Ball Engine - Viability pre- & post-rotation.

[The Fire Wyrm]

Collector is complete garbage at the moment

Please don't post if you barely know anything about the game. Seven posts wont cut it bro.
Collector is probably the best search supporter right now. It is $7 dollars for a reason.
So please stop spreading this false information.

Anyways, this ball engine might actually make Eels the BDIF. I mean come on, level ball for Eels and Tynamo's, dual ball for Zekroms, ultra ball for Dynamotor. This is just crazy.

I might have to switch to a deck I hate.

 

[venasour x]

Adding on to DNA's point:

While you do have one more PONT/N/Draw Supporter when you play Collector, you also have more Collector that clog your deck! This makes Pokegear especially useless after you get N'd late in the game as you do not want to see a Collector or even worse, Gear/Random Receiver into a Collector. Dual Ball can be played quite expendable as you can fail a search and still have that draw Supporter. Furthermore, most of the time, getting those guaranteed Basics aren't even necessary! Sure you want a couple baby eels and another attacker but that's really all you need to get going and that isn't terribly hard. I will concede there are different playstyles and playing Collector is certainly not a bad one, but you have to also concede that the Dual Ball version is more widely played and the most successful in winning tournaments.

dmaster out.

I may be old school, but I still strongly prefer the 4 Collector/0 Dual Ball method. Usually I take a Thundurus and 2 baby Eels and then Charge. I like to know that I will almost always get a decent set up T1 than going for a Dual Ball, Junk Arm for a Dual Ball and then play some Supporter for the turn. I don't see how that is superior than for a Collector. I like my Junk Arms, and I don't want to waste them on a flippy set up card.

 

[Brave Vesperia]

^ I agree. I was just in a game where one person had to play 2 Dual Ball and flipped double tails on both but somehow he Junk Arm'd twice and flipped one heads on his last flip. Imagine if that wasn't a heads. (basicly I'm saying you have to be very lucky for Dual Ball to work) Also, now that Darkrai EX is coming out, I would like to garuntee I get some Eelektrik out.

 

[sonicboom]

well i think im the only one that runs a 3/3 split

 

[alex]

^ I agree. I was just in a game where one person had to play 2 Dual Ball and flipped double tails on both but somehow he Junk Arm'd twice and flipped one heads on his last flip. Imagine if that wasn't a heads. (basicly I'm saying you have to be very lucky for Dual Ball to work) Also, now that Darkrai EX is coming out, I would like to garuntee I get some Eelektrik out.

You don't have to be lucky to use Dual Ball. You just can't be very unlucky, which that guy was. Only 2 heads out of 8 flips? That's not not being lucky, that's being unlucky.

I do not think Collector should be used in any deck in the current format other than trainer lock.

 

[dmaster]

I may be old school, but I still strongly prefer the 4 Collector/0 Dual Ball method. Usually I take a Thundurus and 2 baby Eels and then Charge. I like to know that I will almost always get a decent set up T1 than going for a Dual Ball, Junk Arm for a Dual Ball and then play some Supporter for the turn. I don't see how that is superior than for a Collector. I like my Junk Arms, and I don't want to waste them on a flippy set up card.

Like I said, there are different ways to play and I will concede that that version is fine or ok. The problem is, it's not the best. The fact is, if you play Dual Balls and a draw Supporter, you have a more likely chance of not whiffing on an Energy or other vital cards you need the following turn. It's just a speedier version that does rely on coin flips, but in the end the speed is what wins the game. Imagine going second and not even having a Collector (or even an Energy)! (Which does happen by the way.) Then you start the game at an insane disadvantage than getting one to two heads. I'm surprised people are not conceding that it is superior when the Dual Ball versions of decks are winning, I suppose some people are just stubborn...

dmaster out.

 

[venasour x]

I could try Dual Ball, but so far I haven't seen any real difference between Dual Ball and Collector, just that Collector is more consistent and Dual Ball is faster because you get that Supporter. What if you play ZekEels, and you get 1 Dual Ball heads and, play the Supporter, and draw into 1 Tynamo. You say go. Then your opponent plays Collector, gets 2 Tynamo and a Tyrogue. He drops 2 Tynamo and the Tyrogue, retreats, Catchers up one of your Tynamo and BOOM! All of a sudden he is 1 Prize up, and you are forced to struggle to get that second Elektik out while he automatically has 2 or 3, depending on his starter. This happens so often that I still can't see how it is better. Maybe I am stubborn. IMO you are forced to run more Pokemon to compensate the fact that you need to draw into them more often, instead of searching them out.

 

[DNA]

Yeah, but if you run both Collector AND Dual Ball, you could easily get a full bench T1 and not need to worry too much about not getting things set up. That's why I think it's a good idea to run both.

Let's say you have an opener with a Collector, 1 Dual Ball, 2 {L} Energy, Junk Arm, Thundurus, and a PONT. This is a pretty good start and it doesn't always happen, but let's just do this for the sake of argument. You play your Thundurus as your Active, attach, try Dual Ball. Okay, 1 heads, not bad; get a Tynamo. You opt to be adventurous and Junk Arm (to discard the other Energy and Collector) and Dual Ball again. You get 1, maybe 2 heads this time. Get another Tynamo and either a Zekrom or a 3rd Tynamo (or even Cleffa). Now your hand has only one card, the PONT. Use it. Oooh, we've got Skyarrow, Level Ball or 2, another Energy...some more goodies! Then you can Charge your Thundurus and you're good to go.

Cutting to the point: there is nothing wrong with running both, and that can help you get a strong early-game presence as well as maintain a good late-game presence; running enough Dual Ball means you're running no more than 2 Collector and you don't run the risk of drawing them late-game (which you NEVER want to do). Most people, on average, get about 1.4 Heads with this card I've noticed - most of the time they get 1, sometimes they get 2, and once every so often they get 0. But it doesn't waste your Supporter for the turn so you're free to use Oak or N or what have you. With Collector, you aren't able to Oak that turn and see what else you get

I'm not saying that my approach is the right (or the best) one, nor am I saying yours is wrong, but I've noticed that builds that use Dual Ball are generally better off, and they tend to have a stronger field presence. (As a rule of thumb, I tend to run 2 Collector and 3 Dual Ball in my decks, except when I use Vileplume, in which case I run 3 Collector and 0 Dual Ball instead.)

 

[Captain Oats]

Most people, on average, get about 1.4 Heads with this card I've noticed - most of the time they get 1, sometimes they get 2, and once every so often they get 0.

You can't average 1.4 (or anything other than 1) without accounting for weight differences on a coin/dice or reusing it via JA. Anything other than that is a combination of luck and unaccountable variation. 2 flips, each with a 50/50 chance comes out to an average of 1.

Having said that, though, I do think dual ball is worth the deck slots. I tend to prefer keeping a collector or two in my decks due to trainer lock. I don't always want to Juniper or shuffle draw and hope to get the basic I need as well as other usable cards. Pure collector is static yet slightly slower overall while pure Dual Ball is completely reliant on RNG. Both have their flaws on their own.

 

[Blui]

The ball engine is good, especially Dual, Ultra, Heavy and Level Balls. They can just get stuff out super quickly. What Captain Oats said^

 

[dmaster]

I like your approach DNA. The only problem I see with running both is that it messes with your consistency regarding Pokegear/Random Receiver and the fact that you do take up another slot than if you opted for 4 of one of them. But yeah, it is another option...

dmaster out.

 

[DNA]

You can't average 1.4 (or anything other than 1) without accounting for weight differences on a coin/dice or reusing it via JA. Anything other than that is a combination of luck and unaccountable variation. 2 flips, each with a 50/50 chance comes out to an average of 1.

I know; the extra .4 is mostly accounting for luck differences and such. It isn't a true statistical figure; it's based mostly on personal observation.

I like your approach DNA. The only problem I see with running both is that it messes with your consistency regarding Pokegear/Random Receiver and the fact that you do take up another slot than if you opted for 4 of one of them. But yeah, it is another option...

My approach probably isn't the best either, but it's one I'm comfortable with, so I'm going to go for it, and in the meantime I'll be tweaking with other options to see what works best.

 

[iisnumber12]

Ball engine = Bad
Balls in general = Good

Every deck is good with one of the Ball cards, but playing all of them is bad unless you are playing Hippotas/Darumaka.

 

[Card Slinger J]

I'm tempted to try the Dual Ball Engine in ZekEels, might be a big risk for Battle Roads though. Flip 2 heads or roll twice to get Evens/Tails on both and you're stuck with no Basics unless you Junk Arm Dual Ball to try again. Seems like a waste IMO when you could use that Junk Arm to get something more useful like Catcher or Switch.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

The only legitimate reason to run Collector > Dual Ball in Zeels is if you can always get the T1 Collector + Energy in hand. If not, well...

 

[iisnumber12]

@ Card Slinger J

I'm using 2 Dual Ball and 3 Collector in my Zekeels. Try it out, it works wonders.

 

[Rikko145]

I'm using 4 Dual Ball, 2 Heavy Ball, and 2 Ultra Ball in Speed Donphan, and it's amazing. I haven't played a game yet that I didn't get T2 Donphan(s).