Discussion (2019-On) What Supporters will we Use?

[Merovingian]

I feel like there are certain situations where Wicke would be better to play rather than Copycat. Say you have 6 cards in hand and your opponent has like 2, you really wanna copycat and only draw 2 as your supporter. While with Wicke you would draw 5 rather than 2 and still disrupt your opponents next turn.

This situation only applies if they are holding a less than decent hand and you're holding 7 or more cards. Otherwise, Cynthia is the more optimal play.

In any case, a Wicke that benefits you is just as case dependent as Copycat. If not, more case dependent.

 

[Otaku]

This situation only applies if they are holding a less than decent hand and you're holding 7 or more cards. Otherwise, Cynthia is the more optimal play.

In any case, a Wicke that benefits you is just as case dependent as Copycat. If not, more case dependent.

While they have almost never proven competitive, the "Draw 3" Supporters are not only good for helping people learn the game (no hard decisions, unlike with shuffle-and-draw, discard-and-draw, or conditional-draw), but they provide a solid "baseline" for evaluating draw power. If something is not more beneficial on average than Hau, people would just suck it up and play Hau. Now, I did say "on average". If a situational use is not terribly uncommon, it could still work. If not for Steven's Decision (Steven's Advice?) Lillie would have a good shot at being the first turn Supporter of choice outside of Fire Decks (where Kiawe will likely remain the go-to play).

 

[Mysticvulpix]

Thanks for bringing up Volkner and Copycat. Completely forgot about those.

VikaBulu is going to be in a weird spot post-rotation. It’s the only ‘old’ deck that loses next to nothing to the rotation, but where it’s going to be in the format completely depends on how well Malamar decks perform, as both function similarly—except VikaBulu is high-risk/high-reward and Malamar is a smaller risk but high-reward (but Malamar loses some significant cards to the rotation).

Copycat...oh boy, I don’t know. It looks fantastic on paper, but it’s REALLY finicky. It has a high-reward value, but only if you’re in a spot where you’re not pressured to use any other supporter for the turn and you just need items. Against a Zoroark-GX builds, it’s great. I’m not sure how good it is against other builds.

Hala CAN be good, but I haven’t seen or heard of many decks that are actually going to put it to good use. I did see a post either here or Reddit that listed all the Pokémon with cheap GX attacks to get Hala working quickly. There are some good candidates, but the only ones I can think of are Kartana-GX, Turtonator-GX, and Drampa-GX. So you have to center a bit of your deck around getting a quick GX attack to work AND THEN you can use Hala. At which point is just Cynthia +1. Is all that trouble worth one more card?

Copy cat... well, it’s gonna be interesting. As said, against any zoroark variant it will be great, but things like Malamar, where you try to discard cards from the deck, not the best matchup.

The reason why Stevens decision will be good is that in a format where N is no longer here, it can set up a turn two. Yes, there is Judge, but it just doesn’t have the usefulness N had. Maybe in things like shiftree gx (it’s a thing in japan), there will be play, but other than that not much else.

The funny thing is, while looking in my collection I found my fourth Cynthia and three lilies. I guess I’m almost set for rotation, supporter wise.

 

[PrimePokeDaddy]

With Sycamore gone, I'm interested in Sightseer as a potential inclusion in Malamar decks and other decks where you need to get energy in the discard.

It is less costly than Sycamore because you can pick and choose what to discard and don't have to sacrifice resources, but also way less beneficial on the draw.

I see it as a little better than Sophocles since I think the option to discard what you want is much better than always discarding two, but you always get 4 more with Sophocles regardless of hand size.

However, I think the turn 1 power of Lillie may still be the best choice, even though there is no discard. You can get energy in the discard with Mysterious Treasure and Ultra Ball heavy decks.

 

[Mysticvulpix]

With Sycamore gone, I'm interested in Sightseer as a potential inclusion in Malamar decks and other decks where you need to get energy in the discard.

It is less costly than Sycamore because you can pick and choose what to discard and don't have to sacrifice resources, but also way less beneficial on the draw.

I see it as a little better than Sophocles since I think the option to discard what you want is much better than always discarding two, but you always get 4 more with Sophocles regardless of hand size.

However, I think the turn 1 power of Lillie may still be the best choice, even though there is no discard. You can get energy in the discard with Mysterious Treasure and Ultra Ball heavy decks.

I can see Stevens resolve being a major supporter in metal decks, due to metagross, and possibly in all decks a competitor for the top first turn supporter, as without N in the format, it would be difficult to send away these cards. There fore, it could speed up some decks by getting the right resources. For example: in a garbodor deck you could get: Garbodor garbotoxin, pokemon tool, and then one more card.

 

[Merovingian]

I can see Stevens resolve being a major supporter in metal decks, due to metagross, and possibly in all decks a competitor for the top first turn supporter, as without N in the format, it would be difficult to send away these cards. There fore, it could speed up some decks by getting the right resources. For example: in a garbodor deck you could get: Garbodor garbotoxin, pokemon tool, and then one more card.

Resolve is only good on the first turn AND if you go first. Lillie is a much more versatile choice.

Plus, if you Resolve T1. Opponent will now Lele for Judge.

 

[Otaku]

Resolve is only good on the first turn AND if you go first. Lillie is a much more versatile choice.

Plus, if you Resolve T1. Opponent will now Lele for Judge.

I'm thinking Steven's Resolve is getting a little overhyped (by others), and Lillie is getting very overhyped (by Merovingian).

Lillie isn't versatile, she's unreliable. The first turn she isn't great, she's just "good". The rest of the game she's pretty mediocre unless your typical hand size is zero or one. She's better than Hau if your typical hand size is two or less. It just takes three cards in hand for her to be no better than Hau. Drawing three cards isn't much; got a spare Supporter, a spare Energy card, and an Evolution you cannot yet play? That's three cards of draw off of Lillie unless it is your first turn of the game. She's golden if your deck reliably burns through its hand, but if I had to choose between her and Hau, I'd probably go with Hau.

Steven's Resolve is actually in a similar boat, but instead of decks that are great at burning through their own hand, it is for decks that have the opposite problem; attacking not going to do you much (if any) good? Get the exact two cards you need so you can complete bit combos. Your opponent fetching and using Judge against you is likely a two-edged sword. Imagine if Judge had an additional effect and an additional cost; your turn ends right away, but your opponent doesn't get to use a Supporter next turn. If a player uses Steven's Resolve and his or her opponent uses Judge that is almost what happens! @_@

 

[paintbrushpanda]

Lillie is a very solid turn one supporter for a lot of decks, alongside Fan Club. If you run a deck that can run through a starting hand easily such as say, Vikabulu or Metal Beast Box, Lillie is a good choice. In decks like Zoroark however, you want to run Fan Club since it lets you get benched Pokemon easily. Hau is also very mediocre as it has very limited potential, where as Lillie could get you up to 6 free cards. Steven's Resolve just isn't good due to Judge being a thing, especially since Judge will likely be run as a 1 or 2 of in most decks.

 

[Rezolution]

Yes, this is true for buzzroc decks or any other fighting or water deck as they can use brooklet hill to get basic's out.

 

[Merovingian]

Lillie isn't versatile, she's unreliable. The first turn she isn't great, she's just "good".

She's versatile in the sense that, it doesn't matter if you're going first or second. On your first turn, she gives you an out to 8 cards. That is more versatile than Steven's Resolve where it's only good on T1 and ONLY if you're going first. Beyond that, why would you not be attacking every turn unless you're hoping that an opponent is just not going to use Judge?

The rest of the game she's pretty mediocre unless your typical hand size is zero or one. She's better than Hau if your typical hand size is two or less. It just takes three cards in hand for her to be no better than Hau. Drawing three cards isn't much; got a spare Supporter, a spare Energy card, and an Evolution you cannot yet play? That's three cards of draw off of Lillie unless it is your first turn of the game. She's golden if your deck reliably burns through its hand, but if I had to choose between her and Hau, I'd probably go with Hau.

I haven't seen a lot of decks use more than 1 or 2 Lillie. It's a great opener, and yes, its not as good after T1. That said, it could bail you out of a Judge play.

Steven's Resolve is actually in a similar boat, but instead of decks that are great at burning through their own hand, it is for decks that have the opposite problem; attacking not going to do you much (if any) good? Get the exact two cards you need so you can complete bit combos. Your opponent fetching and using Judge against you is likely a two-edged sword.

Chances are, if you use Steven's Resolve, you're currently not in a good position to defens yourself and you're setting yourself up for next turn.

I use Judge, your 3 cards go away and your hand goes down. I go down to 4 as well, but I'll bet $20 that I'll be sitting in a much better position post-Judge.

And if we are going to split hairs over Hau. Looker is lightyears better if you use Looker's Whistle

 

[Otaku]

Congratulations! Trying to respond to this thread has given me a headache. -_- I used Hau as a "benchmark".

She's golden if your deck reliably burns through its hand, but if I had to choose between her and Hau, I'd probably go with Hau.

This does not mean I run Hau or recommend Hau post-rotation; it means Lillie is only worth considering for a particular kind of deck and if it isn't that particular kind of deck, she's worse than Hau whom no one runs.

 

[Mysticvulpix]

Resolve is only good on the first turn AND if you go first. Lillie is a much more versatile choice.

Plus, if you Resolve T1. Opponent will now Lele for Judge.

The problem is, most people won’t play Judge because it doesn’t have a place in the meta. The thing that made N so popular was that it was versatile, and it stunned your opponents hand if they were ahead, and gave you a fix if you were behind on prizes. Judge doesnt do that. It equals out both hands, which is only efficient if your opponent has more cards than you and more than four in your hand. Plus, it has a high chance that it will knock you down a few cards, as in a metagame where all supporters get you above four cards, a card hurting both players won’t be played to often. The only high possibility is in shiftree gx, and that might not be as good as believed before.

 

[Merovingian]

The problem is, most people won’t play Judge because it doesn’t have a place in the meta. The thing that made N so popular was that it was versatile, and it stunned your opponents hand if they were ahead, and gave you a fix if you were behind on prizes. Judge doesnt do that. It equals out both hands, which is only efficient if your opponent has more cards than you and more than four in your hand. Plus, it has a high chance that it will knock you down a few cards, as in a metagame where all supporters get you above four cards, a card hurting both players won’t be played to often. The only high possibility is in shiftree gx, and that might not be as good as believed before.

Look at Judge more in terms of hand disruption. It’s fantastic to play right before you take a KO to prevent them from (possibly) setting up next turn. Or preventing them from something like Guzma

 

[Mysticvulpix]

Look at Judge more in terms of hand disruption. It’s fantastic to play right before you take a KO to prevent them from (possibly) setting up next turn. Or preventing them from something like Guzma

The thing is, it will probably disrupt you too, possibly creating roadblocks for future moves.

The thing is, it will probably disrupt you too, possibly creating roadblocks for future moves.

Overall, it just doesn’t seem to pull its weight in tough situations like N did, rendering it unvaluable.

 

[AuraJackle]

Overall, it just doesn’t seem to pull its weight in tough situations like N did, rendering it unvaluable.

Did you just respond to yourself

 

[Merovingian]

The thing is, it will probably disrupt you too, possibly creating roadblocks for future moves.

If you are in a position where you can use Judge ANd take a KO, ther s a good chance that you’re going to be ok, tempo wise.

Overall, it just doesn’t seem to pull its weight in tough situations like N did, rendering it unvaluable.

It’s no N, but it is not a card that should be dismissed

 

[Mysticvulpix]

If you are in a position where you can use Judge ANd take a KO, ther s a good chance that you’re going to be ok, tempo wise.


It’s no N, but it is not a card that should be dismissed

I dunno, it just doesn’t seem to have the versatility other cards like it have.

 

[Mysticvulpix]

Did you just respond to yourself

Yes, accidentally

 

[WinterShorts]

Cynthia is a 4-of in every post-rotation deck, no questions asked.
Lillie is gonna see more play, but still only as a 1 or 2 of since it's only really good in the early game when you play her first turn and any point after that there might be moments where you can't burn cards in your hand so you draw only like 3 cards out of her for the turn.
Copycat depends on what people play (at least I believe). It's really good against Zoroark decks but anything else, esspecially Rayquaza, might burn their hands to make for an ineffective Copycat for the turn.
Sightseer (in the next set) will be really nice for decks that want cards in the discard pile or don't want to shuffle back certain cards (basically a neutered Sycamore in my eyes).

 

[The Last Shaymin]

you guys....

here is what I predict:

4 Hau
4 Looker
4 Bill

easy draw

and they are all better than lillie

jk

probably going to be something along the lines of

4 Cynthia
2 Copycat/wicke
2 lillie