all decks. It was so potent that you basically had to run it, run the primary counter card for it (Battle Frontier, a Stadium that shut off Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies for (C), (D), and (M) Type Pokémon) plus the one real alternative, Magcargo (EX: Deoxys 20/107).

Until Battle Frontier released in EX: Emerald the format was almost totally dominated by two decks: Dragtrode (Dark Dragonite plus Dark Electrode, EX: Team Rocket Returns versions) and Dark Tryanitar decks (three flavors; both EX: Team Rocket Returns versions or selecting one or the other). Battle Frontier was pretty much a hard counter to those two decks and Pidgeot.

What made the bird so insidious was it basically allowed your opponent to pull the perfect TecH card from his/her deck to counter you. Once we got cards likeScramble Energy it got even worse; you could make a skillful play and pull ahead... only for your opponent to drop a Basic Pokémon from hand, use Rare Candy on it to Evolve into its final Stage, drop a Scramble Energy so that you could now use any attack with a cost of three Energy or less... and did I mention POW! Hand Extension if it was... handy?

It really was one of the best formats, but it certainly had issues... which were never really corrected and a source of headaches in later formats.

I was around for DP, however, and I think they did basic Legends vs Stage 2s the right way: you can either play basic Legends for a quick burst of power but a rather low overall attack power potential, or play Stage 2s that take a bit longer to set-up but the payoff is greater.

Except that wasn't strictly true due to Evolution acceleration, was it? You could hit hard and fast either way, Evolutions just required more cards. I've already stated that nothing should hit fast, so while you are free to disagree with me, it shouldn't come as a surprise that it is disagreement.

BW is doing it wrong. It's giving basic Pokemon that give an even greater playoff than evolving. The 2-prize trade is not an adequate compensation if they're centralizing the game (which they are). DP did have this problem, to an extent, but it was not nearly as bad as it is now.

DP had other problems, but that isn't the main concern right now.

If you want a format where non-Evolving Basic Pokémon are balanced against non-Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon and both against Stage 2 Pokémon, you have to design them so that the end results are balanced and the means to getting to those end results have similar pacing. The non-Evolving Basic Pokémon needs to be a dud until it has had a few turns to set-up (Pokémon-EX or not) if it is meant to be a "main attacker". This gives time for the Evolutions to, you know, Evolve.

You then need the Pokémon that the Evolutions Evolve from to actually have a purpose besides Evolving. Doing this means that the extra "slots" required by Evolving Pokémon are serving double duty; the Evolving Basic Pokémon can (for example) be a useful opener, which the "takes time to ready" non-Evolving Basic Pokémon attacker is also going to need (because it should be a huge target otherwise long before it can counter attack). If there is an Evolving Stage 1, it should probably contain an effect that is really only useful in a deck focused on the Stage 2 form, but that has the potency of a Supporter (if one and done) or an Item (if re-usable).

 

[DNA]

Speaking of which, I think you misunderstood my point: conceptually Pokémon-EX aren't a problem. In fact, many aren't issues. Just like regular non-Evolving Basic Pokémon, just like the select few Evolutions, there just are some overpowered examples, and they are dominating the format.

True enough. But if they're big enough to be a problem, then...well, they're big enough to be a problem. I'll grant that not every EX is overbearing, but the ones that are pose a lot of problems for the format. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not take the risk and just abolish it altogether for now, until they learn how to do it right.
(Remember back when Pokemon-EX came out? You had 5 nobodies and Mewtwo. Zekrom-EX was played mostly because Eels were huge, and little else. Mewtwo went on to have a stranglehold on the format for the next year. It became the "new Luxray" - either you play it or you play around it, and there was no third choice.)

What made the bird so insidious was it basically allowed your opponent to pull the perfect TecH card from his/her deck to counter you. Once we got cards likeScramble Energy it got even worse; you could make a skillful play and pull ahead... only for your opponent to drop a Basic Pokémon from hand, use Rare Candy on it to Evolve into its final Stage, drop a Scramble Energy so that you could now use any attack with a cost of three Energy or less... and did I mention POW! Hand Extension if it was... handy?

Though, wouldn't Pidgeot be the problem here? Scramble Energy and Pow! Hand Extension...you only got the effects of those cards if you were behind. Pidgeot is in the same ilk as Claydol - something with a good Ability that everyone can use. You can argue whether or not that's a good thing, but nowadays we don't have that. The closest thing we have is Ultra Ball.

Except that wasn't strictly true due to Evolution acceleration, was it? You could hit hard and fast either way, Evolutions just required more cards. I've already stated that nothing should hit fast, so while you are free to disagree with me, it shouldn't come as a surprise that it is disagreement.

More cards, yes, but a little more power as well. Though LuxChomp was incredibly good at what it did, all its attacks had drawbacks in some way. The Stage 2s of the time generally had about the same power, if not more, without a drawback, to compensate. It was a choice of either power or speed, and both were legitimate choices. (Or you could end up with a freak like me who ran Regigigas in that format and had the best of both worlds.)

...and then I realized, what does any of this have to do with the X/Y rule changes?

 

[Nicor123]

so if i read the rules correct, u cant even see ur openinghand before u decide to go first or not :/
reddiculous

 

[Otaku]

I'd rather not take the risk and just abolish it altogether for now, until they learn how to do it right.

Can't say I disagree with you there; I just wanted to be clear that the idea of some Pokémon being more powerful but having a higher Prize payout when KOed doesn't appear to be inherently flawed; the execution by the-powers-that-be has just been terrible.

Except that wasn't strictly true due to Evolution acceleration, was it? You could hit hard and fast either way, Evolutions just required more cards. I've already stated that nothing should hit fast, so while you are free to disagree with me, it shouldn't come as a surprise that it is disagreement.

Yes, it was. Without any form of Evolution acceleration, Pidgeot wouldn't hit the field until your third turn, as opposed to hitting the field the first turn you could play Items. It would do so significantly less reliably at the counts with which it was run; as stated players were dedicating just 2-5 slots for it. Its Quick Search Poké-Power did not stack, so you only needed two if you were really worried your first was going to be KOed. In the case of Rare Candy specifically, it allowed more pooling of resources; any deck running a Stage 2 was already going to run Rare Candy, and many Stage 1 decks would consider it.

It was quite common early game to burn one Rare Candy to get your Pidgeot into play, then to search for a second to use on whatever other Stage 2 Pokémon you were using (note that Pokémon in this case could be plural or singular). Scramble Energy was also a problem, and by tossing it in there I did confuse the issue; for that I apologize. Still, just being able to produce a Stage 2 from hand in a single turn was not conducive to balancing out the various Stages. What happens when you keep the same potent Pokémon but lose Rare Candy?

More cards, yes, but a little more power as well. Though LuxChomp was incredibly good at what it did, all its attacks had drawbacks in some way. The Stage 2s of the time generally had about the same power, if not more, without a drawback, to compensate. It was a choice of either power or speed, and both were legitimate choices. (Or you could end up with a freak like me who ran Regigigas in that format and had the best of both worlds.)

I did poorly word a part; my point was that Basic Pokémon usually struggled during this time; Stage 2 Pokémon required more cards but were more powerful, and with Rare Candy were just as fast. It was the Level Up and/or SP cards that started shifting things back to non-Evolutions, though most of that era was when I had to take a break from competitive play so go ahead and let me know if that wasn't the case.

...and then I realized, what does any of this have to do with the X/Y rule changes?

The new rule changes don't fix the problems with card design, they just fundamentally change parts of the game to bypass the problems... not guaranteed to work, and since I have been around most of the last (nearly) 15 years (I took a break here and there), I've seen first hand how ignoring problems just means they blow up later.

You also made a comment about this era, so technically you're the one who brought it up. ;-)

 

[SynxS1N]

To be honest there's no use in these long drawn out arguments (especially when they repeat the same things). These changes are coming to the TCG, bottom line, and we need to prepare ourselves. When the scans for the next few sets are released and we get word from the Japanese meta we will able to better assess the legitimacy of these changes. For now everything is repeated speculation or senseless babbling.

We need to be more constructive in this forum. Stating your opinion on the rules or a different change is fine, once, but anymore than that and it's not helping anyone. We should be talking about different pokemon that may be viable with the changes, trainers that may get a chance to see play, and other ideas that might be possible looking forward.

 

[Otaku]

To be honest there's no use in these long drawn out arguments (especially when they repeat the same things). These changes are coming to the TCG, bottom line, and we need to prepare ourselves.

Educating others on how to analyze the situation is "preparing" them. I do not know if I will persist even in my minimal involvement in this game after X&Y. Due to my fear I was spending too much time on it (and yet not enough to achieve anything constructive) that I should go on hiatus until a later date, and that perhaps I shall never return. Such is my level of dissatisfaction over that which I perceive (and have never received adequate justification for) flaws in the execution of this game. Things I could handle when the game was "new", but that became more and more trying over nearly a decade and a half of exposure.

When the scans for the next few sets are released and we get word from the Japanese meta we will able to better assess the legitimacy of these changes. For now everything is repeated speculation or senseless babbling.

We have the current card pool. Some of us have long term experience or phenomenal talent (...I fall into the former, not the latter). It is dangerous to base too much on just these things... but it is also folly to disregard them. Analysis and speculation is a part of life; you look at the weather report, check the current weather as well, and make up your mind whether bringing a coat or umbrella along is prudent or just a needless burden.

I do not know how much of your comments, SynxS1N, are directed at me; given that I am the one repeatedly posting to this thread, I would think I am the intended audience but I fear I am elevating my importance in making such an assumption.

Sometimes I restate my point too often because I am stubborn. However other times I state it multiple times because that is the nature of a discussion. This is a forum, after all. If someone brings up the same point I believe to be in error over and over again, it can vary from my prerogative to my duty to refute it. It is how we learn. Some of us (sadly myself far too often) are slow learners; we may have to hear something twice, thrice, and yet again and again before it is understood.

Not everyone reads a thread all the way through before posting (though I believe that as a general rule, one should). Not everyone has good reading retention; so while it can in grating (especially when it is someone such as myself who struggles to be clear and concise), I feel the need to repeat myself if an earlier point has been challenged but not actually disproved (or at least adequately and accurately countered)... and more importantly at least some of the time, that need isn't just "felt" but is legitimately there.

For all the people telling me to shut up and that I am an idiot who doesn't know what I am talking about, I'll also get people who let me know they "had never thought of it that way before" despite having made such points in multiple posts... in multiple threads... sometimes for years.

TL;DR: There is no use for quiet agreement when people are neither in agreement nor is the standing conclusion correct.

 

[DNA]

Educating others on how to analyze the situation is "preparing" them. I do not know if I will persist even in my minimal involvement in this game after X&Y. Due to my fear I was spending too much time on it (and yet not enough to achieve anything constructive) that I should go on hiatus until a later date, and that perhaps I shall never return. Such is my level of dissatisfaction over that which I perceive (and have never received adequate justification for) flaws in the execution of this game. Things I could handle when the game was "new", but that became more and more trying over nearly a decade and a half of exposure.

Join the club; we've got jackets.

 

[SynxS1N]

To be honest there's no use in these long drawn out arguments (especially when they repeat the same things). These changes are coming to the TCG, bottom line, and we need to prepare ourselves.

Educating others on how to analyze the situation is "preparing" them. I do not know if I will persist even in my minimal involvement in this game after X&Y. Due to my fear I was spending too much time on it (and yet not enough to achieve anything constructive) that I should go on hiatus until a later date, and that perhaps I shall never return. Such is my level of dissatisfaction over that which I perceive (and have never received adequate justification for) flaws in the execution of this game. Things I could handle when the game was "new", but that became more and more trying over nearly a decade and a half of exposure.

When the scans for the next few sets are released and we get word from the Japanese meta we will able to better assess the legitimacy of these changes. For now everything is repeated speculation or senseless babbling.

We have the current card pool. Some of us have long term experience or phenomenal talent (...I fall into the former, not the latter). It is dangerous to base too much on just these things... but it is also folly to disregard them. Analysis and speculation is a part of life; you look at the weather report, check the current weather as well, and make up your mind whether bringing a coat or umbrella along is prudent or just a needless burden.

I do not know how much of your comments, SynxS1N, are directed at me; given that I am the one repeatedly posting to this thread, I would think I am the intended audience but I fear I am elevating my importance in making such an assumption.

Sometimes I restate my point too often because I am stubborn. However other times I state it multiple times because that is the nature of a discussion. This is a forum, after all. If someone brings up the same point I believe to be in error over and over again, it can vary from my prerogative to my duty to refute it. It is how we learn. Some of us (sadly myself far too often) are slow learners; we may have to hear something twice, thrice, and yet again and again before it is understood.

Not everyone reads a thread all the way through before posting (though I believe that as a general rule, one should). Not everyone has good reading retention; so while it can in grating (especially when it is someone such as myself who struggles to be clear and concise), I feel the need to repeat myself if an earlier point has been challenged but not actually disproved (or at least adequately and accurately countered)... and more importantly at least some of the time, that need isn't just "felt" but is legitimately there.

For all the people telling me to shut up and that I am an idiot who doesn't know what I am talking about, I'll also get people who let me know they "had never thought of it that way before" despite having made such points in multiple posts... in multiple threads... sometimes for years.

TL;DR: There is no use for quiet agreement when people are neither in agreement nor is the standing conclusion correct.

I see and appreciate all your points. I don't disagree with your statements but I've read this entire forum and I'm looking for more than the same things (and you may be a main offender but you are not the sole one).

I want to talk about how we can handle these (now abrupt) changes. With regionals being the last tournament with the current rules a discussion on adapting would be most useful.

If you aren't going to play anymore or have a rant to let off that's fine, that's part of discussing in a forum (or discussing in general lol). I'm not complaining about that. I feel, though, that after that is said and done we need to let the reality set in and make this something constructive.

I actually might start a topic on this subject since this forum has proven dead to anything progressive. Link to come soon for anyone that wants to talk about the upcoming changes constructively.

 

[Otaku]

I see and appreciate all your points. I don't disagree with your statements but I've read this entire forum and I'm looking for more than the same things (and you may be a main offender but you are not the sole one).

I understand that this is annoying.

However my experience is that leaving such things unanswered is dangerous; doing so has been used as evidence in discussions at later dates, and I've had to repair damage because "the last comment" became the jumping on point for the next page of discussion... and by that point it is most difficult to walk back, and can leave a false foundation for years to come.

If it is really that frustrating for you... perhaps the answer is to leave the discussion? Hard to believe though it may be, I've left entire message boards for that reason... and you can tell I struggle to let go of such things.

I want to talk about how we can handle these (now abrupt) changes. With regionals being the last tournament with the current rules a discussion on adapting would be most useful.

That would be something to start a new thread over, I think. This was a thread for discussing a "news" item on the website's main page, while what you describe is ongoing strategy for the game. I realize you later state you were thinking of doing such a thing, but given our current back-and-forth, I feel I should emphasize that I believe it to be the best course of action.

 

[lvivas]

With the way things are going, I would advise people to skip the next BW set if they play competitively because of the shakiness of the format. If I

were in their shoes, I would save up my money and buy the XY booster box base set once it comes out in February to see if things have changed

instead of fruitless spending money on reprints/too many big exs. This is just my opinion though if you are on a budget. However, I would spend money

on singles to create/modify your own decks still, but I just wouldn't really advise people to buy more BW booster boxes.