Discussion About the rotation of 2018...

[Shfinx]

Unlike other TCGs Pokemon has a TON of interaction with the deck, making it incredibly easy to pull off combo decks without a card like N. Though, I would be very interested in seeing what the meta game would look like without Ilima, Wicke, N or the new Marshadow. I would be incredibly curious to see what kind of crazy combos people could come up with without ANY of those cards. I feel like the meta would be incredible diverse and creative for a few weeks, but some crazy OP deck would spring up that would just dominate the entire game.

Once again, I agree. If they removed all those cards, I would personally usher in the rise to glory of M Tyranitar EX/ Bats. I can dream, at least.
I personally really like the insane amount of consistency that Pokemon offers. I really appreciate how consistent you can make a deck, if you want to. It helps me actually have a shot when I'm still playing Ray/Eels like 4-5 years since it was meta, just because I can make a more consistent list than my opponent.

 

[Shfinx]

They print a new ''discard hand draw 7'' supporter every rotation since the game came out.
Wait for it. It's coming from a meter away.

Unless I'm mistaken, there hasn't been one in every rotation, just the recent ones. There was Professor Oak in Base set, but I'm pretty sure they didn't print one for every rotation. Besides, we're allowed to dream, aren't we?

 

[Otaku]

They print a new ''discard hand draw 7'' supporter every rotation since the game came out.
Wait for it. It's coming from a meter away.

Unless I'm mistaken, there hasn't been one in every rotation, just the recent ones. There was Professor Oak in Base set, but I'm pretty sure they didn't print one for every rotation. Besides, we're allowed to dream, aren't we?

The first Supporter that allowed you to discard your hand and draw seven cards was Professor Juniper, which wasn't officially released until Black & White (April 2011). Base Set debuted January of 1999 but Professor Oak was a "normal Trainer", what we now call an Item, and it still is treated as an Item. Even if you count it, it left Standard play as of the original rotation to a "Modified" format. That was back in 2001. We didn't get Professor Sycamore until XY in February of 2014 but Professor Juniper was not only still legal in Standard at that point but it was re-released in BW: Plasma Blast (August of 2013).

Given the recent history versus the longterm history, I'd say the odds are probably about 50-50. If we do get another one, I hope the-powers-that-be finally wise up, just call it "Professor", then issue an errata for Professor Juniper, Professor Oak, and Professor Sycamore changing their names to Professor. We can then get rid of the sily rule about not mixing Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore in a deck, Unlimited might finally see some shaking up and we can get some awesome promos featuring different Professor characters on various future releases of this hypothetical Professor card, including obscure ones like Professor Willow. They won't need to change the name or come up with a new effect, just new art for an existing card we'll all probably love to buy.

 

[Shfinx]

The first Supporter that allowed you to discard your hand and draw seven cards was Professor Juniper, which wasn't officially released until Black & White (April 2011). Base Set debuted January of 1999 but Professor Oak was a "normal Trainer", what we now call an Item, and it still is treated as an Item. Even if you count it, it left Standard play as of the original rotation to a "Modified" format. That was back in 2001. We didn't get Professor Sycamore until XY in February of 2014 but Professor Juniper was not only still legal in Standard at that point but it was re-released in BW: Plasma Blast (August of 2013).

Given the recent history versus the longterm history, I'd say the odds are probably about 50-50. If we do get another one, I hope the-powers-that-be finally wise up, just call it "Professor", then issue an errata for Professor Juniper, Professor Oak, and Professor Sycamore changing their names to Professor. We can then get rid of the sily rule about not mixing Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore in a deck, Unlimited might finally see some shaking up and we can get some awesome promos featuring different Professor characters on various future releases of this hypothetical Professor card, including obscure ones like Professor Willow. They won't need to change the name or come up with a new effect, just new art for an existing card we'll all probably love to buy.

You literally just said what I was trying to say, but much better. I know about the Professor Oak being an item thing (I do play unlimited, so I need to know all those rulings). I think it would be really cool/smart if they just made the name Professor.

Of course, Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore are good cards and all, but nothing can beat the obviously most OP Professor: Cedric Juniper.

 

[Mr. Rhyperior]

I want it to be Evolutions-On for the sake of it being a throwback set but I'm expecting Sun and Moon on.

Evolutions is a trash set. Every competitive player knows that. It was a troll set in promo boxes

 

[Attix]

Evolutions is a trash set. Every competitive player knows that. It was a troll set in promo boxes

There are actually a few good cards in that set (such as Starmie), but yeah, for the most part its a mediocre nostalgia set. Plus, cutting it means no longer having to account for EXs in card text.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Evolutions is a trash set. Every competitive player knows that. It was a troll set in promo boxes

There are a handful of useful cards there. Not everything needs to be competitive and if you ask me, Evolutions is far from the worst XY set but a nice throwback. If anything, just collect the packs and keep them sealed. That's what I do.

There are actually a few good cards in that set (such as Starmie), but yeah, for the most part its a mediocre nostalgia set. Plus, cutting it means no longer having to account for EXs in card text.

Nostalgia is always good. I also think EX being printed on cards will continue to be a thing until they get rid of the Expanded format.

I 100% agree. All the strong search attacks we have nowadays have always been balanced around the fact that N could just undo it all. Without N, stuff like Metagross and Drampa's GX attacks will probably become a lot stronger, though how much stronger is hard to tell. And of course Sylveon would be disgusting, as you mentioned.

Why is that a bad thing though? They are trading their once per game nuke GX attack for more setup. The nuke based GX attacks are the problem with the game because they don't reward any kind of smart play and reward aggro while N punishes setup. All GX attacks should be easily punished being a finite resource.

Metagross-GX and Drampa-GX shouldn't be punished anymore for their GX attack than Zoroark-GX or Lycanroc-GX.

 

[CaptZero]

I can't wait until Brigette rotates. That card is terrible for this meta IMO. Every opening is either Lele->Brigette or you had a bad start...

 

[SinitsynME]

God, we are going to lose XY... My favourite gen. I think it is impossible to let XY stay in Standard, the format would have been broken for a year. These damn Volcanions are just annoying... But we are going to lose N, Sycamore and Brigitte, this is what DOES hurt me a lot.
No EXs, just GXs...
Farewell...

 

[Attix]

God, we are going to lose XY... My favourite gen. I think it is impossible to let XY stay in Standard, the format would have been broken for a year. These damn Volcanions are just annoying... But we are going to lose N, Sycamore and Brigitte, this is what DOES hurt me a lot.
No EXs, just GXs...
Farewell...

I've heard rumors that the set after Ultra Force is going to be Unova-themed, so there may yet be hope for an N reprint. But again, just rumors.

I think letting the metagame evolve like this is actually a good thing. As I've said before, I hate complacent gaming, and love seeing new strategies both to use and to keep me on my toes. Don't get me wrong, staples are good, but over-reliance on reprints makes the metagame get stale. And a stale metagame was mostly why I left Yu-Gi-Oh (and tcgs in general) years ago.

 

[WinterShorts]

Unless they do a special thing like keep the sets for the next rotation, which they have done for Diamond and Pearl sets, I think we'll see SM-on for 2019 format. It only makes sense, they rotate 4 sets usually (in this case, BKT, BKP, FTC, and STS. They make keep XY Evolutions in this case but that won't leave much of an impact since we got like 3 cards from it that are competitively relevant) and I don't know why they would leave one set out of XY for the next format. Seems weird to me.

 

[Kapu Riki]

I think an N-like card will come soon. It would be cool if they made a N reprint in the SM era but I kind of hope they don't. I do not want to see Professor Sycamore reprinted though. I think Sophocles is a good substitute to help dump things into the Discard Pile from the hand. Other than that, I do want to see Bridgette reprinted, but errata'd. I think it should get one EX, GX , or Prism Pokémon, or 3 basic Pokémon. Seeing how Pokémon Bank isn't going anywhere and she is the main (and only) star in that game. Haha.

What I would like to see is Expanded reduced to XY-on. I think BW era had its time and it would be nice to see those BW era cards go. (Plus, I don't want to have to buy a Computer Search...)

 

[Ki1738]

Hope steam siege is still part of standard. Don't want to lose special charge, but looking forward to cynthia

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I think an N-like card will come soon. It would be cool if they made a N reprint in the SM era but I kind of hope they don't. I do not want to see Professor Sycamore reprinted though. I think Sophocles is a good substitute to help dump things into the Discard Pile from the hand. Other than that, I do want to see Bridgette reprinted, but errata'd. I think it should get one EX, GX , or Prism Pokémon, or 3 basic Pokémon. Seeing how Pokémon Bank isn't going anywhere and she is the main (and only) star in that game. Haha.

What I would like to see is Expanded reduced to XY-on. I think BW era had its time and it would be nice to see those BW era cards go. (Plus, I don't want to have to buy a Computer Search...)

I think it would be cooler if they reprinted the Ace Spec cards in the style of our current item secret rares in a product like the XY Premium Collection. It would keep the prices in check and more art styles to choose from is never a bad thing.

I also don't get why a few people here want Expanded to rotate. I feel the format is already naturally rotating as more cards are added to it. I can't think of any pokemon from the black/white era that aren't just niche picks or cool-one-ofs-but-not-major-players type cards (honestly, when was the last time you saw a Keldeo EX?) (edit: oh and exeggcute but again, not a problem). As for trainers you have the Ace Specs, Colress, Ghetsis, and Laserbank. Prices aside Ace Specs aren't broken and there are enough of them that you can pick which one you want pretty easily. Some even loose relevance as new cards are added to the meta (Life Dew vs Field Blower). Colress is freaking sweet and an amazing and fun card. Ghetsis can be a pain but if you can construct your deck to lessen the impact of item lock decks you can lessen being hit by Ghetsis. Lastly Laserbank is a player but again, not a broken one. With Guzma, getting out of status has never been easier. As for the "they have to watch how they design cards for fear of broken unforeseen combos" that's why tcgs have a ban list. Expanded's ban list happens to be three cards which is very impressive compared to pretty much all tcgs. Adding one or two per year isn't unquestionable and it doesn't look like they need to do that.

My only gripe with how Expanded is being handled is that the company hasn't made it clear whether they want to keep it like a "modern" non-rotating format or not. I wish they would as no one knows what to expect of it. I'd hate to buy a Computer Search and have it rotate suddenly and for no reason this year.

 

[I like pokemon]

What about the promo volcanion ex (answer to the first post)

 

[CrownAxe]

What about the promo volcanion ex (answer to the first post)

It came out before EVO so isn't going to dodge rotation as a result

 

[Attix]

I think it would be cooler if they reprinted the Ace Spec cards in the style of our current item secret rares in a product like the XY Premium Collection. It would keep the prices in check and more art styles to choose from is never a bad thing.

I also don't get why a few people here want Expanded to rotate. I feel the format is already naturally rotating as more cards are added to it. I can't think of any pokemon from the black/white era that aren't just niche picks or cool-one-ofs-but-not-major-players type cards (honestly, when was the last time you saw a Keldeo EX?) (edit: oh and exeggcute but again, not a problem). As for trainers you have the Ace Specs, Colress, Ghetsis, and Laserbank. Prices aside Ace Specs aren't broken and there are enough of them that you can pick which one you want pretty easily. Some even loose relevance as new cards are added to the meta (Life Dew vs Field Blower). Colress is freaking sweet and an amazing and fun card. Ghetsis can be a pain but if you can construct your deck to lessen the impact of item lock decks you can lessen being hit by Ghetsis. Lastly Laserbank is a player but again, not a broken one. With Guzma, getting out of status has never been easier. As for the "they have to watch how they design cards for fear of broken unforeseen combos" that's why tcgs have a ban list. Expanded's ban list happens to be three cards which is very impressive compared to pretty much all tcgs. Adding one or two per year isn't unquestionable and it doesn't look like they need to do that.

My only gripe with how Expanded is being handled is that the company hasn't made it clear whether they want to keep it like a "modern" non-rotating format or not. I wish they would as no one knows what to expect of it. I'd hate to buy a Computer Search and have it rotate suddenly and for no reason this year.

I've played against Expanded decks and I've never really seen cards going back further than the Plasma sets. I guess cooler stuff just gets added all the time, which makes sense from a business standpoint; why print a new set if it has nothing to pull players from what they know?

 

[Otaku]

Prices aside Ace Specs aren't broken and there are enough of them that you can pick which one you want pretty easily. Some even loose relevance as new cards are added to the meta (Life Dew vs Field Blower). Colress is freaking sweet and an amazing and fun card. Ghetsis can be a pain but if you can construct your deck to lessen the impact of item lock decks you can lessen being hit by Ghetsis.

I could quote most of what you said, but the short version is your definition of "not broken" is very different from my own. I came to the conclusion long ago that

• The optimum format is one where no one Type or Stage (let alone specific Pokémon) is significantly better than the rest. This is because every Pokémon is someone's favorite, and most of us are fine having more options instead of less, so there is no harm and only benefit from diversifying the competitive card pool.
• When fundamental mechanics start malfunctioning, that is almost a guarantee that something is "breaking" the format.
• Not all broken cards are equal. Some can be "more broken" than others.
  
• A card can be broken and not even see play, whether because the player base just hasn't caught on to it or because something else is "more broken" and such that you have to choose between running one or the other.
• Broken cards don't automatically make the game unplayable or unenjoyable; often they will simply create a clear divide between the competitive card pool (the metagame) and the non-competitive card pool (the filler). A "heightened balance" can exist between very powerful cards, even if they wreck most everything else.

Sorry for the "lecture", but I wanted you to know from where I was coming. One way you can tell something was wrong with the Ace Spec mechanic is that not only was it abandoned, but it has just been replaced. The [Prism Star] mechanic doesn't correct some of the unfortunate aspects of the Ace Spec card, but it fixes one; unless (until?) they release a card that can reclaim stuff from the Lost Zone, you cannot recycle [Prism Star] cards the way you can an Ace Spec.

Why is recycling, or even searching out, an Ace Spec a problem? Natural TecH cards work the way they do because the card isn't intended to be extra powerful due to being restricted to one per deck. Instead, it just ends up that running a copy is more effective than running more, at least in that particular situation. The Ace Spec and [Prism Star] cards seem to be extra potent because they are singles, so anything that reduces the drawbacks of being a singleton threatens the balance of the cards in question...

...and even if there were no search or recycling effects that could work on the cards, now you've just made a powerful play all about the luck of the draw. Yes, as a TCG, Pokémon will always have the luck of the draw (barring a dramatic altering of the rules, at least), but there is a difference between having one draw at the start of your turn from a sufficiently randomized deck and having a powerful class of cards designed to be lucky draws and power plays (at the same time).

Which finally brings us to why some of us are wanting Expanded to rotate; the bigger the card pool, the more opportunities for broken combos. Yes, even among what seems like filler. It just seems safer to let things rotate; it won't make a difference to the current banlist, but 10 years from now it should help a future one (when the SM-series is old news and it is finally time to give the XY-series the axe). It also helps with game design in general; sometimes the older stuff complicates the release of new stuff not by making things broken... just confusing. Imagine if the powers-that-be finally realized, instead of a complicated "Baby" mechanic, it was just best to periodically start making the lowest Stage the new Basic of the line, the former Basic into a Stage 1, and (if present) the former Stage 1 into a Stage 2. Well, I imagine it, and while it would be a bit odd at first, I'm pretty sure I'm down with it.

 

[Gameguard]

Just let the past be gone. Xy is gonna be fully gone from standard soon. But be replaced by the next best thing

 

[AFEX]

100% will be SUM-on. They rotate in blocks. When they went to BCR-on, they lost all the Plasma sets. Then, they lost all the BW sets and went to XY-on. Afterwards, they rotated to PRC-on, AKA they rotated all the sets without Ancient Trait Pokèmon. Then, they lost all the Ancient Trait Pokèmon and went to BKT-on. The next step is obviously rotating all the BREAKs, EXs, and Megas and going to SUM-on.

Then why the heck did we have a tiny A rotation, last rotation?
They only rotated fricking PC, RS, and AO? Now it's gonna be SM on?
We would be losing 2 extra sets? That's bullcrap. Definitely not investing in Lele now.

what the actual heck?