Discussion Anyone Else Notice How Corrupt the Metagame is Right Now?

There is something people often forget about is unlike Mewtwo EX, Shaymin EX has alternative options to use, which could be much better for the deck. I believe octillery is about 11 bucks (I expect Otaku to yell at me for not checking), which is a forth the price of a non full art shaymin EX and IMO has more utility than Shaymin EX but to each their own, right?

Yes Shaymin EX is stupidly expensive but there isn't a case where you have a shaymin or you dont, unlike Mewtwo EX from NDX, where you had to see it. I think a card like shaymin EX is healthy for the game because you do have other options.
 
The meta game is really pretty diverse at the moment, there are about six decks that could have a chance at my nationals (UK) next weekend, four real contenders, two outside shots. I would imagine we will see 4-6 deck types in top 8 cut. That is a diverse metagame. There have been plenty of times in this and over TCGs where only two or one deck was viable. 3-4 is considered healthy by most.

As for Shaymin, to start in yu-gi-oh or MTG standard formats you are looking at more than $300 for a tier 1 or 2 deck. For pokemon you can buy 4 sycamore, 2 N, 4 Battle compressors, 4 VS seekers, 4 Trainer's mail, 4 Ultraball, 1 hex, 2 lysander, 1 xerosic and most importantly 3 Shaymin EX for under $200. This core will allow you to build any other deck in the meta for less than $70.

Whereas if you were to spend $270-$300 for MTG or Yu-gi-oh or (especially) Vanguard then you would be locked into that deck choice and have to spend another $300 if you wanted to change. Where as in pokemon you have the most expensive core of the "best" deck being the same core as in all other decks.

And if you want to play greninja which is probably one of the best two decks in format at the moment (UK meta) then you don't need the $150 for shaymin. You can probably do that deck for about $100-120 from scratch. Maybe less.

All trading card games have strong or slightly OP stuff, and t1 lock decks have and will always be the most broken thing available in any tcg. T1 locks shouldn't exist. Vile plume and Trevenant are too good for a game with no way to counter your opponents moves (like traps in yugioh or counter spells in mtg).

But overall pokemon is the cheapest and most accessible, and also the most diverse TCG around at the moment.

If you want to play competitively just man up and buy three shaymin. After that it's a very cheap hobby.

You don't even need the 3 Skymin-EX (my pet name for Roaring Skies Shaymin-EX), either. Most decks can skate by with only 2 of them.
 
About Shaymin...if you play casually, just proxy them in if you can't afford them or don't want to play.

If you want to play competitively, I think you have to be willing to spend money, update your decks, or make compromises on what you like vs what's effective at the moment. Especially with a game whose meta changes as often as Pokemon's does.

Also, be glad you're not playing Yugioh...
 
The answer to Shaymin price/demand and availability is restrict it to 1 in a deck...a lot of people would probably unload their extras dropping it to 30-35 price point and decks that require more than 1 for consistency become much more balanced in the overall meta. I have bought the crap out of 3 booster blisters trying to get my hand on one since I only started playing recently with my son. could not find a box anywhere and my son FINALLY pulled one out of our second elite trainer kit from roaring skies.

the other problem is if you need 2 full play sets of some cards (VS, Compressors, Puzzles, etc.) it makes 4-6 Shaymin-EX adding about $300 to base cost out of reach; not even thinking about $400-$450 for 2 full play sets.
 
You don't even need the 3 Skymin-EX (my pet name for Roaring Skies Shaymin-EX), either. Most decks can skate by with only 2 of them.

Well out of my top five meta decks two use 3 or 4 Shaymin EX the other three decks use 2. My post was what you needed as a base to make any of the main decks, three is enough. Two sufficient for most decks.

The answer to Shaymin price/demand and availability is restrict it to 1 in a deck...a lot of people would probably unload their extras dropping it to 30-35 price point and decks that require more than 1 for consistency become much more balanced in the overall meta. I have bought the crap out of 3 booster blisters trying to get my hand on one since I only started playing recently with my son. could not find a box anywhere and my son FINALLY pulled one out of our second elite trainer kit from roaring skies.

the other problem is if you need 2 full play sets of some cards (VS, Compressors, Puzzles, etc.) it makes 4-6 Shaymin-EX adding about $300 to base cost out of reach; not even thinking about $400-$450 for 2 full play sets.

Restricted lists won't work in a game like pokemon, it's something the makers have avoided for nearly two decades and isn't gonna start now. It started that way in yugioh, but now they just make stuff they know they would have to restrict and print even less, leading to even worse supply demand issues and bigger profits.

If you are just playing at home with your son and are still learning don't bother too much about shaymins. You only need them if you are gonna compete at sanctioned events. Focus on picking up two play sets of the basic staples and keep in mind the formats are rotating in a few months, so don't spend a ton on battle compressors, siesmitoads or manectrics as we don't know if they will be rotated or not yet. But that only matters if you are going to be playing competitively.
 
The meta game is really pretty diverse at the moment, there are about six decks that could have a chance at my nationals (UK) next weekend, four real contenders, two outside shots. I would imagine we will see 4-6 deck types in top 8 cut. That is a diverse metagame. There have been plenty of times in this and over TCGs where only two or one deck was viable. 3-4 is considered healthy by most.

Are you considering the size of the card pool? The composition of those decks?

There are 10 full sized expansions currently available for the Standard Format. While some of those may be heavy with reprints and no set is entirely new cards, there are also mini-sets and promos to compensate. We are looking at a card pool of about 1200 to 1300 unique cards. If you have six decks with no shared cards between them, that would mean only about one in four cards is really competitive. In reality, those decks have a lot of overlap and so the ratio is far less (but not easily estimated, so I won't even throw in a guess).

That assumes you were talking about Standard. If it was Expanded, now we are looking at 21 full sized sets, again all of which include at least a few reprints and at least one that is almost entirely reprints, but with even more added mini-sets and promos to compensate. Now we are looking at something like 2500 to 2600 unique cards. If the competitive metagame were composed of decks that again had no repeated cards, you'd need 10 such decks for the metagame to consist of about one in four released cards. In most American government schools, a failing grade is 60% or less.

I won't ask for a citation of "most", rather I'll challenge the authority of the majority. To the best of my knowledge TCGs have a high turnover rate; people will join the game, play for a year or two, and then effectively if not outright quit. Among long term players, there is a vested self interest to ignore if your game isn't really as good as you want it to be; as an individual you cannot effect much change, so it is easier to lower your standards than to raise those of the company. If you want details for can elaborate, but I have been playing the Pokémon TCG since its general North American release in 1999, when I started playing as a teenager. I have not agreed with the game's direction for several years now, but because the fundamentals are solid and I am able to play while only investing time (not money) thanks to the PTCGO, I remain hoping things eventually turn around.

So... even if "most" state that three or four top decks is good, I must vehemently disagree for the reasons I have just presented. I do suspect Pokémon is one of the better TCGs; I have played others over the years but anything better than Pokémon sadly ended up failing commercially due to reasons other than the gameplay and rules balance. I also am aware that what I remember as being better may not have been, as besides general nostalgia goggles, useful information is more widespread (paid or free) than back in the day, and attitudes about things like using published, winning lists has become acceptable, if not expected, where once it was shunned.


As for Shaymin, to start in yu-gi-oh or MTG standard formats you are looking at more than $300 for a tier 1 or 2 deck. For pokemon you can buy 4 sycamore, 2 N, 4 Battle compressors, 4 VS seekers, 4 Trainer's mail, 4 Ultraball, 1 hex, 2 lysander, 1 xerosic and most importantly 3 Shaymin EX for under $200. This core will allow you to build any other deck in the meta for less than $70.

Whereas if you were to spend $270-$300 for MTG or Yu-gi-oh or (especially) Vanguard then you would be locked into that deck choice and have to spend another $300 if you wanted to change. Where as in pokemon you have the most expensive core of the "best" deck being the same core as in all other decks.

And if you want to play greninja which is probably one of the best two decks in format at the moment (UK meta) then you don't need the $150 for shaymin. You can probably do that deck for about $100-120 from scratch. Maybe less.

All trading card games have strong or slightly OP stuff, and t1 lock decks have and will always be the most broken thing available in any tcg. T1 locks shouldn't exist. Vile plume and Trevenant are too good for a game with no way to counter your opponents moves (like traps in yugioh or counter spells in mtg).

But overall pokemon is the cheapest and most accessible, and also the most diverse TCG around at the moment.

If you want to play competitively just man up and buy three shaymin. After that it's a very cheap hobby.

You have many accurate statements here and they are well worth considering, I have to disagree with your conclusions.

No, Pokémon is not a cheap hobby. It may be less expensive than its closest competitors, but all are really overpriced. Likewise it may be the most diverse, but it is not actually diverse. I'll spare you that lecture unless you literally ask for it. ;) Yes if someone wants to be competitive, he or she simply has to bite the bullet and buy the Shaymin-EX (or other key cards) needed, though I thought Shaymin-EX was slated for a possible re-release in Japan, which means if you don't need Shaymin-EX for a tournament ASAP, holding off might be shrewd. If it has been confirmed such a reprint isn't happening or is Japanese only, then yes, just get them now. That way if they are reprinted, you can hopefully have gotten your money's worth from using them before then. Time it well and take care of your cards, and sometimes you can even come out ahead by selling them off right before prices really drop then obtaining less expensive reprints.
 
Ah Otaku, you are very right, but you misunderstood my intentions. I did not claim that a diverse and (reasonably) balanced meta game meant I agreed with the pokemon companies set design (or lack thereof). Good meta =/= good card design on the whole

I'm not sure why they insist on making about 5-10% (a number I'm making up for arguments sake but feels pretty correct to me) of cards in any given set playable at a moderate or high level and every other card in the set be completely worthless (from a competitive playing point of view). But that's how they roll.

I guess the ideology behind it is that they would prefer to try and get a small number of cards correct and fair, be cautious and if in doubt underpower a card than overpower it. Focus on the small number of cards that they know will be viable and fill the set up with fun and random crap for the collectors and kiddies.

Competitive players don't buy as much as the set collectors, and overall most cards are sold to random kiddies who just like pokemon and never bother to learn the rules. Most competitive players just buy on the secondary market, which stimulates a little sales for the TCG source company but not as much as other sources. So while pokemon will often put tonnes of time and resources into their competitive side, it can't make as many sales as people who buy but don't play competitively. It just doesn't make as much sense.

I would love to be able to stop opening three or four packs, looking through them, going I got nothing, putting the crappy unplayable rares in my folder where nobody will ever want them and putting the rest of the cards in my big box of commons nobody will ever use. I would love to be like, Ooooh this common has potential, or this uncommon could be used in this interesting way.

But the more interactions and abilities they put in the more dangerous unforeseen card combinations turn up. MTG hire the best players they can find to be card testers along with the set designers. This top level play test group spend months with each set playing dozens of different decks daily (yay alliteration). But they still miss game breaking and meta shifting combos on a regular basis. I don't think yugioh even bothers any more. They just print a load of shit, see what floats to the top and if need be ban or restrict it until their metagame is working again.


As for the cost of pokemon, like I can't think of any hobby that is cheap to get into. Hobby might as well mean "random interest you throw far to much money at", try picking up a new sport, especially a full contact one or an extreme one, you will spend way over $200 for initial starter kit. Fishing, even a beginner set of golf clubs, some balls and a monthly membership to the local green, gonna be over $200. Video gaming? Pfft try getting a current get console for under $200, even second hand with only one controller and two games you won't unless you risk craigslist or whatever. If the hobby was cheaper it might not exist as we know it, they might not be making enough to have giant live stream tourneys, hires good (from certain points of view) card designers, the awesome artists we all love, the scholar ships, the promo prize support they send out, the advertising and the online game. As far as TCG's go pokemon is the cheapest to enter into at a competitive level if that is your goal in the game. As for hobbies? Pokemon can be as cheap or expensive as you like, I have one friend who just buys a couple of packs every time she is in town and has spare change. Puts her cards in an album and just looks at them occasionally. That's the level she takes the hobby to. Me and my fiancée are about 60 cards (mostly full arts and secret rares) away from having a full playset of standard. We have sunk a LOT of money and time into this hobby, but for us it's our main hobby, we are two young people with expendable income and a love for the cards and this game. We are very much the exception.

In the UK there are maybe 40 players who are legitimate threats to top eight a regionals, in the whole US there are maybe what 150 good players? By good I mean will be able to top cut multiple regionals, cities and states in a year and have a reasonable shot at cats. I promise you they don't spend enough on cards to make it worth the pokemon companies time and effort to hold those tournaments. But the other 2000 people in the UK who will show up to one or two local cities or regionals, play some random deck that is months old in the eyes of the metagame followers, go 2-4 and go home with maybe a single booster as a thank you from the TO? That's when it starts getting worth holding those events. Because without those events those people wouldn't collect or play. And without the countless kiddies and random collectors like my friend who just buy a few packs every week when they can afford it the CCG wouldn't exist. Most cards printed are a reflection of the collectors and kiddies. Us who follow the meta and tourney scene seriously look at the random chaff and go Pfft why did they bother. But some little kid somewhere is jumping around their living room because they just pulled an Exploud and they love Exploud.

You have to just accept that most the cards printed won't fit your niche interest in the hobby, because there are about five different ways people enjoy this hobby and Pokemon Company caters to all of them well.

As for the Shaymin EX thing, yeah you are right. It also depends if you are gonna plan on playing expanded next year, cause if it does rotate and expanded continues to be a popular format for cities and regionals then shaymin are still gonna be required to a certain extent.
 
Ah Otaku, you are very right, but you misunderstood my intentions. I did not claim that a diverse and (reasonably) balanced meta game meant I agreed with the pokemon companies set design (or lack thereof). Good meta =/= good card design on the whole

That last sentence doesn't make much sense to me; you cannot have a good metagame with lousy card design. Even accidental/unintentional good card design is needed. Did you mean that just because you have good card design, you may not have a good metagame? This might be true, but only if you somehow separate good card design from good rest-of-game design, which seems... odd.

This may be part of what I attribute to lowered expectations. If we used the iconic letter grades seen in schools, right now we mistake a "C" level metagame as an "A" level one, because all we really see are "C", "D", and a whole lot of "F" ones. This makes it seem like, even with a lot of dodgy card design, like we have a good metagame. It means we separate things that ought not to be separated. If your card design is not leading to a healthy metagame, it isn't good card design.

I'm not sure why they insist on making about 5-10% (a number I'm making up for arguments sake but feels pretty correct to me) of cards in any given set playable at a moderate or high level and every other card in the set be completely worthless (from a competitive playing point of view). But that's how they roll.

Least amount of effort for the payoff I suspect (coupled with things discussed later). They know they can do it this way and still make money; doing it the better way carries more risk and a lower reward.

I guess the ideology behind it is that they would prefer to try and get a small number of cards correct and fair, be cautious and if in doubt underpower a card than overpower it. Focus on the small number of cards that they know will be viable and fill the set up with fun and random crap for the collectors and kiddies.

Yes, this is safer but not really safe; things like Tropical Beach demonstrate how a seeming bit of hard-to-collect filler can dramatically affect the metagame because of underestimating its effect. This is why I loathe a principle espoused by some WotC designers I read. They intentionally create bad cards so that players who enjoy the challenge of finding a use for them can do so, as well as making it so that not every card has an intended use. However in a system all about balancing countless variables, these seem like they are begging to go wrong sooner or later. Again, if this thought seems incomplete, it is because I'll expand upon it quite soon.

Competitive players don't buy as much as the set collectors, and overall most cards are sold to random kiddies who just like pokemon and never bother to learn the rules. Most competitive players just buy on the secondary market, which stimulates a little sales for the TCG source company but not as much as other sources. So while pokemon will often put tonnes of time and resources into their competitive side, it can't make as many sales as people who buy but don't play competitively. It just doesn't make as much sense.

Non-collector, non-player purchases most like outstrip either of the other two by a significant margin. At one time serious players were apt to get more packs, because you either got what you needed or got adequate (sometimes quite good) trading fodder. Maybe it was less a matter of more even card design and more a matter of player ignorance, but it seems a worthwhile goal to strive for even if it is difficult to meet.

The fact that OP exists means either it is a prestige thing the-powers-that-be desire, or that it contributes to long term stability (and thus sales) of a TCG. I suspect both to be true. Now what it is important is to consider not only the hierarchy of what makes the most money, but which of the three major markets (player, collector, other) has interests that clash with the others. "Other" (people who neither truly play nor collect) have minimal requirements; maybe price point but probably nothing other than being "Pokémon" or "the Pokémon TCG" is required. There are ways to lose them, but it would have to be bizarre things (cards lose all artwork =P). Collectors obviously need something to collect, but again as long as you don't make things too boring (losing foils and the like) or completely strip the collector aspect entirely (releasing cards as complete sets, no collecting required) you'll keep them.

So... that just leaves the players. The smallest group, but the only one a TCG can easily lose or (with effort) expand significantly.

I would love to be able to stop opening three or four packs, looking through them, going I got nothing, putting the crappy unplayable rares in my folder where nobody will ever want them and putting the rest of the cards in my big box of commons nobody will ever use. I would love to be like, Ooooh this common has potential, or this uncommon could be used in this interesting way.

But the more interactions and abilities they put in the more dangerous unforeseen card combinations turn up. MTG hire the best players they can find to be card testers along with the set designers. This top level play test group spend months with each set playing dozens of different decks daily (yay alliteration). But they still miss game breaking and meta shifting combos on a regular basis. I don't think yugioh even bothers any more. They just print a load of shiat, see what floats to the top and if need be ban or restrict it until their metagame is working again.

The thing is, part of this is their own fault; they chose to go for the "gimmick to gimmick" approach. I would like to see "gimmicks" be more about collecting (as in holofoils, reverse holos, Full Arts) and not about game play, at least until we have a stable base (which I believe we are currently lacking).

As for the cost of pokemon, like I can't think of any hobby that is cheap to get into. Hobby might as well mean "random interest you throw far to much money at", try picking up a new sport, especially a full contact one or an extreme one, you will spend way over $200 for initial starter kit. Fishing, even a beginner set of golf clubs, some balls and a monthly membership to the local green, gonna be over $200. Video gaming? Pfft try getting a current get console for under $200, even second hand with only one controller and two games you won't unless you risk craigslist or whatever. If the hobby was cheaper it might not exist as we know it, they might not be making enough to have giant live stream tourneys, hires good (from certain points of view) card designers, the awesome artists we all love, the scholar ships, the promo prize support they send out, the advertising and the online game. As far as TCG's go pokemon is the cheapest to enter into at a competitive level if that is your goal in the game. As for hobbies? Pokemon can be as cheap or expensive as you like, I have one friend who just buys a couple of packs every time she is in town and has spare change. Puts her cards in an album and just looks at them occasionally. That's the level she takes the hobby to. Me and my fiancée are about 60 cards (mostly full arts and secret rares) away from having a full playset of standard. We have sunk a LOT of money and time into this hobby, but for us it's our main hobby, we are two young people with expendable income and a love for the cards and this game. We are very much the exception.

I think you are not equally applying the same criteria

As for hobbies? Pokemon can be as cheap or expensive as you like...

That goes for almost any hobby. For some people, writing can be a hobby. I am fond of tabletop role-playing games, though I haven't played one in quite some time. My preferred rules system (GURPS) allows you to download the GURPS Lite .pdf for free. It contains simplified rules but they are compatible with the full game. You just need some paper, a pencil at least one set of three six-sided dice, plus your imagination to play the game. If you want to have to do less of the work on your own, the two core books are Basic Set: Characters and Basic Set: Campaigns. Those the two books are rather pricey together (you could be looking at enough to pay for a deck if we consider shipping or the cost of a storage medium for the digital versions)... well I should explain the game's name:

Generic
Universal
Role
Playing
System

GURPS is basically a tool kit to run any kind of setting for an RPG. Other supplements are available, but either contain alternate rules, optional rules, or simply use the actual rules to "build" more advanced mechanics and settings from them (saving you the effort of doing it yourself). There are a lot of supplements, but especially if you do have a storage medium to save digital copies to (technically you could read them on anything that can access said medium) you'll find it about as affordable as a TCG, but far more diverse.

Let us also not forget the associated costs of playing a TCG; yeah it is quite inexpensive if you and your friend each buy a second hand World Championship deck (as an example), but even typical casual level play means repeatedly investing every few months in new cards. Anyway, a lot of hobbies have variable costs and a lot of the classical ones are almost free. ;)

In the UK there are maybe 40 players who are legitimate threats to top eight a regionals, in the whole US there are maybe what 150 good players? By good I mean will be able to top cut multiple regionals, cities and states in a year and have a reasonable shot at cats. I promise you they don't spend enough on cards to make it worth the pokemon companies time and effort to hold those tournaments.

They don't have to; the cost for tournaments is spread out among all product sold. You don't have to top cut to be helping to pay for the tournaments. ;) Also remember there are intangibles we cannot easily measure, like how Organized Play may bring stability/long term sustainability to the game, where as lacking those things can result in a less expensive but less substantial product, a la Digimon and many other TCGs.

But the other 2000 people in the UK who will show up to one or two local cities or regionals, play some random deck that is months old in the eyes of the metagame followers, go 2-4 and go home with maybe a single booster as a thank you from the TO? That's when it starts getting worth holding those events. Because without those events those people wouldn't collect or play. And without the countless kiddies and random collectors like my friend who just buy a few packs every week when they can afford it the CCG wouldn't exist. Most cards printed are a reflection of the collectors and kiddies. Us who follow the meta and tourney scene seriously look at the random chaff and go Pfft why did they bother. But some little kid somewhere is jumping around their living room because they just pulled an Exploud and they love Exploud.

I have addressed this stuff elsewhere. Though I'll repeat with the last bit: it doesn't have to be exclusive. They can make a worthwhile Exploud (and indeed have before!) so that the player and the kid are happy.

You have to just accept that most the cards printed won't fit your niche interest in the hobby, because there are about five different ways people enjoy this hobby and Pokemon Company caters to all of them well.

Again, it isn't an "either/or" proposition, but in many cases it can be "both".

As for the Shaymin EX thing, yeah you are right. It also depends if you are gonna plan on playing expanded next year, cause if it does rotate and expanded continues to be a popular format for cities and regionals then shaymin are still gonna be required to a certain extent.

Unless something replaces or hard counters it later on. Or it gets reprinted. etc. Lots of stuff can change in that time. ;)
 
That last sentence doesn't make much sense to me; you cannot have a good metagame with lousy card design.

The key to that sentence I believe is the last bit. "On the whole" Pokemon can make good cards that make a balanced meta game. But those cards make up a very small percentage of a set. Can you imagine them releasing a 200 card set where every card had good/playable abilities, attacks, energy costs etc? No, they use filler cards because it's easier and there is a percentage (there is no way of knowing statistics) of customers who don't care too much. Kiddies, collectors, kitchen table players.

And you are probably right, laziness is one factor in this.

Yes, this is safer but not really safe; things like Tropical Beach demonstrate how a seeming bit of hard-to-collect filler can dramatically affect the metagame because of underestimating its effect.

This is down to Pokemon's love of weird products, like the generations set spawning Jolteon EX's, trying to find an energy disruption Jirachi (67 I believe) promo and a hundred other cards in pokemon's history. Sometimes they make up for it with reprint sets near the end of the season. Like the supposed japan release with reprints of every key card from standard (whether they will count as reprints for the sake of the rotation or not remains to be seen unless I'm out of date). It's a problem, Yugioh does similar, MTG is better, they don't release many promos (that aren't alt art prints or similar) that can't be found in mass market decks or similar. Pokemon make so many weird and wonderful products to appeal to the casual collector and pocket money crowds that it's obvious they value these higher than the competitive players, otherwise you wouldn't get one off promos like tropical beach, XY jirachi and the whole generations set that is very hard/expensive to get hold of even the bad cards. (I am aware they realised they needed to make a product that will sell generations to the competitive players easily so they made the 10 booster trainer kits that are coming out soonish)

That goes for almost any hobby. For some people, writing can be a hobby. I am fond of tabletop role-playing games, though I haven't played one in quite some time. My preferred rules system (GURPS)

Funnily enough GURPS lite 2nd ed was my first ever RP system, I've been playing RPG's for over a decade. If you torrent the PDF's it can be a very cheap hobby, but most groups (at least in my experience) get a ton of books, my last housemate (and I'm not exaggerating, he was obsessed with collecting entire RPG systems) had every GURPS book ever published (as well as the entirety of 2nd AD&D and 3rd and 3.5 official material and a lot of 3rd party stuff) and dozens of other systems, there was an entire room in our flat dedicated to just his RPG collection, it was like a small library. But also our group invested in initiative trackers, critical hit decks, dice sets, hundreds of pounds worth of miniatures and battle tiles. I guess we could have done it for free with some internet PDF's, but even when we had full copies of everything in PDF we ended up buying and using real books because the kindles, or laptops froze, sometimes the scans weren't great quality, it was harder to find the right page if the book wasn't formatted correctly to the scan etc.

RPG's can be a very low cost hobby or you can spend thousands. Pick your poison. When you love something you end up investing. Hobby literally means pointless waste of time I spend too much money on and wouldn't change for the world. If you want to play a TCG competitively out of the big four pokemon is the cheapest to get into by a fairly large margin.

I have addressed this stuff elsewhere. Though I'll repeat with the last bit: it doesn't have to be exclusive. They can make a worthwhile Exploud (and indeed have before!) so that the player and the kid are happy.

EXACTLY!!! They could, they really really could, and I think they should! But for some reason Pokemon disagrees with us, wether laziness or convenience like you suggest, or because they feel the investment (design time as well as money) in extra writers and play testers and everything else that would be needed to write 160 playable cards a set instead of 10-30 isn't economically worth it like I think.

Unless something replaces or hard counters it later on. Or it gets reprinted. etc. Lots of stuff can change in that time.

See the thing with that is either they print an even more efficient version of shaymin (god forbid) that does the same thing but better, they rotate it or hard counter it so bad they kill it off (which is something that they haven't seemed to want to do yet) then even if they give it a reprint (apart from possibly as a normal rare or 2 in some starter deck like they did with Mewtwo/Darkrai) then it's still gonna be hella expensive. Jirachi EX is still more or less at it's same price point as when it was in standard (at least in my country) and you only ever need 1 Jirachi EX, because they made expanded a thing. If expanded wasn't a thing then Jirachi EX would be like £2, so would Mewtwo EX, Virizion EX and everything else good that rotated out of standard with BW era. But that's not happened. And even if Shaymin rotates out of standard this year (which is very questionable) then as long as major tournaments are in expanded Shaymin EX will be a very expensive card.

This is why I loathe a principle espoused by some WotC designers I read. They intentionally create bad cards so that players who enjoy the challenge of finding a use for them can do so, as well as making it so that not every card has an intended use. However in a system all about balancing countless variables, these seem like they are begging to go wrong sooner or later. Again, if this thought seems incomplete, it is because I'll expand upon it quite soon.

This is why there are so many dozens of different formats in MTG. You don't have that in pokemon, there aren't really dedicated play groups that only play pokemon as it was in 2011, we only have standard and expanded. MTG also has the advantage of one card (and it's variants) that pokemon doesn't. Counter spell. Assuming you have left the resources required open, you can automatically shut down ANY (I am aware of certain things like split second) strategy the opponent does. Imagine if you could "counter spell" your opponent evolving into trevenant or maybe counter spell an activated ability such as Set up or Water Shuriken.

With all the dozens of strange formats any card they print has the potential to have it's day in the sun. Those crappy 2+u vanilla 2/2 creatures? They are awesome in a booster draft or prerelease.

But pokemon doesn't have groups that regularly booster draft as a format (at least I've never heard of any or seen discussions here), every MTG player probably has a EDH/commander deck built somewhere even if they don't play it much, but pokemon doesn't have these options, there aren't groups that play Unlimited pokemon to a competitive level. It's standard or expanded there aren't other formats that are regularly played. And that is a lot less cards to balance, and a lot less to go wrong. They don't have to worry how Puzzle of time might interact with some card from 2006, they just need to worry about how it interacts with (at most) the last 12-18 sets. And even if they started printing sets where 50-80% of the cards had some viability instead of each set having one or two strong deck archetypes (Nu fighting and Alakazam the obvious two from fates collide, with Delphox a close second).

And they obviously do take these into account, you know those slightly childish articles they post on their website where they walk you through a deck archetype step by step, they are always saying stuff like "try playing a mix of new and XY base greninja for more options". They obviously took the Draw delphox into account when designing delphox break. And I would wager hard money that they knew roughly what delphox break was gonna do when they were designing Flareon EX in generations.


I think we more or less have similar ideas in mind for where we would like to see pokemon change their designs, but we have different ideas of why it's like it is at the moment and how that should be changed.
 
I actually have thought about some of what you bring up (meaning before you brought it up; obviously I have after). ;)

The key to that sentence I believe is the last bit. "On the whole" Pokemon can make good cards that make a balanced meta game. But those cards make up a very small percentage of a set. Can you imagine them releasing a 200 card set where every card had good/playable abilities, attacks, energy costs etc? No, they use filler cards because it's easier and there is a percentage (there is no way of knowing statistics) of customers who don't care too much. Kiddies, collectors, kitchen table players.

And you are probably right, laziness is one factor in this.

They have never released a 200 card set. The other mistake is assuming they need to create (for example) 100 brand new competitive cards for a set. Large set sizes are more a matter of keeping collecting interesting than pleasing competitive players (at least right now). As such, including alternate art versions of existing cards could easily pad out a set. Consider varying rarities as well. The two approaches also work together; one set has the normal rarity version of the card, the next might have the Full Art; the FA is still huge for the collectors, but it won't matter much for the players.

This is down to Pokemon's love of weird products, like the generations set spawning Jolteon EX's, trying to find an energy disruption Jirachi (67 I believe) promo and a hundred other cards in pokemon's history. Sometimes they make up for it with reprint sets near the end of the season. Like the supposed japan release with reprints of every key card from standard (whether they will count as reprints for the sake of the rotation or not remains to be seen unless I'm out of date). It's a problem, Yugioh does similar, MTG is better, they don't release many promos (that aren't alt art prints or similar) that can't be found in mass market decks or similar. Pokemon make so many weird and wonderful products to appeal to the casual collector and pocket money crowds that it's obvious they value these higher than the competitive players, otherwise you wouldn't get one off promos like tropical beach, XY jirachi and the whole generations set that is very hard/expensive to get hold of even the bad cards. (I am aware they realised they needed to make a product that will sell generations to the competitive players easily so they made the 10 booster trainer kits that are coming out soonish)

I don't agree with your assessment, as "weird products" can still keep the flavor with fun alternate art versions of existing cards... which would seem better for not only game balance but budget as well.

Funnily enough GURPS lite 2nd ed was my first ever RP system, I've been playing RPG's for over a decade. If you torrent the PDF's it can be a very cheap hobby, but most groups (at least in my experience) get a ton of books, my last housemate (and I'm not exaggerating, he was obsessed with collecting entire RPG systems) had every GURPS book ever published (as well as the entirety of 2nd AD&D and 3rd and 3.5 official material and a lot of 3rd party stuff) and dozens of other systems, there was an entire room in our flat dedicated to just his RPG collection, it was like a small library. But also our group invested in initiative trackers, critical hit decks, dice sets, hundreds of pounds worth of miniatures and battle tiles. I guess we could have done it for free with some internet PDF's, but even when we had full copies of everything in PDF we ended up buying and using real books because the kindles, or laptops froze, sometimes the scans weren't great quality, it was harder to find the right page if the book wasn't formatted correctly to the scan etc.

RPG's can be a very low cost hobby or you can spend thousands. Pick your poison. When you love something you end up investing. Hobby literally means pointless waste of time I spend too much money on and wouldn't change for the world. If you want to play a TCG competitively out of the big four pokemon is the cheapest to get into by a fairly large margin.

Again, the point was that most hobbies can vary in their cost. "torrent the PDFs" doesn't sound legal, but some libraries due carry gaming books. ;) You may also borrow them from friends if there is one you want to read but don't feel the need to own. Most importantly as I stated, they are optional; if you want someone else to have done the grunt work of designing and testing rules or researching settings, you can pay for more supplements, but if you do not have to and instead can do it yourself or turn to the work of other players (now even easier to share than ever before).

Also with your specific example:

1) Collecting. Not playing the RPG, but collecting the books. Much like some people play Pokémon and some collect, while they involve the same materials they are two separate hobbies. One can of course both play and collect.

2) While it will vary according to system, as long as you do a little research you can probably find one where your books are going to be good and current for years, maybe decades. Let us use GURPS as an example. At first it looks bad: 1st Edition was 1986, 2nd Edition was either '86 or '87, and third edition was 1988. Fourth Edition, the current one, released back in 2004 and SJ Games have made it clear 5th Edition isn't happening anytime soon (if ever). The early rapid changes were in part due to marketing/packaging the product a bit different. The nature of GURPS also means older GURPS supplements can be adapted to newer editions and newer supplements can be adapted to older editions. So if you invested in GURPS 4e books as they released, your oldest ones have been enjoyed for over a decade. Some of your 3e ones may have been enjoyed for two (and are still able to be used with the current edition!).

3) It isn't just what the cost is but where it goes; you buy a boat because fishing is your hobby... and you've got a boat! You buy a rare card because its for collecting or playing and... its a rare card for collecting or playing. With RPG rule books (again), it is similar; you buy something other than the core rules, and its like getting an entire TCG expansion.

4) Yes Pokémon is the most affordable for competitive TCG play... and I'm saying competitive TCG play ain't affordable. ;)


EXACTLY!!! They could, they really really could, and I think they should! But for some reason Pokemon disagrees with us, wether laziness or convenience like you suggest, or because they feel the investment (design time as well as money) in extra writers and play testers and everything else that would be needed to write 160 playable cards a set instead of 10-30 isn't economically worth it like I think.

We are agreeing so I only quoted to show I did read it. XD

See the thing with that is either they print an even more efficient version of shaymin (god forbid) that does the same thing but better, they rotate it or hard counter it so bad they kill it off (which is something that they haven't seemed to want to do yet) then even if they give it a reprint (apart from possibly as a normal rare or 2 in some starter deck like they did with Mewtwo/Darkrai) then it's still gonna be hella expensive. Jirachi EX is still more or less at it's same price point as when it was in standard (at least in my country) and you only ever need 1 Jirachi EX, because they made expanded a thing. If expanded wasn't a thing then Jirachi EX would be like £2, so would Mewtwo EX, Virizion EX and everything else good that rotated out of standard with BW era. But that's not happened. And even if Shaymin rotates out of standard this year (which is very questionable) then as long as major tournaments are in expanded Shaymin EX will be a very expensive card.

Not sure if we are really disagreeing; note the winking emoticon (;)) I used; that wasn't a particularly serious point I was making.

I think we more or less have similar ideas in mind for where we would like to see pokemon change their designs, but we have different ideas of why it's like it is at the moment and how that should be changed.

Seems like it, but that can make for good conversations. And yes I did skip a large chunk about how MtG does things differently than Pokémon; I don't know MtG that well, which includes whether some of their filler cards were designed originally to promote those ways of playing... or if those ways of playing came out in response to finding a use for those cards. ;) Either way, I was talking about a general design principle and while I can't name the card (again, don't know Magic) I think the example was a Spell that made you discard your entire hand, that the designers admitted they made as a bad card and how they were kind of impressed when some MtG players figured out a use for it. That just seems reckless.
 
To be honest, I'd argue that the metagame is NOT diverse really. If you want to play competitively, you have a combination of specific cards in the deck (i.e. Shaymin EX, VS Seeker, etc) and have the consistency to boot. Ironically, this leads to again the combination of cards to have that consistency which drives up prices on staple. This in turn puts it out of the reach of the casual fanbase. $50-60 for Shaymin EX may not sound much for yourself EARNING money, but for families and other priorities, that is $50 better spent elsewhere. Also, artificially restricting staple cards makes it worse as you need to literally P2W. VS Seekers? Pay $10.50 each OR buy 4 Mewtwo VS Darkrai decks for $25 a pop.

This is in comparison to the first time TCG came out with Wizards of the Coast. At that time, you can easily build a deck and still have a chance of winning WITHOUT utilising specific cards. Anyone remember the times you had an explosion of decks then? No? Probably just me but that's how I see TCG SHOULD be. Decks that may not be competitive can still have a chance of winning well. Now, we only have realistically 4 decks. 4 decks. I repeat that again if you don't understand. Our metagame is GOVERNED BY 4 DECKS. Sure, you can argue this is because of how popular it is but remember a few years ago, we had a wild variety of decks with the introduction of XY to Furious Fists alongside Boundaries Crossed onwards.

All in all, I've said what I've seen thus far with Pokemon and the meta. Perhaps the later sets might change this but I don't foresee TCPi changing their attitute any time soon.
 
This is in comparison to the first time TCG came out with Wizards of the Coast.

Wait, do you mean when the Pokémon TCG first came out under WotC? There were a lot of decks then, but that was because so few people knew what was good and there weren't so many places to go on the web to get help. The early metagame (once settled) is an awful lot like today's. =/
 
Pokémon has always been horrible at maintaining formats. The only difference now is that we currently have to deal with it. Majestic Dawn on was dominated by SP and VileGar, HGSS-on had like 4 legal sets until it became mewtwo wars, BW-on was the same 3 decks that were essential just big EXs with vanilla attacks, and more than half the matches played in Boundaries Crossed-on were decided by laser flips and Ns to 1. Let's just all be grateful we don't have to deal with hypnotoxic lasers anymore.
 
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Pokémon has always been horrible at maintaining formats. The only difference now is that we currently have to deal with it. Majestic Dawn on was dominated by SP and VileGar, HGSS-on had like 4 legal sets until it became mewtwo wars, BW-on was the same 3 decks that were essential just big EXs with vanilla attacks, and more than half the matches played in Boundaries Crossed-on were decided by laser flips and Ns to 1. Let's just all be grateful we don't have to deal with hypnotoxic lasers anymore.

There were some formats that may have been better, but it could just be that back in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006 enough players (or at least people like me XD) didn't know where to go for the information needed to realize how truly homogeneous the format actually was.

Otherwise, what makes it so frustrating right now is how many things causing at least some distress right now are mistakes of the past.
 
I only play right now on TCGONE, and this is what I face. These decks, alongside houndoom-ex mill decks and M-Mewtwo X decks are really all I see.
That is a very poor representation of the meta game IRL. Decks such as Greninja BREAK and YZG are much more prominent then the mentioned M-ray and sesmitoad at the moment. Houndoom and M Mewtwo are almost non-existent as well
 
If you want to play competitively just man up and buy three shaymin. After that it's a very cheap hobby.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Of course, you're going to have fixed costs such as the price of Vs. Seekers, Battle Compressors, Trainers' Mail, and the traditional assortment of Supporters, but Fighting archetypes are one of the few deck classes that can actually afford to not run Set Up Shaymin without sacrificing substantial amounts of stability, especially now since we got Carbink BREAK.
 
I only play right now on TCGONE, and this is what I face. These decks, alongside houndoom-ex mill decks and M-Mewtwo X decks are really all I see.
That is a very poor representation of the meta game IRL. Decks such as Greninja BREAK and YZG are much more prominent then the mentioned M-ray and sesmitoad at the moment. Houndoom and M Mewtwo are almost non-existent as well

Just to be clear, I realize that Doomdesirer's post is a month old by now. XD I missed it until Thepiguy quoted it. So I don't remember what the general metagame was like exactly a month ago, but I don't know if I need to: the important thing to remember is that "Your Mileage May Vary". That expression originated because mileage (how far you could drive on a certain amount of fuel) is still a big deal for vehicles so good mileage was heavily advertised but with the caveat that you might not (as it turns out, probably won't) achieve the advertised performance. Ads usually reference ideal driving conditions, and even then the exact car might not perform quite as well as the ones they tested. Even without being a lemon, yours could be an outlier.

So getting back to the metagame, technically everyone has a unique metagame based on exactly what decks they have faced. That is just how reality works: you face the decks you face. Even if 90% of the actual format consists of a particular deck, you might go an entire tournament only experiencing the other 10%. This is why most of us focus on the competitive metagame, which even then is an "after the fact" situation; you look at what performed well at the most recent events and use it to get a baseline for what you can expect at the next. The thing is most competitive events will vary and some will vary wildly from the mean results. A lot of folks complain about Night March being "everywhere", but in terms of what wins it is the best performing deck (right now), has been in Standard for a bit but only recently in Expanded, and it still isn't that much more common than the next two most winning decks in Expanded.
 
Actually, that's not entirely true. Of course, you're going to have fixed costs such as the price of Vs. Seekers, Battle Compressors, Trainers' Mail, and the traditional assortment of Supporters, but Fighting archetypes are one of the few deck classes that can actually afford to not run Set Up Shaymin without sacrificing substantial amounts of stability, especially now since we got Carbink BREAK.

I would completely disagree, I ran Zygarde/Carbink today at a tournament actually, and while my list was a little rough around the edges I did well (top 4 in twelve man four round tourny), and I promise I needed two shaymins just to keep up. The only deck that might not need them is Greninja that uses Octillery instead, but I've seen Greninja lists be successful with Shaymin and Octillery, but haven't played them myself so wouldn't be able to tell you which runs better, my guess would be Shaymin vs quick decks and Octillery vs long game decks
 
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