Benchsitters for M Ray Discussion Thread

Vom

Vom

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An argument popped up in a M Rayquaza-EX Deck Garage thread, and as it's not the best of places to discuss it (kinda off-topic), here is the thread: Should Altaria be included in M Rayquaza lists? Should Ninetales be included as well? Pros and cons? What do you think are good benchsitters for the deck?

Just a note, please don't mention Shaymin-EX. That's an obvious one.

So, to start:

I think Altaria should be included in the list, Lightning Weakness IS an issue. Meta is mostly Fighting, yes, but that doesn't stop people from running MegaMan and in some cases (very few though) Thundurus-EX; so I think at least a 1-1 should be included; as with Mr.Mime, Delta Evolution and the speed and power of the deck, chances are it stays in play.

For the argument 'They may Lysandre it':

If you see a fully loaded Genesect-EX in the bench (with G-Booster or without it) and you can OHKO, you go for it, not for the Virizion.

In MegaMan's case, they won't go for Altaria/Swablu if they know you can OHKO their EX after they KO your Stage 1, even with another Manetric in the bench. Especially knowing M Rayquaza can be powered up real quick.

It's much like against Plasma, you kill the Tundurus and not their Deoxys.

Besides, there are better Lysandre targets Prize-wise, like Shaymin-EX and Jirachi-EX if you decide to run it.
 
Question: Why can't weakness policy be run if the weakness is really a problem? If not, and there is space, Altaria could definitely be useful. I personally think Ninetales is best to keep, unless you have some type of advantage of getting benched into the discard.
 
bbninjas said:
Question: Why can't weakness policy be run if the weakness is really a problem?
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Because you need the Spirit Link. One of M-Ray's strengths is how fast it is. While you could run Tool Retrieval it would just clunk up the deck.
 
Robo Substitute? All you're looking to do is fill up spots, and should they manage to remove your stadium it shouldn't be too huge of a loss to discard them. I think a 2-2 line of Altaria would be ok, but I'd probably just go with a heavy Ninetales/Robo Sub set and focus on getting Rayquazas out.
 
Vom said:
Meta is mostly Fighting, yes, but that doesn't stop people from running MegaMan
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Really? No MegaMan decks made Top 32 at Florida Regionals, and no one played any variant of it for day 2. Clearly, fighting does have some type of impact on the format. I remember just a few months ago when people played MegaManny in everything (Aromatisse, Yveltal, Toad, Kyurem PLF, etc.), but now I haven't seen any variants in at least a month. In addition, its damage output is kind of low. This is kinda like Donphan at the moment; the deck can still perform well, but the fact that megas make 2HKOs into 3HKOs make the deck extremely hard to play to perfection.
I know the topic is about lightning here, so I'll put it back on topic. Possibly, when Roaring skies is released, Electric types will make a needed comeback. While I want to believe this strategy, I still think fighting will still be strong next format, which will be bad for any electric type strategist. And due to the fact that any Mega Rayquaza deck can be played with any energy types (even with mega turbo), why not tech for the bad matchup with Landorus EX or Lucario EX and call it a day? Do you need to put in Altaria into the deck, no. I feel that having Altaria would just clunk up the deck more rather then helping. And in every OTHER match hes virtually worthless, kind of like Abombasnow in VG; It was good for pyroar...and that was it. If your local meta has a lot of MegaMans then go for it, but I really think the space can be devoted to more important slots.

Also, good bench sitters IMHO for the deck would be Mr. Mime and Exeggcute. If your stadium is discarded, they are good pokemon to have to discard.
 
I want to say Slurpuff (Tasting) and Garbador - not in the same build, of course, but they're potential partners.

Slurpuff - It's a Stage 1 that provides more draw, which may allow you to draw into a Supporter or another benchsitter, and in the worst case scenario it's a candidate for discard as it's not a main attacker, depending on your build.

Garbador - Being able to shut down your opponent's field - and not having your main attacker affected - could be huge. It prevents Safeguarders from completely blocking you (allowing you to run a varied build and not dedicate a spot to taking out said Safeguader), shuts down Genesect EX's ability to Lysandre, and it's Stage 1 - not much deck space is dedicated to it at all.

Those are my two cents, at least, and when this card comes out I'm definitely trying Garbador with it.

Edit: It occurs to me you can't run Altaria with this idea; it depends on the person, I suppose.
 
totodile_it_down said:
Robo Substitute? All you're looking to do is fill up spots, and should they manage to remove your stadium it shouldn't be too huge of a loss to discard them.
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Could be useful, but doesn't help the deck at all.

Elbow said:
Vom said:
Meta is mostly Fighting, yes, but that doesn't stop people from running MegaMan
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Really? No MegaMan decks made Top 32 at Florida Regionals, and no one played any variant of it for day 2. I said it didn't stop people from playing it, not that it didn't stop it from topping. Besides, MegaMan isn't something you see in Expanded anyway. Clearly, fighting does have some type of impact on the format. I never said it didn't. In fact, I literally said it was the meta atm. I remember just a few months ago when people played MegaManny in everything (Aromatisse, Yveltal, Toad, Kyurem PLF, etc.), but now I haven't seen any variants in at least a month. In addition, its damage output is kind of low. This is kinda like Donphan at the moment; the deck can still perform well, but the fact that megas make 2HKOs into 3HKOs make the deck extremely hard to play to perfection. Agree.
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Bolded.

Elbow said:
I know the topic is about lightning here, so I'll put it back on topic. Possibly, when Roaring skies is released, Electric types will make a needed comeback. While I want to believe this strategy, I still think fighting will still be strong next format, which will be bad for any electric type strategist. And due to the fact that any Mega Rayquaza deck can be played with any energy types (even with mega turbo), why not tech for the bad matchup with Landorus EX or Lucario EX and call it a day? Do you need to put in Altaria into the deck, no. I feel that having Altaria would just clunk up the deck more rather then helping. And in every OTHER match he's virtually worthless, kind of like Abombasnow in VG; It was good for pyroar...and that was it. If your local meta has a lot of MegaMans then go for it, but I really think the space can be devoted to more important slots.

Also, good bench sitters IMHO for the deck would be Mr. Mime and Exeggcute. If your stadium is discarded, they are good pokemon to have to discard.
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This is completely true, or would be, if you wanted to attack with your [F] mons.
Your main attacker can OHKO without hitting for Weakness and for little set-up, so if there's another way around [L], why move away from your strategy to 2HKO with a [F]? Unless it's Terrakion LTR, I don't really see a point. Both the Altaria line and the [F] mons would take about the same space and Altaria has Delta Evolution, so I don't see how it would be clunky.
If you find it to be useless, then it becomes a nice thing to discard when Skyfield is discarded.

If you take into account the fact that next format Landy will be gone and so far the only decent/good low-Energy [F] attacker is Lucario-EX (which you don't want to attack with btw, damage output too low) Altaria seems like a better option against [L].
 
When it comes to Bench sitters, I'm thinking...

- Shaymin-EX
- Jirachi-EX
- Ninetales
- Mr Mime
- Aromatisse w/ Max Potion
- Jynx
- Golbat/Crobat

There are probably 100+ ideas, though. I just quickly listed a few that came to my head.
 
There's also Dedenne, Kangaskhan, and the new Skarmory. All of them have CFF which helps fill up the bench. They also have decent secondary attacks. They are technically bench sitters even if they don't have any abilities, but they also get other bench sitters (like mr Mime) out.
 
GadgetJax said:
- Golbat/Crobat
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Okay, so I thought the exact same thing for a minute, but then it slowly dawned on me that space is going to be crunched in this deck regardless, and I don't know what you'd want to whittle down for OHKOs aside from a few choice EXes.
 
Vom said:
totodile_it_down said:
Robo Substitute? All you're looking to do is fill up spots, and should they manage to remove your stadium it shouldn't be too huge of a loss to discard them.
Click to expand...

Could be useful, but doesn't help the deck at all.


It isn't helpful to max out the amount of damage Rayquaza EX can do as quickly and efficiently as possible?
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Quickly yes, efficiently I wouldn't say so. It doesn't give the deck anything it needs/benefits it, besides damage. My point is that there are plenty of other options that do something besides sitting on the bench.
 
Vom said:
Quickly yes, efficiently I wouldn't say so. It doesn't give the deck anything it needs/benefits it, besides damage. My point is that there are plenty of other options that do something besides sitting on the bench.
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Of course, the + side with having Robo Sub is that you can find them with Korrina/Skyla and this new Trainer's Mail item card. It also doesn't give prizes, which may be important...
 
bbninjas said:
Of course, the + side with having Robo Sub is that you can find them with Korrina/Skyla You can find anything with those. and this new Trainer's Mail item card. I guess so, but finding an Ultra Ball/Repeat Ball would get you something too. It also doesn't give prizes, which may be important...Refer to the OP for this :p
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Bolded, also I'm not COMPLETELY against Robo Sub, just saying there are better options. Seems like a nice filler/1-of.
 
I am not sure that the meta will remain the same once people figured out how to use some of the better Mega evolution cards. Manectric Ex is an issue since the basic and the evolution can ohko Rayquaza and the deck is at least as fast. For that reason I like Altaria. It can also be searched out with Winona and delta evolution ensures that it can be evolved in one turn. Furthermore it costs no more than two additional card slots. Shaymin Ex is another important part but it is also the weak spot of the deck since it is the prime target for Lysandre. For that reason i am not entirely sold on Ninetales at the moment but we will need to figure out how to recycle cards in a M Rayquaza deck in a fast and consistant manner. if we can do so we could also afford to loose benched Pokémon to a stadium replacement. In fact it could even help the Rayquaza deck if we can find out how to repeatedly cycle through the deck fast and consistently.
 
As an addition to the already mentioned:

4 Exeggcutes, wich can be grabbed turn 1 with battle compressors and be placed right into the bench. Throw Mr. Mime into the mix, you protect them significantly. If Mr. Mime gets worked around and one egg gets knocked out, it's comming back next turn. If Skyfield gets discarded, discard the excess Exeggcutes, then place them back on the bench right when another Skyfield comes into play.

Doing this also adds a lot of versatility to the deck, meaning running 4 Ultra Balls wouldn't be painful. Also makes the low-support build with 4 VS Seeker possible due to the high count of compressors and Shaymins.

Against Toads: this build would be heavily item dependant, so you might consider running Grass Energy as the basic type and Gogoat XY + Virizion EX. Gogoat can 1-hit Toads and both the Safeguarders; it takes roughly the same time and resources to power up compared to a M Ray, assuming no Mega Turbo is used.
EDIT: Basic alternatives for Gogoat can be Genesect from LT or any other grass basic that can hit for 90 or more.
 
Good call with the Exeggcutes. If you're already running them, how about Exeggutor to hit Toad? It's not as reliable of a OHKO, but half of it's already in your deck, so it'd save some space. Throw Fliptini in as another bench sitter, and Exeggutor will be OHKO'ing Toad more often than not.
 
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