Ash: Kalos League Champion?

If they wanted to give other characters the ability to mega evolve and if they want to link the main Pokémon series with the evolution special characters, then yes I could see it.

Of course Alain wants to beat all the mega evolutions. Ash has a few other potential megas too. Heracross, Sceptile, Glalie, Pidgeot (if it ever come back) and Garchomp (if Gible ever evolves anyway.)
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Really? I more see the battle being interrupted by Team Rocket and never completed afterwards.
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While it's most than likely TR's meddling, a battle interrupted or even a tie in a battle between two Mega-Charizards would just be like a punch in the stomach for fans...That would be too low, namely when Tr's already made appearences in other important battles and were sent flying before they could even interfere.
Hell, now you've left me with a bitter taste because if that ever happens then the creators would be too cheap and I didn't thought that possibility.
 
On the other hand, you have people who have followed Ash for a long time. Some since the very start. Now one can argue how much he's really learned ,or hasn't learned as the case would be argued at the core. Despite being seemingly older we have no idea how much so Alain is or how long he has been training. He's not even really training to be a champion or a master or anything, just to beat mega evolutions, something that could easily be lumped in with what Ash is trying to do anyway. He did beat Korinna's Mega Lucario after all. Granted Alain has beaten at least two mega evolved Pokémon that we know of (Garchomp and Absol) but those are the only two battles we know of, period.

The difference in attitude between the two aside, can you prove that Alain really deserves to beat Ash in a fight? For some how would that, an essential newcomer beating someone most of us have known for years, come across as, maybe the punch to the stomach? I think that would be worse than Trip's Snivy beating Pikachu, at least they tried to justify that. After all we are not talking about a gym leader (and Ash has lost to his fair share of them), elite four member, or league champion.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
On the other hand, you have people who have followed Ash for a long time. Some since the very start. Now one can argue how much he's really learned ,or hasn't learned as the case would be argued at the core. Despite being seemingly older we have no idea how much so Alain is or how long he has been training. He's not even really training to be a champion or a master or anything, just to beat mega evolutions, something that could easily be lumped in with what Ash is trying to do anyway. He did beat Korinna's Mega Lucario after all. Granted Alain has beaten at least two mega evolved Pokémon that we know of (Garchomp and Absol) but those are the only two battles we know of, period.

The difference in attitude between the two aside, can you prove that Alain really deserves to beat Ash in a fight? For some how would that, an essential newcomer beating someone most of us have known for years, come across as, maybe the punch to the stomach? I think that would be worse than Trip's Snivy beating Pikachu, at least they tried to justify that. After all we are not talking about a gym leader (and Ash has lost to his fair share of them), elite four member, or league champion.
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Taking into account Alain's goal and the fact that he evolved his Charmander all the way to a Charizard, he probably knows what he's trying to achieve and so having a good training, despite not being aimed at Gym Leaders and E4. He may be a newcommer to the anime but he's certainly not one in terms of training. The fact that Alain isn't a character with a title isn't of such relevance, taking into account the fact that Ash went to a Gym battle agaisnt Elesa with a single Pokémon, so who's to say that Ash wouldn't just lose the fight with Alain? Ash and the anime have proven that nothing is garanteed.

As for the punch in the stomach I wasn't talking about who has the right or probability to win the battle but that in what can be an epic battle, it would be bad to have a tie or worse yet, have the battle interrupted. I think it's better to have an outcome than thinking who would have been the winner if the battle wasn't interrupted. As for the tie, Ash has lost agaisnt a Blaziken and Tobias, so why not give the win to someone (Ash or Alain), mostly so when tied battles end up with both Pokémon fainting after some major explosion and smoke?...I feel it's pointless.
 
Well there is really no way to know what would happen unless they do it (which I think unlikely). Though yes the fact that Ash brought one Pokémon to a gym match was stupid, as Elesa said she is choosing to ignore that. Pretty nice in my opinion. For the anime though it isn't just about the trainer, it's also about the Pokémon. I mean, we don't know much about the experience of Alain's Charizard except it battled enough to evolve and trusts Alain enough to mega evolve.

We do know about a lot of Ash's Charizard. As narrow as it may have been he beat a Frontier Brain's Articuno (or might as well have been his) he stood up against an Entei that was basically boofed up by Molly Hale and the Unown in the third movie. It trained for what we'll call years in Charific Valley. It fought said Blaziken that Ash lost too, but Blaziken itself was so injured that Harrison couldn't use it during his next match. Granted he's had his share of pitfalls as well, the aforementioned Blaziken, Tobias' Darkrai, a Dusclops.

I can think of one good reason why a battle would end up not having a conclusion. His boss Lysandre (who as we all know is the evil head of the Kalos team) lies to Alain about what is going on and what he is doing, why he needs to stall Ash and co. Ash might be helping Diantha or someone to stop Lysandre. Alain might start battling Ash until he realizes that his boss lied to him, and stops the battle of his own accord under the idea that the battle is being fought for the wrong reasons. Granted, it might never be picked up in a future episode, but at least it would have nothing to do with Team Rocket or whatever, but his own sense of honor. It might be a proverbial punch but at least not in the stomach.

Really though there is no reason to assume that Ash would lose anymore than there is a reason to think Alain would lose. In fact one would hope that Ash wouldn't lose and then become Kalos Champion (where he would have to face a Mega Gardevoir anyway) or become champion and lose to Alain.
 
I do not think Ash would win the kalos league.
Considering the fact that he was in the top 4 in the Sinnoh League and lost to an overpowered Guy namely Tobias in the semi-finals and in the very next season he was in the top 8 losing to a trainer in a 5 on 6 battle. It just means that Ash is going down.
And Pikachu vs Snivy??
Pikachu is definitely stronger than Snivy but perhaps it was intended to show the Pikachu had lost a considerable amount of his energy because of that zekrom incident.
 
Dawn said:
I do not think Ash would win the kalos league.
Considering the fact that he was in the top 4 in the Sinnoh League and lost to an overpowered Guy namely Tobias in the semi-finals and in the very next season he was in the top 8 losing to a trainer in a 5 on 6 battle. It just means that Ash is going down.
And Pikachu vs Snivy??
Pikachu is definitely stronger than Snivy but perhaps it was intended to show the Pikachu had lost a considerable amount of his energy because of that zekrom incident.
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yeah... for the previous reasons I explained... they find an excuse for making him losing each season ... :/
 
Better to have an excuse to lose each season than having him be Kalos league champion, them moving on to the next generation of Pokémon with Ash and Pikachu, and then have Pikachu most likely lose early and easily.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Better to have an excuse to lose each season than having him be Kalos league champion, them moving on to the next generation of Pokémon with Ash and Pikachu, and then have Pikachu most likely lose early and easily.
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I wouldn't mind :/
 
I know this borders on video game logic and I've always said that video game logic clearly doesn't apply with anime logic, but then again this has never come up either:

In the video games, ever since generation one, when you beat the Champion, be it your rival in gen one all the way to Diantha in gen six, you become the league champion. That means in theory if you were to ever be beaten in the game the one who beats you would become champion instead. If you think about it that would be an interesting twist in a new game to become the champion but then (a most likely extra) storyline would require you actually lose the fight and have to fight the elite and new champion over again. It wouldn't be that long a storyline but it'd be a new twist. But anyway, back to my point.

In the anime, let's say Ash becomes the new Kalos Champion. First off, what are the rules for that? How long can a region champion not be in that region, after all they have a title to defend? I guess it has to be doable after all Diantha has a career outside of league champion. More to the point, let's say Ash travels to the new region with Pikachu, and let's go with the BW situation where an electric legendary 'drains' Pikachu of it's high level and high power and the result is that Ash loses to the guy that will be his region rival and his just acquired starter. By game logic that now makes him Kalos league champion.

The anime would most likely not acknowledge this of course but the fans obviously would. That's something I think should be avoided, especially when so many people already find other reasons to belittle Ash, essentially loosing the champion title to a first time rookie would be just wrong.
 
While I believe Ash will not be the Kalos Champion for a number of reasons, I do think your "game logic" falls flat in this instance. It's shown in the anime the Champions can (and do) battle outside of the League structure and presumably they are not at risk for losing their titles for all of these matches. It appears that, according to the anime it is technically allowed to challenge the Champion for the Champsionship outside of the League structure, but these challenges are still formal, telecast events (which is also presumably how Champions are able to travel around and do things since they only have to defend their titles at certain points). Other matches, such as Diantha's battle against Ash early in XY and other matches Champions may choose to partake in for fun or for practice, likely have no stronger consequences than a normal, friendly battle.
 
Hey, I was the first to admit that game logic does not generally apply to anime logic. I'm pretty sure I'm always one of the first to admit that one.

But as you said, it is presumable that they are not a risk for losing their titles. Let's be honest here, Diantha and Ash had their battle interrupted. Claire essentially won her battle against Iris. In the few instances we've actually seen champions they don't lose their matches so we don't really know what happens or how that works, we can only speculate with what little info we really have. Truth be told we're probably reading more into this than the creators really expect.

Again the point does become moot because most people, myself included, don't see Ash becoming a region champion of any kind, especially if they intend to keep the anime going.
 
Athena said:
While I believe Ash will not be the Kalos Champion for a number of reasons, I do think your "game logic" falls flat in this instance. It's shown in the anime the Champions can (and do) battle outside of the League structure and presumably they are not at risk for losing their titles for all of these matches. It appears that, according to the anime it is technically allowed to challenge the Champion for the Champsionship outside of the League structure, but these challenges are still formal, telecast events (which is also presumably how Champions are able to travel around and do things since they only have to defend their titles at certain points). Other matches, such as Diantha's battle against Ash early in XY and other matches Champions may choose to partake in for fun or for practice, likely have no stronger consequences than a normal, friendly battle.
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Not only that but the E4 may stand as a firewall for League Champions, thought I don't remember that happening and so I'm left wandering what's their role in the anime.

Pikachu6319 said:
Hey, I was the first to admit that game logic does not generally apply to anime logic. I'm pretty sure I'm always one of the first to admit that one.

But as you said, it is presumable that they are not a risk for losing their titles. Let's be honest here, Diantha and Ash had their battle interrupted. Claire essentially won her battle against Iris. In the few instances we've actually seen champions they don't lose their matches so we don't really know what happens or how that works, we can only speculate with what little info we really have. Truth be told we're probably reading more into this than the creators really expect.

Again the point does become moot because most people, myself included, don't see Ash becoming a region champion of any kind, especially if they intend to keep the anime going.
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Answer: After becoming Champion Ash sees Ho-oh and them...Bump, Ash fall from his bed and the Pidgey alarm clock comes out and Ash is late for the start of his Pokémon journey.
 
My understanding is that a trainer needs to collect all 8 gym badges from a respective region, although I believe at least the Indigo league had a few other ways they could be considered to have reached that point too. Then they have the Pokémon League to determine the ultimate winner. That winner goes on to face the Elite Four. If that trainer can defeat the E4 they can challenge the champion themselves to claim that title. This much of course is also true for the video games. Such things are supposed to be big time affairs. We have seen evidence of that when Drake (I think) challenged (and presumably lost to) Cynthia. We've seen various challenges against them in the past. Ash challenged. and lost to, Lorelei/Prima of Indigo's E4, and Alain has challenged Siebold of Kalos E4 and lost and he challenged Steven (who at some point had to beat former champion Wallace back in DP) but had that battle interrupted.

On a smaller scale anyone can freely request a battle from the champion. As Athena said presumably these aren't official affairs and it is true would have no bearing on the champion's title itself. As I said earlier though the only times we've actually seen champions challenged by any of the main characters they've either lost or been interrupted.

As this pertains to Ash, regardless of whether the title would or would not be lost, you have the fanbase out there that would question how Ash could be/why Ash should be the champion of any region regardless if his Pikachu loses to a rookie trainers starting Pokémon after losing its power to whatever legendary. At the core, this is why Ash will never be a league champion until they choose to end the series.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Hey, I was the first to admit that game logic does not generally apply to anime logic. I'm pretty sure I'm always one of the first to admit that one.

But as you said, it is presumable that they are not a risk for losing their titles. Let's be honest here, Diantha and Ash had their battle interrupted. Claire essentially won her battle against Iris. In the few instances we've actually seen champions they don't lose their matches so we don't really know what happens or how that works, we can only speculate with what little info we really have. Truth be told we're probably reading more into this than the creators really expect.

Again the point does become moot because most people, myself included, don't see Ash becoming a region champion of any kind, especially if they intend to keep the anime going.
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Hey ... 1) I believe there was a rule mentioning that the winner of the League will battle E4 and then Champion.

2) Remember Ash battling Alder ? He had actually won because Bouffalant didn't want to continue and Alder forfeited. Friendly matches can occur between Champ and a traveller as easy as E4 and a champ (In D/P When an E4 member challenged Cynthia, or Paul).

3) Again, nobody said "Make him champ now". There is a reason they are not doing this (explained in the first post). I just said why not show that there something more after the league. Alder said that to him. Become Champion... and then what? Gary even quitted his dream. I believe it would be very good to have a unique storyline like the PAdventures. There don't have to be always "get 8 badges with new pokes and then lose in the league". In the PAdventures manga (more specifically see G/S/C or D/P), the gym leaders don't serve their typical role. There is a plot behind this, a criminal org, a natural disaster etc, and it would be a LOT better if we had an "Ash" that could save the world under those circumstances. An "Ash" that could be a powerful trainer, a champ in some region. And it doesn't have to be a champ, just winner of the league. Then they could relate his journeys in unknown regions, exploration of new kinds of pokemon, environments, legendaries, myths, small culture things (sometimes the small things matter in some episodes -that is a good thing in the X/Y anime), focus more on character development. Create a figure that small children (and I don't believe 10 year old will have as an idol a 10 year old, tbh the proper age for Ash would be 16-18) can look up to .
 
Ash did win a league. Granted it was the Orange Island leagues and has pretty much no impact anywhere else in the anime to date, but Ash did win a league.

Yeah, it would be kind of nice to see Ash win the Kalos league itself only to have his match, technically a rematch I suppose, against Diantha only to lose. It would put him further up in the standings than he has ever been before. All of those things mentioned "unknown regions, exploration of new kinds of pokemon, environments, legendaries, myths, small culture things" do happen in the anime but on smaller scales and most fans end up calling those filler episodes, and are done without forgoing the idea of gym battles and the league. I do think this could be done more than it is though.

I understand that there has to be something after being champion, but maybe Ash, or anyone in that position for that matter, should just concentrate on climbing the hill first then worry about the mountain. Alder can worry about the proverbial mountain because he is already at the top of that hill.

Character development...what exactly do you mean by this? One could say that showing how one (over)reacts in gym battles is character development though as Ash proved with his match against Elesa it doesn't always mean it's good development. The kind of Pokémon one catches could be considered character development, like when Ash caught the Squirtle he really wanted to start out with and Brock getting Happiny (later Chansey) was a factor that lead him to decide to be a Pokémon doctor instead of a Pokémon Breeder. Dawn lost like three straight Pokémon contests and had to alter her strategies to finally start winning, does that count? I mean, if Serena fails her first showcase but then learns something to help her win the next one is that character development? Towards the start of XY Ash lost to Viola the first time, trained to prepare for her moves, had a small conversation with Serena that lead to a lightbulb moment, and then challenged her again for the badge and won, is that character development?

How much development can a character go through when someone has watched that character for over a decade? I agree that there is room for some improvement in character development but what is it that is being looked for here, especially on a children's show?

The problem with making someone a child can idolize (and let's be honest some would say it's sad that a child has to look to a TV character to find this, but that's another topic entirely) is that people look for different things. They can't make everyone happy. I wouldn't have Ash as an idol even as 8-10 year old but then again I can't think of any kids TV shows that I watched that has a character I would've idolized.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Ash did win a league. Granted it was the Orange Island leagues and has pretty much no impact anywhere else in the anime to date, but Ash did win a league.

Yeah, it would be kind of nice to see Ash win the Kalos league itself only to have his match, technically a rematch I suppose, against Diantha only to lose. It would put him further up in the standings than he has ever been before. All of those things mentioned "unknown regions, exploration of new kinds of pokemon, environments, legendaries, myths, small culture things" do happen in the anime but on smaller scales and most fans end up calling those filler episodes, and are done without forgoing the idea of gym battles and the league. I do think this could be done more than it is though.

I understand that there has to be something after being champion, but maybe Ash, or anyone in that position for that matter, should just concentrate on climbing the hill first then worry about the mountain. Alder can worry about the proverbial mountain because he is already at the top of that hill.

Character development...what exactly do you mean by this? One could say that showing how one (over)reacts in gym battles is character development though as Ash proved with his match against Elesa it doesn't always mean it's good development. The kind of Pokémon one catches could be considered character development, like when Ash caught the Squirtle he really wanted to start out with and Brock getting Happiny (later Chansey) was a factor that lead him to decide to be a Pokémon doctor instead of a Pokémon Breeder. Dawn lost like three straight Pokémon contests and had to alter her strategies to finally start winning, does that count? I mean, if Serena fails her first showcase but then learns something to help her win the next one is that character development? Towards the start of XY Ash lost to Viola the first time, trained to prepare for her moves, had a small conversation with Serena that lead to a lightbulb moment, and then challenged her again for the badge and won, is that character development?

How much development can a character go through when someone has watched that character for over a decade? I agree that there is room for some improvement in character development but what is it that is being looked for here, especially on a children's show?

The problem with making someone a child can idolize (and let's be honest some would say it's sad that a child has to look to a TV character to find this, but that's another topic entirely) is that people look for different things. They can't make everyone happy. I wouldn't have Ash as an idol even as 8-10 year old but then again I can't think of any kids TV shows that I watched that has a character I would've idolized.
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By character development I meant like PAdventures again. Characters weren't a bit ... boring... if you know what I mean. They had secrets, reacted in a certain way sometimes, had fears and as story developed you discovered a part of them that you either was curious about it or didn't know entirely.
 
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