When N and Brigette leave us, what Supporters will we use? I heard Lillie and PFC are getting popular.
Discussion (2019-On) What Supporters will we Use?
- Thread starter IronCow Tom
- Start date
I'd personally never use Fan Club as a straight-up subsitute for Brigette. I think right now Lillie, Steven's Advice or even Apricot Maker (with Nest Balls for decks that need a full bench asap) are safe bets for turn 1 supporters. Other than that, Cynthia, Copycat and some decks might be able to use Judge effectively as well, but I personally wouldn't play that card in every archetype.
EDIT: forgot about Tate and Liza.
EDIT: forgot about Tate and Liza.
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Lillie,cynthia ,tate and Liza, and guzma will be the standard supporters with others like kiawe and acerola being played in decks that they are used in now. Will likely see more pal pad usage as well
Here’s what I see getting Maindecked in most of the meta:
3-4 Cynthia
4 - Lillie (if you are using a heavy Nest+Ultra Ball line)
3-4 Guzma
——————-
Here’s what I think are going to be optional or used in specific builds:
4 - TV Reporter/Sophocles (Malamar builds)
4 - Kiawe (fire decks)
2/3 - Acerola
2/3 - Volkner (VikaBulu)
2 - Judge/Ilima
2 - Diantha (Gardevoir+Sylveon/Magcargo)
1/2 - Copycat
1/2 - Lisia (Decks using Buzzwole)
1 - Steven’s Decision (for the off chance you got first AND get this in your opening hand. I see people doing this, but I think it’s a waste)
1 - Lusamine (dependent on how intense the Stadium war becomes as meta establishes)
3-4 Cynthia
4 - Lillie (if you are using a heavy Nest+Ultra Ball line)
3-4 Guzma
——————-
Here’s what I think are going to be optional or used in specific builds:
4 - TV Reporter/Sophocles (Malamar builds)
4 - Kiawe (fire decks)
2/3 - Acerola
2/3 - Volkner (VikaBulu)
2 - Judge/Ilima
2 - Diantha (Gardevoir+Sylveon/Magcargo)
1/2 - Copycat
1/2 - Lisia (Decks using Buzzwole)
1 - Steven’s Decision (for the off chance you got first AND get this in your opening hand. I see people doing this, but I think it’s a waste)
1 - Lusamine (dependent on how intense the Stadium war becomes as meta establishes)
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Can't ever seeing myself playing 4 of Lillie when Copy Cat/Judge/ and Cynthia are in the format. If anything, since the game is moving to be more aggressive Hala may be used more often than her as well (although this is speculation).
Volkner will also become a staple in Bulu/Raquaza GX and any deck that plays lightning post rotation.
Volkner will also become a staple in Bulu/Raquaza GX and any deck that plays lightning post rotation.
Thanks for bringing up Volkner and Copycat. Completely forgot about those.
VikaBulu is going to be in a weird spot post-rotation. It’s the only ‘old’ deck that loses next to nothing to the rotation, but where it’s going to be in the format completely depends on how well Malamar decks perform, as both function similarly—except VikaBulu is high-risk/high-reward and Malamar is a smaller risk but high-reward (but Malamar loses some significant cards to the rotation).
Copycat...oh boy, I don’t know. It looks fantastic on paper, but it’s REALLY finicky. It has a high-reward value, but only if you’re in a spot where you’re not pressured to use any other supporter for the turn and you just need items. Against a Zoroark-GX builds, it’s great. I’m not sure how good it is against other builds.
Hala CAN be good, but I haven’t seen or heard of many decks that are actually going to put it to good use. I did see a post either here or Reddit that listed all the Pokémon with cheap GX attacks to get Hala working quickly. There are some good candidates, but the only ones I can think of are Kartana-GX, Turtonator-GX, and Drampa-GX. So you have to center a bit of your deck around getting a quick GX attack to work AND THEN you can use Hala. At which point is just Cynthia +1. Is all that trouble worth one more card?
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I think your assessment on Hala is fair, as there are a lot of GX's attacks which aren't good either. Some others I think may utilize Hala are Reshiram GX as it's first attack accelerates energy to itself, Zygarde which I feel is position well going into post rotation, Raquaza GX as it allows you to discard your hand and draw ten cards for one grass energy and maybe Buzzwole but I definitely see your point.
Yeah I'm not sure Bulu's place in the meta either. I feel it's a solid choice given it loses very little and has no weakness, but may be a worse version of Raquaza GX. Especially if we experience any power creep.
Yeah I'm not sure Bulu's place in the meta either. I feel it's a solid choice given it loses very little and has no weakness, but may be a worse version of Raquaza GX. Especially if we experience any power creep.
Nice! Rayquaza-GX is another good one. The only issue is if an opponent decides to use Judge immediately afterwards. But at least you can Hala at that point.
Not sure about Reshiram having a quick GX unless you Kiawe early on AND have a decent amount of Fire Energy in hand.
For Bulu. Dedicated sorts will be able to figure out if Bulu or Rayquaza is the better fit.
Bulu is good for hitting a wide variety of numbers and is a better early game attacker. But Rayquaza-GX has no damage ceiling and is better if you can protect your ‘energy investments’, but isn’t as good an early game attacker as Bulu.
As for Zygarde-GX. I’m really on the fence with this one. On one hand, I see potential. On the other, the meta is going to be very aggro focused and I think that if there’s too much pressure put against it to where it has to use a Supporter other than Bonnie, it falls apart.
I see it as a meme deck similar to Guzzlord-GX, but a bit more ‘dry’ and low-key.
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I don't know how I feel about Tate & Liza personally.
I would 100% rather play Cynthia or go out of my way to Lele for Cynthia, and if I want to switch my Pokemon, I don't want to use my supporter for turn on it. I'll just play Switch, and then play Cynthia, or play Cynthia and hope that I hit a switch or a form of free retreat (Escape Board in 1 retreat cost decks) while drawing an extra card. It's clunkier because it requires you to have or see 2 cards in hand that turn, but I don't really think the option to switch Pokemon makes Tate & Liza substantially better than Shauna ever was. If Tate & Liza gave you the option to pick between two supporter effects (i.e. Giovanni is Shauna or Kukui in one card) and not 1 supporter or 1 item effect, I would see the card in a much brighter light.
I think almost all decks will run the following supporters at minimum,
4 Cynthia
3 Guzma
1 Lillie
1 Steven
Outside of that, it kind of depends on your deck type if you have room to utilize Copycat, Judge, and/or Fan Club. Fan Clubbing can be good if you do something like Fan Club for an Alolan Vulpix who then searches you 2 more Pokemon on top of it (and maybe even 2 more the next turn without using supporter for turn), but if you're running Fan Club just to replace Brigette and fill up your bench with 2 basic GX Pokemon, it's a bit of a stretch.
There are a handful of in-theme supporters like Diantha that I think take higher priority than Copycat or Judge just because of how many windows of play it opens up. Hala is also a thing for early GXing decks as others have mentioned.
I would 100% rather play Cynthia or go out of my way to Lele for Cynthia, and if I want to switch my Pokemon, I don't want to use my supporter for turn on it. I'll just play Switch, and then play Cynthia, or play Cynthia and hope that I hit a switch or a form of free retreat (Escape Board in 1 retreat cost decks) while drawing an extra card. It's clunkier because it requires you to have or see 2 cards in hand that turn, but I don't really think the option to switch Pokemon makes Tate & Liza substantially better than Shauna ever was. If Tate & Liza gave you the option to pick between two supporter effects (i.e. Giovanni is Shauna or Kukui in one card) and not 1 supporter or 1 item effect, I would see the card in a much brighter light.
I think almost all decks will run the following supporters at minimum,
4 Cynthia
3 Guzma
1 Lillie
1 Steven
Outside of that, it kind of depends on your deck type if you have room to utilize Copycat, Judge, and/or Fan Club. Fan Clubbing can be good if you do something like Fan Club for an Alolan Vulpix who then searches you 2 more Pokemon on top of it (and maybe even 2 more the next turn without using supporter for turn), but if you're running Fan Club just to replace Brigette and fill up your bench with 2 basic GX Pokemon, it's a bit of a stretch.
There are a handful of in-theme supporters like Diantha that I think take higher priority than Copycat or Judge just because of how many windows of play it opens up. Hala is also a thing for early GXing decks as others have mentioned.
I can see Zoroark running a Wicke. You'll likely draw a bunch of cards. Hala is also decent. If Lycanroc sees any amount of play after rotation, an early game Dangerous Rogue can set you up. It's also one of the better 2 shot cards, since the math works out for it to KO stuff that's been chipped into.
Staples -
Cynthia - 4 of every deck
Guzma - 3 or 4 every deck
Steven - 1 of every deck except Kiawe decks, this is basically the ideal t1 play for most non-Kiawe decks.
Copycat - At least 1 in every deck, higher counts in metas with higher Zoroark presence
Judge - Most decks will want to run one or two of them, it's no N but you still need a way to disrupt your opponent's hand due to cards like Sylveon and Steven
Lillie - Will see play as the ideal t1 supporter in some decks, decks with heavy discard from hand effects such as Malamar might take more copies
Tate and Liza - I don't know how many people will run but I suspect this card will see a good deal of use
Situational
Hala - Will see use in decks that feature low cost GX moves on basics like Drampa/Garb, where you can easily do a t1 second move big wheel for 10 cards.
Volkner - Will replace Skyla in decks that use it, it's slightly worse than Skyla in most decks since you can't do the shitty but sometimes necessary play of Skyla for a supporter, but 9 times out of 10 you're going to pick an item with Skyla anyways.
Acerola - Same use as now, good in certain decks against 2HKO decks
Crasher Wake - Will see play in water/aqua patch decks.
Lusamine - Will see play as a one of in some stadium dependent decks, and in disruption/stall
Plumeria - Without TFG this is the only reliable basic energy removal, control feels extremely weak post rotation but this card will feature in it
Lisia - Buzzwole will run 1 of them
Diantha - Gardevoir will run 1 of them
Kiawe - Same use as right now
Cynthia - 4 of every deck
Guzma - 3 or 4 every deck
Steven - 1 of every deck except Kiawe decks, this is basically the ideal t1 play for most non-Kiawe decks.
Copycat - At least 1 in every deck, higher counts in metas with higher Zoroark presence
Judge - Most decks will want to run one or two of them, it's no N but you still need a way to disrupt your opponent's hand due to cards like Sylveon and Steven
Lillie - Will see play as the ideal t1 supporter in some decks, decks with heavy discard from hand effects such as Malamar might take more copies
Tate and Liza - I don't know how many people will run but I suspect this card will see a good deal of use
Situational
Hala - Will see use in decks that feature low cost GX moves on basics like Drampa/Garb, where you can easily do a t1 second move big wheel for 10 cards.
Volkner - Will replace Skyla in decks that use it, it's slightly worse than Skyla in most decks since you can't do the shitty but sometimes necessary play of Skyla for a supporter, but 9 times out of 10 you're going to pick an item with Skyla anyways.
Acerola - Same use as now, good in certain decks against 2HKO decks
Crasher Wake - Will see play in water/aqua patch decks.
Lusamine - Will see play as a one of in some stadium dependent decks, and in disruption/stall
Plumeria - Without TFG this is the only reliable basic energy removal, control feels extremely weak post rotation but this card will feature in it
Lisia - Buzzwole will run 1 of them
Diantha - Gardevoir will run 1 of them
Kiawe - Same use as right now
I've been testing some post rotation stuff in my Psychic Beast Box deck (which I'll post soon in the Garage). I'm using Ultra Space and Mysterious Treasure for my "Brigette" (though it doesn't go to Bench, better than PFC), Judge in replace of N and Sophocles for Sycamore. It's been good so far
Just wanted to comment on the bolded ones in particular.
I don't think that increased Zoroark GX play would dictate increased Copycat play. For the most part, I believe people use Trade to reach some cards that makes the rest of their hand playable, and just in general hoping to access cards they can use, so I don't think people will be using Trade and just sitting on their hand unless they brick hard.
I think 1 copy of Copycat is the right choice in most decks to give you options if you are going 2nd and your opponent opens with a turn 1 Steven that makes their hand 7+ cards large, since they actually won't be able to play the cards they get from Steven unlike the cards they get from Zoroark GX. Or if they use Lillie and brick...somehow.
To the same effect, with N rotating, we should see increased play in Alolan Vulplix and Sylveon GX. Beacon and Magical Ribbon will be far more valuable with less hand disruption. At the same time, those attacks lead to you having 2 to 3 extra cards in hand at the end of turn which makes Copycat a decent response to match your opponent's hand size. This also applies to Steven, and I think one of the most opportune times to use Copycat is after someone does a turn 1 Steven and their hand is (hopefully) massive.
I personally don't see Copycat ever going beyond a 2 count, because beyond T1 Steven and Lillie, there aren't really opportunities where you can force your opponent to have a healthy hand size. I feel like in order to compesate for Judge and Copycat, people would just learn to play more efficiently and make sure to end their turn with 4-5 cards in hand, not 6+.
On the contrary, I think Diantha should be a fixed 2 count in Gardevoir GX. With the loss of Super Rod, Gardy lost any item-based recovery for energy. We could play an energy recycler and then search the energy back out with Sylveon GX but...that's slow.
Also, since we no longer have 4 N and 4 Sycamore to lean on, the 4 Cynthia that we have are very valuable. Using Diantha to recycle a Cynthia in a pinch and something else can be a very effective play, and having 2 Diantha is a safe number you can play without worrying about losing the game before you can play a 3rd copy (3 GX kills).
Diantha doesn't have much value right now because Gallade is still in the format and becomes an option that reduces your fairy targets, and we have plenty of other good supporters that take priority right now, but post-rotation, Gardevoir GX and Sylveon GX's Plea GX will be the main force of Gardy's threats, and if people go after, say, a Zoroark GX you have on your bench and ignore the Gardy's, you can just punish them for ignoring your main threat.
Also, since set up phase is generally going to be a bit slower post rotation, it gives you more chances to punish people who are going after your Ralts & Kirlia. Lastly, running Zoroark GX with it means that you can discard with less concern knowing that you have 2 copies of Diantha to regrab any unfortuante discards.
Just my opinions.
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So, we're actually discussing the 2018-2019 Standard Format and not "2019-On", right? Yeah, it sounds like nitpicking to you, but one of us sometimes needs to dig deep for historical info. It is not improbable that I'll be Googling for information about the Pokémon TCG in 2019 and get a hit for this thread... only to be sorely disappointed. 
I made a similar comment elsewhere, but Magcargo could really shake up our predictions. If it only ever matters to one or two decks, then it won't change things unless those are the top decks. If the hype is real, then it will change the vast majority of decks, as they just need to focus on compatible draw to combo with Smooth Over. We see a "quality over quantity" approach as you don't draw big for a Double Colorless Energy, you Smooth Over it to the top of your deck and then use an Acro Bike or Trade In to access it.
Otherwise, I like the ideas I am seeing. One I'd like to tweak is
I am thinking Ultra Ball (we aren't losing it) factors in here. Without it, why not run Pokémon March? You won't think your deck by as many spots but you'll save your Item-based Pokémon search for later, or won't need as many slots in your deck. Coming-into-play Abilities can still trigger as well, and you won't run afoul of anti-Item effects (if those are still relevant). With Ultra Ball - which you're likely running anyway - sure you'll need up to four cards of discard fodder but Apricot Maker can snag coming-into-play effects and Evolutions.
I made a similar comment elsewhere, but Magcargo could really shake up our predictions. If it only ever matters to one or two decks, then it won't change things unless those are the top decks. If the hype is real, then it will change the vast majority of decks, as they just need to focus on compatible draw to combo with Smooth Over. We see a "quality over quantity" approach as you don't draw big for a Double Colorless Energy, you Smooth Over it to the top of your deck and then use an Acro Bike or Trade In to access it.
Otherwise, I like the ideas I am seeing. One I'd like to tweak is
I am thinking Ultra Ball (we aren't losing it) factors in here. Without it, why not run Pokémon March? You won't think your deck by as many spots but you'll save your Item-based Pokémon search for later, or won't need as many slots in your deck. Coming-into-play Abilities can still trigger as well, and you won't run afoul of anti-Item effects (if those are still relevant). With Ultra Ball - which you're likely running anyway - sure you'll need up to four cards of discard fodder but Apricot Maker can snag coming-into-play effects and Evolutions.
I was mostly thinking of Zoroark variants for post-rotation - with 4 Nest Balls and 4 Ultra Balls in the deck and T1 Apricorn Maker you have a chance of filling your bench on your first turn if that's what you want to go for. But it can obviously have other uses as well.
As most people already said, 4 Cynthia is going to be a staple, just as PONT used to be in the past. Guzma won't change from 3 to 4 copies, and just some decks may use 2 for space reasons (such as Gardevoir, maybe?).
I'm not that in favor of Lillie being an immediate substitute, but it has its merits. We can see a Hala increase as well, as many decks can use their GX attacks in the early game, and probably 1 copy of Drampa on certain decks to use Big Wheel.
Steven's Decision is good to use on the 1st turn if you're a setup deck, as N will rotate. For this reason, I'm inclined to play some Judges too, because there are some decks that can tutor well, using Alolan Vulpix, Metagross (may increase because of Steven's Decision), and others.
Seems pretty much what already had been said, but i wanted to point out Metagross decks that can get a nice boost.
I'm not that in favor of Lillie being an immediate substitute, but it has its merits. We can see a Hala increase as well, as many decks can use their GX attacks in the early game, and probably 1 copy of Drampa on certain decks to use Big Wheel.
Steven's Decision is good to use on the 1st turn if you're a setup deck, as N will rotate. For this reason, I'm inclined to play some Judges too, because there are some decks that can tutor well, using Alolan Vulpix, Metagross (may increase because of Steven's Decision), and others.
Seems pretty much what already had been said, but i wanted to point out Metagross decks that can get a nice boost.
Could you explain why we would be using Wicke?
I feel like there are certain situations where Wicke would be better to play rather than Copycat. Say you have 6 cards in hand and your opponent has like 2, you really wanna copycat and only draw 2 as your supporter. While with Wicke you would draw 5 rather than 2 and still disrupt your opponents next turn.
Wicke is also good in anything that plays Zoroark.