Discussion Anti-Meta Serperior

I don't like the idea of Forry as much to be honest. Forry itself can't be searched out with Level Ball, nor can it be recovered with Revitalizer. It does kinda do the same thing in providing an extra damage counter, but it only does it once. I also find that both deck and bench space are at a premium with this deck, so I don't see how you would include more than a 1-1 line at best... and if you're only gonna have a 1-1 line you're better off with Ariados since it can activate on stuff after you drop it.

Of course, Forry can activate on Grass type enemies too, but I don't see that being much of a problem since the numbers work out nicely on most . The only notable number you miss is 130 with a banded Coil on Vileplume, but you can just Slashing Strike that anyhow, and good luck getting your Band out with Vileplume in play!

... well, I GUESS you miss the KO on Vespiquen without Muscle Band, but that seems pretty minor to me given how you kinda lose to Vespiplume anyhow. I can't see you getting all set up with a T1 item lock on you...
 
The one good thing about Forretress is that if you are running scoops/Az/Devo spray (which you are) and FoGP (which you are), then you can now hit multiple targets multiple times in a row. Picking off a joltik on the bench with three of the same Forretress is not out of the question.
 
That is an interesting point. Though idk if I wanna use my spray/scoop up on 10 damage when it could be 1 turn of paralysis. Which translates to a coil and poison.

Though fortress can wreck nightmarch in its own deck. Now that devo spray is back. Hitting 60 or even the 110 on shaymin doesn't seem too impossible on ur first turn.

Anyway, I just think that fortress is better off in its own deck. Where it doesn't have to share it's resources with a stage 2.
 
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I must have built my deck slightly wrong or something then, cause I have zero space for Devo Sprays :eek:. Heck, I was trying to fit a fourth Muscle Band in and even that's impossible for me! But it still flows incredibly well, so... eh? Maybe it's not really needed, just a nice luxury?

I mean, Devo Spray may not even factor into your plans for the turn depending on the coin flips. If you flip Heads on Servine's ability, you don't need to Devo Spray it anymore... so that then becomes a dead card that clogs up your hand, and even potentially stops you from wanting to evolve up to Serperior since then Devo Spray is even more useless. Maybe I'm missing something with it? It just feels like it's a really weird card with this particular ability.
 
I don't have any devo sprays either. But I have 4 scoop ups and 1 Az.
Devo spray is good in that you can reuse the ability. Giving you 4 more potential turns of paralysis. It's basically the same use as scoop ups, but it lacks the flip but requires you to keep servine on ur bench rather than serperior.
 
I'd be curious to see some builds actually. I've been going devo spray over scoop up because it's guaranteed for one, and you're not reliant of FoGP being in play to utilise. Of course you can't lay it back on the same Snivy without FoGP, but if you have a few on the bench it doesn't matter you can hop between.

Let me see here, this is me trying out Forretress but I reckon I'll go back to Miltank again soon for the lack of fire weakness. My previous build had +2 Miltank, +1 Serperior, +1 Muscle band, in place of the 2-2 line of Pineco.


Pokemon
4-4-3 Serperior (the 3 is for the room for a 2-2 Forretress line, Revitalizer recycles anyway)
2-2 Forretress
2 Shaymin-EX

Draw Support
2 Skyla
1 Sycamore / 1 N / 1 Birch (these seem like low counts, but honestly Skyla and Teammates are far more important, even fanclub can get you set for one Snivy & a Shaymin draw)
1 Fan Club
1 Teammates (so good in this deck)

Other Support
1 Lysandre / 1 Xerosic / 1 Hex (these are just meta musts for every deck, would be 2 Lysandre but space)
1 AZ (when Devo ain't doing it's job, or recycling Shaymin since no DCE)

Draw Engine
3 Battle Compressor
4 FoGP
4 Revitalizer
4 VS Seeker (all high counts, need to hit that turn one burst for momentum)
3 Level Ball
1 Ultra Ball (level ball > ultra ball for a change)

Other
3 Devolution Spray
2 Muscle Band
8 Grass Energy
 
Well, since it furthers the discussion anyhow, let's share what I've set up at the moment:

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

Pokémon - 16

2 Miltank FLF 83
2 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
4 Snivy FAC 5
3 Servine FAC 6
3 Serperior FAC 7
1 Spinarak AOR 5
1 Ariados AOR 6

Trainer Cards - 38

1 Pokémon Fan Club FAC 107
1 Super Rod DRV 20
2 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
1 Lysandre FLF 90
1 Skyla BKP 122
1 Professor's Letter BKT 146
4 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
4 Forest of Giant Plants AOR 74
1 Level Ball AOR 76
4 Revitalizer GEN 70
2 N FAC 105
1 AZ PHF 91
4 Ultra Ball FAC 113
4 Professor Sycamore XY 122
3 Muscle Band XY 121
4 VS Seeker PHF 109

Energy - 6

6 Grass Energy BLW 105

Total Cards: - 60

****** Deck List Generated by Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******


Time to justify my choices, woo! Wall of text incoming!

4-3-3 Serperior - 3 Servine seems a little low perhaps, but this deck focuses very heavily on the Battle Compressor/Revitalizer combo so I never found it to be too few. I will probably test a 4th one over a Miltank though, cause that ability IS super dirty. 3 Serperior is the right amount to use since as stated above you get them back anyhow.

1-1 Ariados - Ariados is mostly to hit the 130 mark with Coil, or to hit 110 with an unboosted Slashing Strike + Band. It's not mandatory though, so 1-1 is all you need.

4/1 Ultra/Level Ball - Honestly I need to test alternating counts, but my logic behind this was that I play pretty much as many mons that can't be searched by Level Ball as by Ultra Ball, and I want to draw more cards T1. I can recover grass types that I discard, and I really need to hit FoGP on the first turn so I want to be using a Shaymin along the way.

4 Battle Compressor - The 4th one is mostly for consistency. the more mons I can dump out of my deck T1, the more other cards I can draw. Plus it helps dump Skyla/Fan Club in the discard.

2 Trainer's Mail - Mostly to try and get Battle Compressor T1, but can also occasionally snatch other goodies like Fan Club and FoGP, which this deck cannot really function without on T1.

4 Sycamore/2 N - This is mostly because I want to be drawing as many cards as possible within the first couple of turns. My goal is to get 2 Serperior up at least within the first 2 turns of the game, preferably with at least 1 Muscle Band, so I need to draw a lot to achieve that. Plus I only have 6 energy, so it can be tricky to draw into them sometimes. N outclasses Birch at every stage of the game imo, so I'm not playing him anymore.

1 Skyla/0 Teammates - I haven't yet had the time to test Teammates, but I can see the appeal in this deck and it's something I may try over a Sycamore soon. 1 Skyla is imo sufficient, as you don't really want to be playing it on the first turn and I find it to generally be too slow in a Stage 2 deck not running Rare Candy. I keep it around for when I need to snatch up FoGP though.

1 Fan Club/0 Bridgette - Honestly Bridgette is probably the better option for this deck... EXCEPT that it can't get Shaymin. That fact alone is the sole reason to use Fan Club for me. However, I should probably test Bridgette out sometime, since I do run lots of Sycamore and N for drawing beyond Skyla.

0 Xerosic/Hex Maniac - Honestly I just can't justify these cards most of the time in any deck. They're incredible, and tbh I kinda want them, but they absolutely destroy my consistency to the point where I just can't get going in more matches than I care to admit. This is mostly just a personal thing, because I am typically very unlucky with TCGO card draws (4 VS seeker's in my opening hand, woo!), but I just can't work with them enough.

1 Lysandre/1 AZ - 1 Lysandre is kinda ok. Would be nice to have 2 for Shaymin sniping, but oh well. AZ is kinda my only way to reuse Servine's ability, which is maybe a bit of a problem... but I don't have space for Devo Sprays so this will have to do. AZ's generically useful for picking up Shaymin too, hence I have that over a single spray.

1 Professor's Letter/1 Super Rod/6 Grass Energy - 6 Energy is low in theory, but with every attacker being a 1-energy attacker having many more than this typically clogs my deck up. Super Rod is pretty good for recovering spent Miltank/Shaymin as well as these energy if you have to Sycamore a couple at the start of the game, as well as getting some Snivy pieces back when you run low on Revitalisers. Professor's Letter over a 7th energy makes a lot of sense with Skyla and Battle Compressor.


Overall this deck runs super smoothly, but I don't play that many games so I haven't really tested this all that much against actual decks. I guess the main concern with this compared to what you guys seem to be playing is that I can't reuse Servine very much, but as far as streaming attackers go I'm golden.
 
Super interested in this thread...

Been playing Serperior myself to a lot of success...seems like it has a pretty strong place in the current meta.
So will be very interested to see where to goes, and figure out what's optimal..

Just for reference, my current list...It's pretty basic...but a good shell to work from for me..
I haven't experimented with Revitalizer or Battle Comp yet..so, if others could let me know how that's working out for them, that would be cool.

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

Pokémon - 18

2 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
1 Pineco FLF 4
4 Snivy FAC 5
4 Servine FAC 6
4 Serperior FAC 7
1 Spinarak AOR 5
1 Ariados AOR 6
1 Forretress FLF 60

Trainer Cards - 34

4 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
4 Ultra Ball DEX 102
1 Super Rod BKT 149
2 Lysandre AOR 78
3 Super Scoop Up FFI 100
3 Professor Sycamore BKP 107
1 Teammates PRC 141
4 Forest of Giant Plants AOR 74
2 Level Ball AOR 76
2 N NVI 101
1 AZ PHF 91
1 Devolution Spray FAC 95
2 Muscle Band XY 121
1 Professor Sycamore PHF 101
3 VS Seeker PHF 109

Energy - 8

8 Grass Energy XYEnergy 5

Total Cards: - 60

****** Deck List Generated by Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

Just a few notes on card choices..
It's already been discussed..Forretress vs Ariados..

They both have pro's and cons...Forretress can hit Vespiquen, pretty relevant, can hit Shaymin's on bench to bring out with Lysandre...So Muscle Band will hit for lethal.

Can't be level ball searched, and is harder to retreat. Potentially less overall damage.

So the split? Sure..trying it out, why not..seems like a good compromise.

1 Devolution Spray...Why not? It's essentially the same card as Super Scoop Up, we're just adding a small amount of diversity, as it's applications can matter. It's 100% Reliable.

Cards I'm interested in testing are ofc...Revitalizer and a Battle Comp Tutor Engine.

Has anyone considered...

Completely cutting Serperior and just playing up to Servine...and playing Sceptile EX instead?? Just an Idea.
 
Serperior is really fun. I think you need at least one shaymin ex to go digging first turn and evolve an attacker. Not so sold on Ariados. It is nice, wish I could find room for virbank to increase that damage further. Shaymin works super well with 4 scoop ups and an AZ. Octillery and float stone is awesome to make active when you scoop a serperior say when you need 80 to 100 damage with slashing strike the following turn. Make octillery active, evolve serperior and attack again. Or attach to serperior and rotate them to slash continually. Going to try lasers as a replacement for ariados, they work on everything meaning you can ko vespiquen one shot with slashing strike. I see how excellent both ariados and forretress are with fogp though. Lasers also have a 25% chance of leaving your opponent asleep on their turn if you missed the strangle flip. Sceptics EX would require ariados however to ensure a 130 damage hit.

Think I am running something really close to the omnipoke version.
4-4-3 serperior
2-2 ariados
1 Shaymin ex

4 juniper
3 N
1 AZ
1 hex
1 computer search
4 scoop up
3 vs seeker
4 forest of giant plants
1 tool scrapper
2 muscle band
1 super rod
1 revitalizer
3 trainer's mail
4 ultra ball
2 level ball
1 professor's letter

8 energy

What about plasma tropius and 3 lasers in place of ariados?
Tropius. . .
 
Thoughts on including 1 or 2 copies of Ancient Origins Virizion as a way to deal with Glaceon-EX? I keep seeing it more and more when I test this deck online and it's almost an auto-lose unless you can Lysandre to knock it out before it gets set up.
 
Scubasage said:
Thoughts on including 1 or 2 copies of Ancient Origins Virizion as a way to deal with Glaceon-EX? I keep seeing it more and more when I test this deck online and it's almost an auto-lose unless you can Lysandre to knock it out before it gets set up.
Click to expand...

A one-of Sceptile-Ex is probably the better route to take, it has synergy with the ariados and is a solid big beater for only two energy. It's a strong card and if you ever really didn't want to bench it say vs Night March you can always Battle Compressor it away or discard it with an ultra ball and so on and so on. I find it to be the best big basic to add to the deck if you really do feel like you need one of those.
 
Ary said:
A one-of Sceptile-Ex is probably the better route to take, it has synergy with the ariados and is a solid big beater for only two energy. It's a strong card and if you ever really didn't want to bench it say vs Night March you can always Battle Compressor it away or discard it with an ultra ball and so on and so on. I find it to be the best big basic to add to the deck if you really do feel like you need one of those.
Click to expand...

Virizion also only needs 2 energy, it doesn't get OHKO'd by Glaceon-EX or anything else those decks typically play (unless it's a teched card in Greninja BREAK), and it only gives up 1 prize.

EDIT: Also I'm running Forretress over Ariados because Forretress works better against Focus Sash and opposing grass decks, as well as not being useless vs Steel Shelter/Chaos Tower.
 
I like the sound of a Sceptile-EX tech actually. And Virizion too. Neither Forretress or Ariados have made a difference often enough to not be looking to replace, and Miltank is just a little shy of great. Great when the inevitable fire deck appears on the client, but that's not really too much of an issue outside Entei decks IRL.
 
Scubasage said:
Virizion also only needs 2 energy, it doesn't get OHKO'd by Glaceon-EX or anything else those decks typically play (unless it's a teched card in Greninja BREAK), and it only gives up 1 prize.

EDIT: Also I'm running Forretress over Ariados because Forretress works better against Focus Sash and opposing grass decks, as well as not being useless vs Steel Shelter/Chaos Tower.
Click to expand...

My problem with Virizion is how it comparatively does a lot less damage than Sceptile-Ex for the same amount of attatchments, and if you're behind on the prize trade it's useless, only doing 40 damage for two [G]. Sceptile's first attack can be used to help stall if the flips don't hit right and hits for 130 (150 with Muscle Band) when Ariados is out. It just synergizes with the whole archetype a lot better i think.
 
I should probably try out Sceptile to be honest, as it does work well with Ariados (which I play a 1-1 line of). Not too keen on Virizion myself, since it really does nothing unless you're losing the game, which for two attachments is really lackluster. Miltank has been my go-to mon because of the single energy cost for respectable damage, plus being neutral towards fire... though that fact probably doesn't matter so much when it "only" has 100 HP. That single energy cost is supremely important for me though, because I only run 6 energy due to Serperior's single energy cost.

Both Ariados and Forretress work identically well against Focus Sash in my experience. Chaos Tower isn't played alongside Fighting-types cause they really want their stadium out, so Poison kills them after Sash procs anyhow. I've actually never seen anyone running Chaos Tower, and every Steel deck I've fought has used Reverse Valley over Steel Shelter. Maybe that's a mistake on their part though? Being useful against Grass decks is probably good though, but does that extra counter ever make the difference in your matches? I'm struggling to see where it truly matters on Grass-types... banded Slashing Strike on non-belted Sceptile maybe?
 
Forretress works better against Focus Sash because it can disable multiple of them at once, rather than having to do each one one at a time and therefore being weak to Hex Maniac disrupting you at a key point. Steel decks should be using a split between Steel Shelter and Reverse Valley. As for Chaos Tower, it's not necessarily being run by anything but there are some decks that don't need a stadium and might run it for versatility's sake and to disrupt opposing stadiums. As for Grass decks, they aren't too common, but Vespiquen makes that 1 counter matter a lot. Vespiquen has 90 HP so you need to either already have coiled or have a Muscle Band to OHKO, and Ariados doesn't help. Forretress, however, lets Serperior OHKO Vespiquen without a Band or a Coil.

It's true that Miltank is probably better in general but it needs a Band to 2HKO Glaceon, whereas Virizion, with only 2 prizes down, 2HKOs Glaceon, by doing 100 per hit. A second Glaceon would probably spell a lot of trouble though...

I don't think there's any viable Steel types we could splash in, so maybe running Miltank and maximum copies of Muscle Band are necessary to properly deal with Glaceon. Hmm. I'll have to test that out.
 
Forretress helps more in the worst matchups I think.

It's a big bonus in the NM matchup as it can be chained to snipe a joltik and can ohko pumpkaboo in a pinch (this has come up enough for me to not be trivial.) Ariados just doesn't provide that kind of benefit and scoop ups are pretty free in that matchup as the paralyzes generally aren't really a factor beyond turn one.
In testing with forretress I'm 50/50 with NM (slightly ahead if they run mew, but I think people will quickly find that mew hurts consistently.

The biggest benefit Serperior has over NM is it can playout on the bench and is less susceptable to N disruption. If you compressor a xerosic into the discard it creates a dilemma of playing out energies before hand or not plus N helps break the streaming of puzzle/teammates.

Forretress also helps in the worst matchup for the deck which is VV in which Ariados is near useless. I lost 8 straight games in testing with ariados version to VV and this prompted my switch to forretress. With Forretress it's still a bad matchup but it's capable of pulling out a few wins here and there (about 65/35.)

Greninja is highly favorable. Get out a snake and chain hex for the win.

Toad is favorable due to the weakness to grass and the deck can perform under item lock moderately well as long as you have stadium up and paralyzes. Ariados or forretress doesn't swing the matchup really either way.

Trev is moderately unfavorable and really the only matchup I find myself really wishing for ariados over forretress.

Yveltai is favorable due to low energy use and favorable prize exchange. Forretress or ariados doesn't really matter.

Ray/Manectric/other big EX decks are favorable due to paralyze/favorable exchange.

Glaceon. I haven't ran into many and the combo of lysandre/paralyze can break you out of the lock. If I saw more I'd probably go with verizion for the counter as it's not worthless in the other matchups. If you go with ariados then I can see sceptile ex but running that often negates one of your best advantages which is prize exchange advantage Shaymins already do this enough. Not a fan of Miltank as it requires you to run more as you cant revitalizer it.

Fire. Avoid it. Shouldn't see too much as it's not really that great of deck overall.
 
Working a good list right now. Ariados and sceptilet ex very good.
4 4 3 serperior
2 2 ariados
1 scep tile ex
1 shaymin ex
8 leaf energy
3 N
3 juniper
1 hex
1 AZ
1 lysandre
4 forest
3 trainer's mail
4 super scoop
2 level ball
4 ultra ball
3 vs seeker
1 Co Peter search
2 muscle band
1 professor's letter
1 super rod
1 tool scrapper
 
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