Fun Base Set - Aquapolis Decks
- Thread starter ortomy
- Start date
I think it is the last set before supporters. Im not sure, i dont make the rules.
It is actually Legendary Collection that was the last set before Supporters came into play.
Expedition Base Set was the first set to feature Supporter Cards.
Is this a thing at League or something for a small group of friends?
Like @TokenDuelist said, Supporters debuted in Expedition, the set right before Aquapolis. If you can find out why Skyridge didn't make the cut, let us know. It might be because of a few cards in it for all I know. As is, the presence of Energy Removal and Energy Removal 2 (both printed in Base Set and Base Set 2) will greatly affect things. Is there an erratum for Slowking (Neo Genesis) or is it being played "as is"?
I know these are a lot of questions, but I played during all of these sets so I have some vague remembrance of the Unlimited Format during this time. Oh and are modern rules being used or the rules from this time period?
League
Not sure why it is Aquapolis specifically, but that is just what the tournament organizer set it to. We keep the Slowking banned, and we have decided to ban Energy Removal (Super energy removal is fine). And we are using the rules of that time.
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Alright... I think you (collectively) will regret leaving Super Energy Removal for the following reason:
Haymaker and variants. It hurts a little losing Energy Removal but as long as you've got Super Energy Removal you'll still be good. Just imagine something like Hitmonchan (Base Set), Electabuzz (Base Set) or Erika's Jigglypuff attacking for a single Energy attachment and then, unless they are OHKOed, the opposing player will use Super Energy Removal (discarding the only Energy attached to the card) while taking out two of your own Energy, then use Scoop Up to bounce the Hayamker Pokémon, promote the next attacker or a pivot Pokémon which you can then retreat for free to your previous Active after you Bench it again. Scoop Up would have discarded the Energy from the Haymaker Pokémon as it bounced anyway, so you get all the benefits of both cards but basically used Super Energy Removal for free. Might have to play the Muk (Fossil) beatdown deck version (true Haymaker decks are mono-Basic Pokémon) which limits space a bit more for such fun tricks.
With that out of the way I recommend Turbo Snorlax for a deck. I won't give you a list because I not only don't have one handy but I'm a bit pressed for time and you'll be better off tweaking whatever I give anyway. In fact, Trainers and Energy shouldn't be too hard to figure out; the former should be minimal since you'll so rarely be able to use them. So I'll just give an idea of the Pokémon count (which is high; good thing you have a reason not to run as many Trainers as normal).
Pokémon x 21
2 Cleffa (Neo Genesis)
4 Dark Gloom
3 Dark Vileplume
4 Snorlax (Jungle)
4 Oddish (Your choice)
2 Scyther (Jungle)
2 Tyrogue (Neo Destiny)
The idea is to shut off Trainers while your opponent is constantly having to deal with Confusion or Paralysis, with Snorlax just constantly thumping them.
Hello, I'm new here 
Great timing!! Before reading this, I actually made a fun deck using only gen 1 sets (Base - Gym Challenge).
Pokemon (21)
3 Growlithe
3 Arcanine
3 Voltorb (Base)
3 Electrode (Base)
2 Abra (Base)
2 Alakazam
1 Chansey
1 Zubat (Team Rocket)
1 Dark Golbat
1 Dratini (Base)
1 Dark Dragonair
Trainers (34)
4 Professor Oak
4 Defender
3 Pokemon Trader
2 Pokemon Center
2 Mr. Fuji
3 Computer Search
3 Sabrina's Gaze
2 Pokemon Breeder
2 Erika
1 Erika's Perfume
2 Rocket's Minefield Gym
2 Gust of Wind
1 Item Finder
2 Switch
1 Nightly Garbage Run
Energy (5)
4 Double Colorless
1 Rainbow
Brief strategy (playing by rules back then) - Arcanine is your main attacker. Attach Defenders to it and use DCE and Electrode for Take Down's energy cost. Remember that Defenders reduce self recoil damage as well. Alakazam and Chansey are for absorbing damage; and Centers and Fuji are for healing. Use Rainbow Energy in case you need to attack with something other than Arcanine. For a great combo, play Trainer cards in this order:
Minefield Gym -> Erika -> Erika's Perfume -> Gust of Wind
Feel free to play test and let me know what floats your boat.
And most importantly, HAVE FUN!!!
Great timing!! Before reading this, I actually made a fun deck using only gen 1 sets (Base - Gym Challenge).
Pokemon (21)
3 Growlithe
3 Arcanine
3 Voltorb (Base)
3 Electrode (Base)
2 Abra (Base)
2 Alakazam
1 Chansey
1 Zubat (Team Rocket)
1 Dark Golbat
1 Dratini (Base)
1 Dark Dragonair
Trainers (34)
4 Professor Oak
4 Defender
3 Pokemon Trader
2 Pokemon Center
2 Mr. Fuji
3 Computer Search
3 Sabrina's Gaze
2 Pokemon Breeder
2 Erika
1 Erika's Perfume
2 Rocket's Minefield Gym
2 Gust of Wind
1 Item Finder
2 Switch
1 Nightly Garbage Run
Energy (5)
4 Double Colorless
1 Rainbow
Brief strategy (playing by rules back then) - Arcanine is your main attacker. Attach Defenders to it and use DCE and Electrode for Take Down's energy cost. Remember that Defenders reduce self recoil damage as well. Alakazam and Chansey are for absorbing damage; and Centers and Fuji are for healing. Use Rainbow Energy in case you need to attack with something other than Arcanine. For a great combo, play Trainer cards in this order:
Minefield Gym -> Erika -> Erika's Perfume -> Gust of Wind
Feel free to play test and let me know what floats your boat.
And most importantly, HAVE FUN!!!
Hello, I'm new here
Great timing!! Before reading this, I actually made a fun deck using only gen 1 sets (Base - Gym Challenge).
Pokemon (21)
3 Growlithe
3 Arcanine
3 Voltorb (Base)
3 Electrode (Base)
2 Abra (Base)
2 Alakazam
1 Chansey
1 Zubat (Team Rocket)
1 Dark Golbat
1 Dratini (Base)
1 Dark Dragonair
Trainers (34)
4 Professor Oak
4 Defender
3 Pokemon Trader
2 Pokemon Center
2 Mr. Fuji
3 Computer Search
3 Sabrina's Gaze
2 Pokemon Breeder
2 Erika
1 Erika's Perfume
2 Rocket's Minefield Gym
2 Gust of Wind
1 Item Finder
2 Switch
1 Nightly Garbage Run
Energy (5)
4 Double Colorless
1 Rainbow
Brief strategy (playing by rules back then) - Arcanine is your main attacker. Attach Defenders to it and use DCE and Electrode for Take Down's energy cost. Remember that Defenders reduce self recoil damage as well. Alakazam and Chansey are for absorbing damage; and Centers and Fuji are for healing. Use Rainbow Energy in case you need to attack with something other than Arcanine. For a great combo, play Trainer cards in this order:
Minefield Gym -> Erika -> Erika's Perfume -> Gust of Wind
Feel free to play test and let me know what floats your boat.
And most importantly, HAVE FUN!!!
Not trying to spoil your fun but I've got some questions/comments. If you play this list because it features all of your favorite Pokémon and Trainer characters, you can disregard.
- How do you deal with Super Energy Removal (and if this was designed for actual play during this period, what about Energy Removal as well)?
- Why is Dark Golbat in this deck? If it is just for the Pokémon Power, why not run two copies of PlusPower and be better at taking OHKOs instead?
- Why is Dark Dragonair in this deck? If it is just for the Pokémon Power, why not run more draw, search and/or recycling cards to make it easier to get needed Evolutions, with the bonus of getting other cards as well?
- Rainbow Energy provides only a single unit of Energy so it will almost always need a Buzzapped Electrode to pay for something to attack. Is that really worth it?
- Perhaps more Item Finder would be a good idea, even if you have to cut a few other cards: some of your less used Trainers (for example) might get by with lower counts then and it helps you use some of your maxed out cards even more often (when needed).
- Trash Exchange plus Nightly Garbage Run allows you to potentially keep your deck going and going. You only net a single card from the deal, but at least you have the chance. If you could afford two copies of each your odds are better, but that is probably not necessary. A single Trash Exchange could do wonders, though.
- Less Sabrina's Gaze - you probably should run Imposter Oak's Revenge instead to combo with Erika as well as additional copies of Erika. If you really want something for when you've got too many cards in hand to toss with Professor Oak, a single copy of Sabrina's Gaze should suffice.
- Official Ruling with regards to your combo:
- I'd just streamline this down into a Turbo Arcanine deck; in some match-ups Arcanine will be OHKOed or Pokémon Powers will get shut off or you simply won't take enough damage to have made the Damage Swap combo better than Super Potion (yes, that means you need some basic Energy cards as discard fodder) or even Potion.
Hey!! Thank you for your input, I very much appreciate it.
1. I suppose I could add No Removal Gym or Lass.
2. Dark Golbat can damage ANY of your opponent's Pokemon with its power. Combined with Alakazam and Mr. Fuji, it can also absorb up to 40 damage when Benched.
3. That's a good idea. Perhaps I should cut out the Dragonair line entirely.
4. Rainbow Energy is for the rare occasion when I need to attack with Alakazam (with Buzzapped Electrode) or retreat Chansey. Actually, come to think of it, basic Psychic Energy is sufficient enough since I probably won't attack with Dark Golbat.
5. The only thing I hate about Item Finder is that you have to discard TWO cards to use it, which means I probably need more "recycling" cards.
6. Trash Exchange is too risky for my taste. You are not guaranteed anything. I think I will stick with NGR and Item Finder
7. Wow, Erika and Imposter Oak's Revenge look like a great combo; I didn't think of that. I will try it.
8. Thanks for correcting me with the official ruling; I actually didn't know that. Dang, that means my combo doesn't work >_< Nooo....
9. I can see Arcanine being OHKOed by Rain Dance decks. Would you consider a secondary attacker for such case? From what I remember, in the old days, Powers can be shut off by Muk or Goop Gas Attack. To counter Muk, I can add more Energy cards and not rely on Buzzap heavily, but for everything else I can do a cute puppy face!
Thank you again for your suggestion, it was very informative and helpful!!! You're awesome! I will revise the deck for fun.
Hope you really mean that because I'm taking it as an invitation to provide more.
Again, keep the deck so that you can enjoy it, but here are my thoughts on the matter if I were trying to make it competitive. Since I already used numbering earlier I'll add a "Numer Zero" for the first point:
0. Sadly I wouldn't actually run even Turbo Arcanine (let alone this build) when trying to be competitive, either here or in the proposed format of the author. The reason is that Haymaker with Super Energy Removal is still likely too strong, crowding out a lot of other decks that would have kept it, Raindance, Wigglytuff decks (and/or Muk decks - either Stage 1 can be blended with Haymaker for a solid beatdown deck). I tested Base Set through Fossil (and WotC Black Star Promo 15), less Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal . I stress this because Electrode (Base Set) is fantastic there - not broken but a common site in many decks.
With Super Energy Removal present we need to actually run the numbers and remember how Haymaker (and most other beatdown variants) will work, even without regular Energy Removal. The good news is that your opponent will have to have an Energy in play to discard in order to use Super Energy Removal. The bad news is that as Buzzap gives up a Prize when used, anytime your opponent discards a Buzzapped Electrode, it is like they scored a KO. You could OHKO your opponent every turn and they could effectively keep up the Prize tried through Super Energy Removal, only losing on the very last turn. The perhaps worse news is that beatdown decks however will more often than not score first turn KO against this deck (and many others).
Whether it is Erika's Jigglypuff or Base Set Hitmonchan or Base Set Electabuzz doing the attacking, all available versions of Abra, Dratini, Voltorb and Zubat max out at 40 HP except one Voltorb that has 50 and Voltorb is Fighting Weak, it might actually be the easiest of them to FTKO. This deck will have to field two Voltorb first turn if it wants to have even a single one survive to Evolve into Electrode and start attacking. Growlithe does better by having 60 HP, but a maxed out Jab from Hitmonchan (that is, with four PlusPower) or Pulled Punch with only two (courtesy of Erika's Jigglypuff) take it down. The latter is a Colorless Pokémon easily fueled by Double Colorless Energy - it can be worked into many other decks. This means you'll need two potential attackers and two copies of Voltorb, the exception being a first turn Chansey with a Double Colorless Energy having the option to attack via a second Double Colorless Energy attachment the next turn.
If your opponent runs a Defender (a TecH copy wasn't unheard of even in historical competitive play) there is a risk won't even score the OHKO against your typical Haymaker fair. This is important because Haymaker decks often ran a Scoop Up or two, and as I outlined earlier they could Super Energy Removal then use Scoop Up to have attacked the previous turn, avoid giving up a Prize, and strip two Energy cards (not just units of Energy) off your field.
The former. Lass hits your own hand and your deck seems no less reliant on Trainers than most others. Rocket's Minefield Gym requires a coin flip, which is why in a format so focused on taking OHKOs it didn't see that much competitive play.
You still haven't explained what makes Dark Golbat worth running.
That damage counter only matters if it reduces the amount of attacks required to score a KO or forces the opponent to waste valuable resources. If you save it to use after an attack leaves something with only 10 HP, there is the very real risk that your opponent will heal: Scoop Up was a common site in Basic focused beatdown decks (including Haymaker) while things like Raindance using Pokémon Center. Gust of Wind can help you damage something on the Bench. If you're worried about overkill damage, make it so you have more reliable less expensive attackers. Fossil Magmar is great if you were running basic Fire Energy, like I was suggesting (or at least strongly implying) earlier with my talk of Turbo Arcanine decks. If you like flips, Gust of Wind plus Digger can fake being a Dark Golbat for the purpose of damage counter placement.
40 damage is very little for the card pool. You should assume that most of the time an Active Dark Golbat is a OHKO. The main exception will be against Hitmonchan where the Resistance is nice. According to your own strategy though would you rather save Mr. Fuji for a Chansey or Arcanine (preferably with a DCE attached)? Plus again, match-ups where your opponent takes down Pokémon Powers (which includes more options for the thread's format) can cause problems.
Good; I strongly encourage that you do.
As a remind I'd cut Alakazam and Dark Golbat, make room for some Basic Fire Energy and then (even ignoring the post-Gym Challenge sets this custom format allows) add Fossil Magmar.
Or to make your deck faster and more reliable; even back before Nightly Garbage Run, people ran two, three or even four copies of Item Finder and just did their best to discard spare copies of other cards, including match-up specific counters that weren't needed because it wasn't that specific match-up.
6. Trash Exchange is too risky for my taste. You are not guaranteed anything. I think I will stick with NGR and Item Finder
...
*looks at original deck list*
Does not compute; you're already being risky, including running a card that can fail completely: Rocket's Minefield Gym requires a coin flip and only triggers on your opponent's turn - whether through the flip or being discarded it can pretty easily whiff. Instead of a boring-but-proven deck you're using something "for fun". XD The big thing is, if you find it "too risky" you (or your deck) are "doing it wrong". Most of the time your most valuable stuff will already have been played and/or you'll have means of reclaiming it if you do chuck it instead of your spare whatever. Do you have to run it? No, but I just want to make sure you know what you're turning down (and perhaps that we have yet another reason to reevaluate earlier choices.
).It was a pretty standard thing back in the day. In fact, when combined with a really basic Haymaker deck, The Rocket's Trap and Rocket's Sneak Attack it became its own thing, the "Trapper" deck, ripping through itself to either score a donk (win via FTKO) or still try for that FTKO while leaving an opponent with no hand before they even had a turn!
Yup. The Rule Compendiums can be your best friend at the same time they seem like a bitter foe.
True, but if your own deck ends up being viable, you should allow all those other rarely or never played cards from these sets to be potentially viable. I'll run through things to worry about from each set either for a OHKO or that have a problematic effect for your deck (OHKOs aren't your only concern). I'll leave out things I think are too unlikely: Water attackers that only make sense in Rain Dance (but aren't better than the traditional choices), stuff that I believe requires too many coin flips or copies of PlusPower (more than three flips or two PlusPower or more than one of each), etc. Part of the reason for the cap on PlusPower is because some turns you won't have a Defender, but most you will, so two PlusPower cancel out one Defender.
For example, in the Base Set you'd need to worry about:
- Arcanine (needs two PlusPower)
- Blastoise (already acknowledged)
- Chansey (needs two PlusPower)
- Charizard
- Dragonair (Hyper Beam)
- Ninetales (needs two PlusPower)
- Poliwhirl (Amnesia soft-lock; burn Trainers or Energy to get out of it)
- Poliwrath
- Porygon (changes Weakness on your Active)
- Zapdos
- Clefable (needs two PlusPower)
- Exeggutor (exception to "three 'heads'")
- Mr. Mime (stalling means more time for SER)
- Nidoqueen (needs four Nidoking in play or three and two PlusPower)
- Pidgeot (bounce effect is bad when you Buzzap an Electrode)
- Wigglytuff (needs two PlusPower)
- Vileplume (requires three "heads" on attack)
- Aerodactyl (and the thread's card pool allows for a T1 Aerodactyl)
- Articuno (already acknowledged)
- Ditto
- Golduck (discards your Energy)
- Moltres (for decking you out, not for damage)
- Muk (your build has so many Powers)
- Psyduck (shuts off Trainers!)
- Dark Alakazam (Porter)
- Dark Blastoise
- Dark Charizard
- Dark Gyarados
- Dark Machamp
- Dark Vaporeon (Whirlpool discards Energy)
- Dark Vileplume (shuts off Trainers)
- Dark Wartortle (Mirror Shell)
- Dark Weezing
- Porygon (Conversion 1)
- Blaine's Moltres (needs one PlusPower)
- Erika's Dragonair (again, shuffling away a Buzzapped Electrode...)
- Misty's Seadra (requires two "heads", but still does 30 before Weakness otherwise)
- Rocket's Hitmonchan (Crosscounter)
- Blaine's Magmar
Okay, I have to stop I've been at just this part of the post for over an hour. I didn't even finish up the stuff you were allowing (pre Neo sets) but we are actually talking pre-Skyridge, so there will be Energy accelerating cards you may not be aware of (though I tried to factor them in for my picks).
Run your own copies of Focus Band!
With your actual build, it will pretty much have to be all Chansey. I prefer running Scyther (Jungle) and either Electabuzz (Base Set) or Electabuzz (WotC Black Star Promo 2). The former has the issue of needing Rainbow Energy or a Buzzapped Electrode but hits harder and makes good use of Defender... but I still favor the easier to fuel, Quick Attacking promo (since you're mostly using it to exploit Weakness anyway). You could also run some of each. Fossil Magmar again helps - while still Water Weak it has a chance at preventing an attack from damaging it.
Note: No, Scyther doesn't use Swords Dance. It is an attack only for when you have nothing better to do first turn than attach a source of [G] Energy to Scyther. The vast majority of the time you should just be using Slash for 30 as two of that yields same amount of damage and doesn't get wrecked by Gust of Wind or Warp Point or anything else that resets Swords Dance.
Remember you lose all your Pokémon Powers: no Damage Swapping either! There are some other ways to shut them down as well as to punish them, like Pichu (Neo Genesis) and its Zzzap (30 to everything you've got with a Pokémon Power, just requires [C] and while its a 30 HP Basic it is protected by the Baby Rule).
Thank you again for your suggestion, it was very informative and helpful!!! You're awesome! I will revise the deck for fun.
Good luck!
Scizor (Aquapolis) didn't have to deal with Super Energy Removal.
Good call looking up past decks, but remember that anything you remember has to compete with cards from before (unless it is old enough) and after (unless it is "new" enough relative to the sets allowed) time in Modified. Haymaker, Raindance, Wigglytuff (Jungle) and Muk (Fossil) all saw play in Unlimited well past this period, in addition to being the top decks when their sets were new.
Release dates should also be considered: things weren't more or less standardized like they are now (using U.S. dates):
- Base Set: January 9, 1999
- Jungle: June 16, 1999
- Fossil: October 10, 1999
- Base Set 2: February 24, 2000
- Team Rocket: April 24, 2000
- Gym Heroes: August 14, 2000
- Gym Challenge: October 16, 2000
- Neo Genesis: December 16, 2000
- Neo Discovery: June 1, 2001
- Neo Revelation: September 21, 2001
- Neo Destiny: February 28, 2002
- Legendary Collection: May 24, 2002
- Expedtion: September 15, 2002
- Aquapolis: January 15, 2003
- Skyridge: May 12, 2003
- EX: Ruby/Sapphire: June 18, 2003
- EX: Sandstorm: September 17, 2003
- EX: Dragon: November 24, 2003
- EX: Team Magma VS Team Aqua: March 15, 2004
- EX: Hidden Legends: June 14, 2004
- EX: FireRed & LeafGreen: August 30, 2004
- EX: Team Rocket Returns: November 8, 2004
- EX: Deoxys: February 14, 2005
Players had about five months to mess around with just Base Set. Sure a lot of people just didn't have the cards, but what would become competitive players and/or top writers used text spoilers (scans were a luxury) and probably proxies to test (some even used translations from Japan). In fact, supposedly Haymaker was designed based on Japanese spoilers, which is why the deck is "Haymaker" and not "Special Punch" (the translator apparently got creative). Knowing now that the Japanese version of the card has the attack named "スペシャルパンチ" which in Romanji is "Supesharupanchi" I'm guessing that was another early myth.
Anyway I won't go into detail for each period, but as you can see sometimes we'd get sets faster than the modern pace, sometimes slower. As such some sets got more time for testing than others.
Hope you really mean that because I'm taking it as an invitation to provide more.
Again, keep the deck so that you can enjoy it, but here are my thoughts on the matter if I were trying to make it competitive. Since I already used numbering earlier I'll add a "Numer Zero" for the first point:
0. Sadly I wouldn't actually run even Turbo Arcanine (let alone this build) when trying to be competitive, either here or in the proposed format of the author. The reason is that Haymaker with Super Energy Removal is still likely too strong, crowding out a lot of other decks that would have kept it, Raindance, Wigglytuff decks (and/or Muk decks - either Stage 1 can be blended with Haymaker for a solid beatdown deck). I tested Base Set through Fossil (and WotC Black Star Promo 15), less Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal . I stress this because Electrode (Base Set) is fantastic there - not broken but a common site in many decks.
With Super Energy Removal present we need to actually run the numbers and remember how Haymaker (and most other beatdown variants) will work, even without regular Energy Removal. The good news is that your opponent will have to have an Energy in play to discard in order to use Super Energy Removal. The bad news is that as Buzzap gives up a Prize when used, anytime your opponent discards a Buzzapped Electrode, it is like they scored a KO. You could OHKO your opponent every turn and they could effectively keep up the Prize tried through Super Energy Removal, only losing on the very last turn. The perhaps worse news is that beatdown decks however will more often than not score first turn KO against this deck (and many others).
Whether it is Erika's Jigglypuff or Base Set Hitmonchan or Base Set Electabuzz doing the attacking, all available versions of Abra, Dratini, Voltorb and Zubat max out at 40 HP except one Voltorb that has 50 and Voltorb is Fighting Weak, it might actually be the easiest of them to FTKO. This deck will have to field two Voltorb first turn if it wants to have even a single one survive to Evolve into Electrode and start attacking. Growlithe does better by having 60 HP, but a maxed out Jab from Hitmonchan (that is, with four PlusPower) or Pulled Punch with only two (courtesy of Erika's Jigglypuff) take it down. The latter is a Colorless Pokémon easily fueled by Double Colorless Energy - it can be worked into many other decks. This means you'll need two potential attackers and two copies of Voltorb, the exception being a first turn Chansey with a Double Colorless Energy having the option to attack via a second Double Colorless Energy attachment the next turn.
If your opponent runs a Defender (a TecH copy wasn't unheard of even in historical competitive play) there is a risk won't even score the OHKO against your typical Haymaker fair. This is important because Haymaker decks often ran a Scoop Up or two, and as I outlined earlier they could Super Energy Removal then use Scoop Up to have attacked the previous turn, avoid giving up a Prize, and strip two Energy cards (not just units of Energy) off your field.
The former. Lass hits your own hand and your deck seems no less reliant on Trainers than most others. Rocket's Minefield Gym requires a coin flip, which is why in a format so focused on taking OHKOs it didn't see that much competitive play.
You still haven't explained what makes Dark Golbat worth running.
That damage counter only matters if it reduces the amount of attacks required to score a KO or forces the opponent to waste valuable resources. If you save it to use after an attack leaves something with only 10 HP, there is the very real risk that your opponent will heal: Scoop Up was a common site in Basic focused beatdown decks (including Haymaker) while things like Raindance using Pokémon Center. Gust of Wind can help you damage something on the Bench. If you're worried about overkill damage, make it so you have more reliable less expensive attackers. Fossil Magmar is great if you were running basic Fire Energy, like I was suggesting (or at least strongly implying) earlier with my talk of Turbo Arcanine decks. If you like flips, Gust of Wind plus Digger can fake being a Dark Golbat for the purpose of damage counter placement.
40 damage is very little for the card pool. You should assume that most of the time an Active Dark Golbat is a OHKO. The main exception will be against Hitmonchan where the Resistance is nice. According to your own strategy though would you rather save Mr. Fuji for a Chansey or Arcanine (preferably with a DCE attached)? Plus again, match-ups where your opponent takes down Pokémon Powers (which includes more options for the thread's format) can cause problems.
Good; I strongly encourage that you do.
As a remind I'd cut Alakazam and Dark Golbat, make room for some Basic Fire Energy and then (even ignoring the post-Gym Challenge sets this custom format allows) add Fossil Magmar.
Or to make your deck faster and more reliable; even back before Nightly Garbage Run, people ran two, three or even four copies of Item Finder and just did their best to discard spare copies of other cards, including match-up specific counters that weren't needed because it wasn't that specific match-up.
...
*looks at original deck list*
Does not compute; you're already being risky, including running a card that can fail completely: Rocket's Minefield Gym requires a coin flip and only triggers on your opponent's turn - whether through the flip or being discarded it can pretty easily whiff. Instead of a boring-but-proven deck you're using something "for fun". XD The big thing is, if you find it "too risky" you (or your deck) are "doing it wrong". Most of the time your most valuable stuff will already have been played and/or you'll have means of reclaiming it if you do chuck it instead of your spare whatever. Do you have to run it? No, but I just want to make sure you know what you're turning down (and perhaps that we have yet another reason to reevaluate earlier choices.
It was a pretty standard thing back in the day. In fact, when combined with a really basic Haymaker deck, The Rocket's Trap and Rocket's Sneak Attack it became its own thing, the "Trapper" deck, ripping through itself to either score a donk (win via FTKO) or still try for that FTKO while leaving an opponent with no hand before they even had a turn!
Yup. The Rule Compendiums can be your best friend at the same time they seem like a bitter foe.
True, but if your own deck ends up being viable, you should allow all those other rarely or never played cards from these sets to be potentially viable. I'll run through things to worry about from each set either for a OHKO or that have a problematic effect for your deck (OHKOs aren't your only concern). I'll leave out things I think are too unlikely: Water attackers that only make sense in Rain Dance (but aren't better than the traditional choices), stuff that I believe requires too many coin flips or copies of PlusPower (more than three flips or two PlusPower or more than one of each), etc. Part of the reason for the cap on PlusPower is because some turns you won't have a Defender, but most you will, so two PlusPower cancel out one Defender.
For example, in the Base Set you'd need to worry about:
For Jungle:
- Arcanine (needs two PlusPower)
- Blastoise (already acknowledged)
- Chansey (needs two PlusPower)
- Charizard
- Dragonair (Hyper Beam)
- Ninetales (needs two PlusPower)
- Poliwhirl (Amnesia soft-lock; burn Trainers or Energy to get out of it)
- Poliwrath
- Porygon (changes Weakness on your Active)
- Zapdos
For Fossil
- Clefable (needs two PlusPower)
- Exeggutor (exception to "three 'heads'")
- Mr. Mime (stalling means more time for SER)
- Nidoqueen (needs four Nidoking in play or three and two PlusPower)
- Pidgeot (bounce effect is bad when you Buzzap an Electrode)
- Wigglytuff (needs two PlusPower)
- Vileplume (requires three "heads" on attack)
For Team Rocket
- Aerodactyl (and the thread's card pool allows for a T1 Aerodactyl)
- Articuno (already acknowledged)
- Ditto
- Golduck (discards your Energy)
- Moltres (for decking you out, not for damage)
- Muk (your build has so many Powers)
- Psyduck (shuts off Trainers!)
For Gym Heroes
- Dark Alakazam (Porter)
- Dark Blastoise
- Dark Charizard
- Dark Gyarados
- Dark Machamp
- Dark Vaporeon (Whirlpool discards Energy)
- Dark Vileplume (shuts off Trainers)
- Dark Wartortle (Mirror Shell)
- Dark Weezing
- Porygon (Conversion 1)
...
- Blaine's Moltres (needs one PlusPower)
- Erika's Dragonair (again, shuffling away a Buzzapped Electrode...)
- Misty's Seadra (requires two "heads", but still does 30 before Weakness otherwise)
- Rocket's Hitmonchan (Crosscounter)
- Blaine's Magmar
Okay, I have to stop I've been at just this part of the post for over an hour. I didn't even finish up the stuff you were allowing (pre Neo sets) but we are actually talking pre-Skyridge, so there will be Energy accelerating cards you may not be aware of (though I tried to factor them in for my picks).
Run your own copies of Focus Band!
With your actual build, it will pretty much have to be all Chansey. I prefer running Scyther (Jungle) and either Electabuzz (Base Set) or Electabuzz (WotC Black Star Promo 2). The former has the issue of needing Rainbow Energy or a Buzzapped Electrode but hits harder and makes good use of Defender... but I still favor the easier to fuel, Quick Attacking promo (since you're mostly using it to exploit Weakness anyway). You could also run some of each. Fossil Magmar again helps - while still Water Weak it has a chance at preventing an attack from damaging it.
Note: No, Scyther doesn't use Swords Dance. It is an attack only for when you have nothing better to do first turn than attach a source of [G] Energy to Scyther. The vast majority of the time you should just be using Slash for 30 as two of that yields same amount of damage and doesn't get wrecked by Gust of Wind or Warp Point or anything else that resets Swords Dance.
Remember you lose all your Pokémon Powers: no Damage Swapping either! There are some other ways to shut them down as well as to punish them, like Pichu (Neo Genesis) and its Zzzap (30 to everything you've got with a Pokémon Power, just requires [C] and while its a 30 HP Basic it is protected by the Baby Rule).
Good luck!
On PokeBeach, I mean every word I say. Yes, I truly appreciate your feedback, Otaku!
0. I have tried other decks like Rain Dance, Wigglytuff, and Nidoqueen/Nidoking, but to me Arcanine seems to have a lot of variety and flexibility. If I can get Arcanine running, it can usually OHKO Hitmonchan, Electabuzz and Scyther. I've never seen Erika's Jigglypuff in old competitive decks; I can see it being a threat only in the early game. I should also add Magmar (Fossil) to my deck. And for Super Energy Removal....
1. Ok I will include No Removal Gym.
2. You raise some good points about Dark Golbat. I can see that Gust of Wind and PlusPower may be better options. But Dark Golbat (and Digger) can damage Pichu (Neo Genesis). If Powers are shut down, I can "sacrifice" Dark Golbat when I use Computer Search or Item Finder. Another thing is, I'm worried about having too many Trainers and not enough Pokemon, especially in my first hand of 7 cards.
4. Ok I've added basic Fire energy and Magmar (Fossil). I am keeping Nightly Garbage Run.
6. Strangely, I prefer Rocket's Minefield Gym over Trash Exchange; I think it's just personal preference for riskiness. But now that my original combo doesn't work, Minefield Gym has been replaced with No Removal Gym.
7. Wow, leaving your opponent with no cards in hand is crazy crazy!!
9. I don't often consider rarely or never played cards from each set, but that list is enormous! It's almost impossible to consider everything that can be a problem for Turbo Arcanine.
Nice options. I think I will add Electabuzz (Base) and Imposter Oak's Revenge. If you don't mind, I'd like to keep Alakazam because it works well with Chansey and Mr. Fuji. Even if its Power is shut off, Alakazam is an average attacker, on rare occasions.
Hah, I don't think anyone plays Scyther for Swords Dance. Yes, I remember it was also popular back in the day.
Thank you for everything!! Wait.... are you the same Otaku from Pojo? That's crazy!! I used to read your daily card reviews!! I haven't visited Pojo in a very long time... I feel old
Tangentially related, are there archives of staple/top tier decks from base to current sets?Scizor (Aquapolis) didn't have to deal with Super Energy Removal.
Good call looking up past decks, but remember that anything you remember has to compete with cards from before (unless it is old enough) and after (unless it is "new" enough relative to the sets allowed) time in Modified. Haymaker, Raindance, Wigglytuff (Jungle) and Muk (Fossil) all saw play in Unlimited well past this period, in addition to being the top decks when their sets were new.
Release dates should also be considered: things weren't more or less standardized like they are now (using U.S. dates):
What does this tell us? Other than I'm too obsessive for my own good?
- Base Set: January 9, 1999
- Jungle: June 16, 1999
- Fossil: October 10, 1999
- Base Set 2: February 24, 2000
- Team Rocket: April 24, 2000
- Gym Heroes: August 14, 2000
- Gym Challenge: October 16, 2000
- Neo Genesis: December 16, 2000
- Neo Discovery: June 1, 2001
- Neo Revelation: September 21, 2001
- Neo Destiny: February 28, 2002
- Legendary Collection: May 24, 2002
- Expedtion: September 15, 2002
- Aquapolis: January 15, 2003
- Skyridge: May 12, 2003
- EX: Ruby/Sapphire: June 18, 2003
- EX: Sandstorm: September 17, 2003
- EX: Dragon: November 24, 2003
- EX: Team Magma VS Team Aqua: March 15, 2004
- EX: Hidden Legends: June 14, 2004
- EX: FireRed & LeafGreen: August 30, 2004
- EX: Team Rocket Returns: November 8, 2004
- EX: Deoxys: February 14, 2005
Players had about five months to mess around with just Base Set. Sure a lot of people just didn't have the cards, but what would become competitive players and/or top writers used text spoilers (scans were a luxury) and probably proxies to test (some even used translations from Japan). In fact, supposedly Haymaker was designed based on Japanese spoilers, which is why the deck is "Haymaker" and not "Special Punch" (the translator apparently got creative). Knowing now that the Japanese version of the card has the attack named "スペシャルパンチ" which in Romanji is "Supesharupanchi" I'm guessing that was another early myth.
Anyway I won't go into detail for each period, but as you can see sometimes we'd get sets faster than the modern pace, sometimes slower. As such some sets got more time for testing than others.
There are some attempts at it but I am unaware of any standalone or truly thorough archive. Of course part of the problem is that there are just so many possibilities, especially when card supply/knowledge is hit or miss during a period. I literally had three full paragraphs and counting before I realized that I could elaborate on and on about this vary topic. I'll shorten it by pointing out that there is debate on where to draw the line at what is an "archetype" and what is a "variation", and how much competitive success should factor in. The best you can probably do is to check out Bulbapedia, maybe some of the older websites still going that might have articles stretching back that far. Even "professional" work needs to be taken with a grain of salt (or more): the demand for information was far greater than the supply of competent writers. I hate to say it but I promoted some decks I only later realized weren't that good and I certainly didn't have the best builds in mind (I thought I knew what I was doing at the time, mind you).
@bbb888
Okay. Sounds like you've got enough to test. Just remember that No Removal Gym is reduces the impact of Super Energy Removal a lot like a Kevlar vest reduces the damage done by small arms fire: it doesn't offer complete protection. Buzzapped Electrode are a tasty target and even if they weren't, an opponent that is about to discard a couple cards due to Professor Oak can thus easily afford to fuel added discard costs caused by No Removal Gym. If you weren't so heavily invested in Trainers to keep your deck running, we might have considered Chaos Gym as you're still going to be quite vulnerable to Gust of Wind. Oh, and Erika's Jigglypuff is still dangerous later on - even without support beyond a Double Colorless Energy it slams for a quick 40 damage. When you've got your set-up fully enabled, you're right, it won't be a big deal. When you are trying to Evolve an Abra? It is a real pain. Besides its main purpose is to prevent a "later".
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I don't necessarily mean full deck-lists, but core cards/strategies or even just a name.
Same thing though; even core strategies can be hard to come by due to the above; during the more staid formats major variants boiled down to relatively minor differences.