Pokemon Are Types Made Up?

[Chaos Jackal]

It's quite rare to see past references in the anime and manga... To answer to both you and KoN, Fairy-type is considered a new classification, but in the Pokemon world, it means Pokemon have the Fairy element since forever (check: Fairy Plate), but humans hadn't yet understood it. As such, Snubull being hit super effectively by Fighting moves are erased and it's like they never happened. You think this poses a consistency and continuity problem, but it really doesn't. We're not talking about one, continuing story, but of numerous smaller ones. None of the stories contradict with each other because they don't interact. It's a game that evolves every Generation. You can't expect it to have a top-notch storyline, especially if its parts are unrelated.

 

[Mitja]

Funny, I was just thinking about this a while ago XD

Chaos Jackal pretty much nailed down what I was going to write.

In the pokemon world, Snubbull didn't change, we just get a more "accurate" look at the pokemon world as the games become more sophisticated etc.
Clearly, in ORAS, Ralts/Marill/Jigglypuff/Mawile will be Fairy-type, like they've never been anything different.

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It does make you wonder though...
perhaps some day the understanding of types will be expanded even further, to a point where each pokemon has a certain degree of several types.

So that instead of each pokemon being so binary classified, haveing only one type or two types simutlaneously, each pokemon would have 10x10% of type association.

For example Flygon would be:
1st 1/10 - Ground
2nd 1/10 - Ground
3rd 1/10 - Ground
4th 1/10 - Ground
5th 1/10 - Dragon
6th 1/10 - Dragon
7th 1/10 - Dragon
8th 1/10 - Bug
9th 1/10 - Bug
10th 1/10 - Flying
written differently: 40% Ground, 30% Dragon, 20% Bug, 10% Flying

in the status window, I'd imagine a "type bar" like this:

and then all the weaknesses/resistances and STAB would be calculated using ratios according to these degrees.

I know pretty much everyone would respond to this with opposition ala "its too complicated I won't know what's weak to anything bla bla"
But ask yourself, would that really be a bad thing?
The result would be a lot more diversity in terms of weaknesses and all that.
The weaknesses would remain similar to what they were before, they'd just be slightly modified.
It would give it a more "natural" feel, since Flygons weaknesses would not be the exact same as Garchomps (

), but slightly different due to smaller (newly discovered) traces of its Bug and Flying type association.

In my Flygon example, some type-match-ups would be as follows:
Grass= ( 2x4 + 0.5x3 + 0.5x2 + 0.5x1 ) / 10 = (8+1.5+1+0.5) /10 = 11/10 = 1.1x damage
Ice= ( 2x4 + 2x3 + 1x2 + 2x1 ) / 10 = (8+6+2+2) /10 = 1.8x damage
Normal= (1x4 + 1x3 + 1x2 + 1x1) / 10 = 1x damage
Electric= (0x4 + 0.5x3 + 1x2 + 2x1) / 10 = (0+1.5+2+2)/10 = 5.5/10 = 0.55x damage

But I specifically used Flygon as the example because it would be one of the more complicated cases.

Something like Arcanine would probably be 80% Fire, 20% Normal

Water = 2x0.8+1x0.2 = 1.8x damage
Fire = 0.5x0.8+1x0.2 = 0.6x damage
Which remains quite close to what it is right now, so it's not like this turns into rocket science, it's just less straightforward and would motivate more trial and error. Remember back in gen 1, when you'd be against some weird pokemon and were guessing what might work and then tried and learned? At least I thought that was fun.

It would also allow type diversity between pokemon that are considered the same type combination:

Slowbros Water type would become more prominent than when it was Slowpoke, due to the Shellder, but Slowking would go the other way, Psychic becoming more prominent.


But back to the point.
Even if such a system was put in place some day, the ingame world would pretend its always been that way, we just didn't know it as precise back then etc.

EDIT:
another example because this is just so fun XD

Toxicroak

50% Poison
30% Fighting
20% Dark

Naturally it should be quite weak to Psychic, but the Dark addition should milden it now
Psychic= 2x0.5 + 2x0.3 + 0x0.2 = 1.6x damage

Being half Poison and neither of the other 2 having to do with Ground, it's pretty straightforward to figure that Ground moves should work good too (1.5x damage to be precise).
And the 30% Fighting gives it a minor Flying weakness: 1.3x damage

notice how immunities don't just nulify the damage across the board, but only as much of the damage as the degree this pokemon is associated with the type.
(this would also give abilities like Levitate and Lightningrod more reason to exist)

also notice how I eliminated the multiplication aspect of weaknesses (quadruple weaknesses), as at maximum, a pokemon can be 2x weak to a type (which happens if the whole type-bar is weak to it)
if the damage in general would be too low with this, the formula could obviously be tweaked so the effect of type-match-ups would be bigger, but it would still be a more wide spectrum rather than the digital feel of "it's a double or a quad weakness", you'd think of it on a range with several steps between slightly weak and very weak instead.

EDIT2:

STAB would be very simple:
the bonus is the same as the percentage of the type bar.

Meaning, Flygon has 140% with Ground moves, 130% with Dragon, 120% with Bug and 110% with Flying.
Arcanine has 180% with Fire moves, and 120% with Normal moves.

 

[CMP]

...and now, Mitja, I want that to happen. It'd definitely add an additional layer of complexity to the game. Might take some getting used to, a bit of relearning, but it could shake things up nicely and could be a possible answer to the question posed in this thread. Go work for Gamefreak.

I think it'd be fun to get a few of us together and make the 10x10% classification for every Pokémon.

 

[Mitja]

...and now, Mitja, I want that to happen. It'd definitely add an additional layer of complexity to the game. Might take some getting used to, a bit of relearning, but it could shake things up nicely and could be a possible answer to the question posed in this thread. Go work for Gamefreak.

I think it'd be fun to get a few of us together and make the 10x10% classification for every Pokémon.

Heh, I wish xD
I'd have a bunch of suggestion that I've overanalyzed for the lolz.

The only downside I've noticed on the type-bar mechanic so far is that pokemon with more types in general lean towards less serious weaknesses, meaning something with just 2 colors in their type gets those 2x weaknesses much easier, than something where all 4 colors need to have a shared weakenss for that to happen.
Not sure if that's really a downside though, because it's not even remotely as severe as current pokemon that are unfortunate to have quad weaknesses, AND the simpler type bars would get much bigger STAB as a compensation in my system.

Typhlosion (Fire/Normal-8:2) = 1.8x Fire STAB , 1.2x Normal STAB
Infernape (Fire/Fighting/Dark-5:4:1) = 1.5x Fire STAB, 1.4x Fighting STAB, 1.1x Dark STAB


Oh and immunities should probably nulify the damage altogether...unless the ground-targeted moves+airborne mechanic were added too lol.


EDIT:

I figure resistances play too small of a role with the formula I've used in the earlier post.

Because, take Venusaur for example (Grass/Poison-6:4).
Its more prominent type, Grass gives it a resistance to a type to which it's less prominent type, Poison, is weak to: Ground.
So you'd expect the damage from Ground moves to be less than regular damage.
0.5x0.6+2x0.4=0.3+0.8=1.1x

so perhaps abandoning multiplication altogether is the way to go.

My fix is:
each 10% of a type weakness adds +10% of damage (and resistance reduces by 10%), rather than doubling (and halving) it's part.

Venusaur attacked by a Ground move:
100% - 6x10%+ 4x10%= 80%
attacked by a Fire move (a big weakness)
100% +6x10% = 160%
attacked by Psychic (a smaller weakness)
100% +4x10% = 140%
attacked by Electric (bigger resistance)
100% -6x10% = 40%
attacked by Fighting (smaller resistance)
100% - 4x10% = 60%
fair enough.

This gives rise to a new form of situational immunity however, as any type being resisted by the whole type-bar does 0% damage.
Then it hit me.. if immunities were replaced by mere resistances..a pure Normal type would for example still have a Ghost immunity due to this system.
Immunities might be unnecessary in the type chart altogether, being reserved for abilities.

Let's do Flygon again. (which is still 40% Ground 30% Dragon 20% Bug 10% Flying)
Ice: 180% (strong against all but the 20% Bug)
Dragon, Fairy: 130% (just +30% for it's Dragon type)
Flying: 120% (+20% for it's Bug part)
Water: 110% (+40% for Ground, -30% due to Dragon)
Normal, Psychic, Dark, Ghost, Steel: 100% (no match-ups)
Fire: 90% (-30% due to Dragon, +20% due to Bug)
Rock: 90% (-40% due to Ground, +20% for Bug, +10% for Flying)
Bug: 90% (-10% due to Flying)
Ground: 90% (-10% due to Flying)
Grass: 80% (+40% for Ground, -30% due to Dragon, -20% due to Bug, -10% due to Flying)
Fighting: 70% (-20% due to Bug, -10% due to Flying)
Poison: 60% (-40% due to Ground)
Electric: 60% (-40% due to Ground)

As you can see, Flygon has a unique range of type modifiers.

Something simpler for comparison again.

Garchomp (60% Dragon, 40% Ground)

Ice: 200% (strong against both parts)
Dragon, Fairy: 160% (+60% for it's Dragon type)
Normal, Bug, Flying, Fighting, Psychic, Dark, Ghost, Steel: 100% (no match-ups)
Water: 80% (+40% for Ground, -60% due to Dragon)
Grass: 80% (+40% for Ground, -60% due to Dragon)
Rock: 60% (-40% due to Ground)
Electric: 60% (due to Ground)
Poison: 60% (-40% due to Ground)
Fire: 40% (-60% due to Dragon)

and even closer to a pure type
Arcanine (80% Fire, 20% Normal)
Water, Rock, Ground: 180%
Fighting: 120%
Normal: 100%
Bug, Fairy, Fire, Grass, Ice, Steel: 20%
Ghost: 80%


due to the new way immunities emerge from pure types out of any resistance, absolutely pure types would have to be limited to Normal (as all other types that aren't called Ice have several resistances which would turn into immunities), as that only grants them Ghost immunity like it already did before.

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

I understand Blob's original raised question, since if the anime also showed (I suppose) something like that then it's non-canon by now. That a type was just discovered is fine but then the episodes where the type match up don't match up raises the doubt if it's just non-canon or human influence.

While types are a human classification, I don't believe that's exclusive to humans and scientific community. Pokémon like Kecleon can change its type and Staryu can have Camouflage. Last but not least, Arceus isn't a human creation and yet it has Plates covering all types (which might be expanded if new ones are created).
Talking about human creations, if Porygon exists I'm sure some Pokémon could be changed (modified by humans) to become other Type, mimicking something like Ditto. Since Mew is the origin of all Pokémon, then it's cells might contain the method to fo just that.

Also, Pokémon are always advancing (to use other word that's not "evolving") and new ones apperaring, otherwise Amoonguss and Fongus wouldn't have a pattern that's like nowadays Pkballs (pertaining the anime this may be discussed due to the Pokemonpolis(?) episode featuring giant modern Pkballs (unless foreshadowed by a Natu/Xatu) and the Celebi movie where Oak uses a low tech Pkball)) and Pokémon like Voltorb, Electrode, Trubbish, Garbordor, Grimer, Muk, Koffing and Weezing being created. Still to be debated is how Deoxys is classified as a Psychic, when looking at this discussion it could be a new type!

That said, types still raise some questions. I was playing B2 and my Pokémon was hit with Soak. Hoe does a Pokémon that's soaked (just watered) is going to be affected by a "couple" of throwing flying leaves, even if it's Metal or Dragon? Getting extra damage from electricity is fine, but Grass-type attacks!?

---

In X and Y, the assistants I believe clearly state that the Fairy type is a new type classification.

From a real-world perspective, we can look at it this way rather reasonably:
The Fairy type has always existed. However, given their appearances and powers, were easily classified under different types instead.
Mawile has mutated fangs supposedly comprised of steel. Easy enough to classify as a Steel type.
Clefairy (and it's line) are rare Pokemon, not often observed. Classified as normal types for their signature move of Metronome. However, they do at times exhibit strange behavior when observed, along with other powers. This was assumed because they had some relevance with outerspace, and as such were unique... But one line isn't enough to classify a whole type.
(...)tl;dr
The classification of Fairy types coming late is a human error.

Then Clefairy and Psyduck would have been a Psychic type as well. That said, while they don't show it as frequently as others, perhaps they were given other labels.

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I have to doubt that all wild Pokemon are aware of type effectiveness. They are something classified by humans. And while a good amount of Pokemon are smart enough (or are way past being smart enough) to figure "types" out, most are essentially animals. They simply fight to survive.
That is why it takes a two-person team of Pokemon and Trainer to win battles.

I think the Sudowoodo episode kinda proves that wrong. Sure, an individual might learn the bad way that they don't like certain element (water for ex.) but in species that live in groups, they must have awareness of their own condition (namely when some Pokémon have more IQ than humans like you'vesaid), also something that almost surely is passed down to the next generation.
Also, it does show how human can be wrong and taking into account that in the anime it's apparently just one Prof. guy that makes the Pkdex entries and in the games we don't even know who's responsible, then human mistake is a common thing.


PS: why are we the ones discussing these things? It would be interesting to see an in-game Pokémon Prof. touching upon them instead of just having a theme of research and then making some vague questions a couple of times through the games!