Discussion Best Decks Post Rotation(Assuming BKT on)

[TheDude133]

Zoroark GX can also be mixed with regular Zoroark BREAK assuming that it doesn't rotate and there's crazy synergy between Mallow/ Zoroark GX/ and Darkrai GX. The only thing I see missing from that deck is a good way to inflict status so as to make proper use of Darkrai's GX attack.

I honestly don't agree with your A Muk GX assessment. With a strong line of Salazzle, cards like Devo/ Accerola (Po Town)/ and Super Scoop Up I really don't think consistency is an issue, especially considering Brigette. Hell, A Grimer from BUS can put another Grimer on the bench, so it's pretty hard to have a non-start. DCC isn't really a high attack cost, and it's got a free GX attack that is perfect for stalling and forcing out a switching option. I don't understand how it's got damage issues... It's hitting 1hkos on most of the meta with Salazzle alone. Teching in Raichu for Metagross and Decidueye will easily put you over the top. It's retreat costs aren't really concerning to me considering Guzma/ Olypmia/ Escape Rope/ Switch/ Float Stone are all still in the format and will probably remain there post rotation. One thing that won't stick arond but that will play off that high retreat cost very well though is Heavy Ball.

Post rotation will be slower anyway. I see two main deck types. The fast T2 attackers that get two shots on everything but are weak to prize denial, and the big, slow, one shot machines.

In Zoroark Break, you would rather go into the break 9/10 times because Foul Play is jacked. The problem with Zoro GX is that its damage is too low. There's no reason to go into GX instead of break. And while there is synergy with Darkrai GX, you're putting a card on your bench that won't do anything. Even if you attack with it, you're not doing any real damage. You can't use his GX attack, and there's no point in slowing down Zoroark Break just to add techs that aren't going to help your win condition. And Zoroark GX as it's own deck is just too weak.

Muk has consistency issues. For example, in order to get the status every turn, you need to have the Devo or evolve another Salazzle. At 110 hp, Salazzle is an easy pick, you have no way to search it outside of ultra ball, which you have four of. Yes, Grimer search Grimer is a thing, but again, retreat cost. You can get Guzma stalled so easy. Play escape rope, play switch, play float stone, that's just more cards that slow you down and hurt you against Garb. And as far as the OHKO on things, the meta is shifting to 210-250 HP Pokemon. Unless you're going for Tapu-Lele GX, what are you OHKOing? Or another status in, cool, more consistency issues. You have 60 cards to fit two+ evolution lines, energy, draw support, and resetters for your statusers. There's a reason status decks aren't meta, they're to clunky and slow to keep up.

 

[CaptZero]

In Zoroark Break, you would rather go into the break 9/10 times because Foul Play is jacked. The problem with Zoro GX is that its damage is too low. There's no reason to go into GX instead of break. And while there is synergy with Darkrai GX, you're putting a card on your bench that won't do anything. Even if you attack with it, you're not doing any real damage. You can't use his GX attack, and there's no point in slowing down Zoroark Break just to add techs that aren't going to help your win condition. And Zoroark GX as it's own deck is just too weak.

Being able to discard a card from your hand at any point to draw two is well worth the cost of a space on your bench and a space in your deck, especially when it runs off the same evolutionary line IMO.

Muk has consistency issues. For example, in order to get the status every turn, you need to have the Devo or evolve another Salazzle. At 110 hp, Salazzle is an easy pick, you have no way to search it outside of ultra ball, which you have four of. Yes, Grimer search Grimer is a thing, but again, retreat cost. You can get Guzma stalled so easy. Play escape rope, play switch, play float stone, that's just more cards that slow you down and hurt you against Garb. And as far as the OHKO on things, the meta is shifting to 210-250 HP Pokemon. Unless you're going for Tapu-Lele GX, what are you OHKOing? Or another status in, cool, more consistency issues. You have 60 cards to fit two+ evolution lines, energy, draw support, and resetters for your statusers. There's a reason status decks aren't meta, they're to clunky and slow to keep up.

But it's not just Devo... It's Accerola... It's Super Scoop Up... which I pointed out already so you really have no excuse not to mention those cards. Po Town is also prefect for setting up Drampa GX as a secondary attacker.

I hate when people mention getting Guzma stalled... just use your own Guzma... Both players have access to Guzma. Or Olympia. The point was not to fill your deck with those options... just that there are plenty of them in the meta and right now, and more are coming.

... uh... you do realize Muk hits 210 easily right?? 10+70+70 for double status. 150... plus 20 for burn, 10 for poison. 180. Add Choice Band. 210 against GXs and EXs. Add a 1-1 or 2-2 line of Raichu for the 250 'mon, or don't and accept those as hard MUs, and that goes up to 280 damage. Muk's output is insane.

No... The reason why status isn't meta is because there haven't been any good supporting cards for it in standard for awhile. And even then Raticate BREAK/ Aridados is a thing, albeit not really a "meta" deck, but a mildly notable rogue deck at the very least.

The meta is moving away from pure speed. It's time to think about efficient strategies and not to view everything in terms of how fast you can get in going. The majority of decks that can play fast will be lower damage, like Darkrai and Tapu Koko GX.

 

[TheDude133]

Being able to discard a card from your hand at any point to draw two is well worth the cost of a space on your bench and a space in your deck, especially when it runs off the same evolutionary line IMO.

You are missing my point. It can't be its own deck in this format because its too weak. You can put it in Zoro Break as a 1 of speed tech, but it's not needed.

But it's not just Devo... It's Accerola... It's Super Scoop Up... which I pointed out already so you really have no excuse not to mention those cards. Po Town is also prefect for setting up Drampa GX as a secondary attacker.

I hate when people mention getting Guzma stalled... just use your own Guzma... Both players have access to Guzma. Or Olympia. The point was not to fill your deck with those options... just that there are plenty of them in the meta and right now, and more are coming.

... uh... you do realize Muk hits 210 easily right?? 10+70+70 for double status. 150... plus 20 for burn, 10 for poison. 180. Add Choice Band. 210 against GXs and EXs. Add a 1-1 or 2-2 line of Raichu for the 250 'mon, or don't and accept those as hard MUs, and that goes up to 280 damage. Muk's output is insane.

No... The reason why status isn't meta is because there haven't been any good supporting cards for it in standard for awhile. And even then Raticate BREAK/ Aridados is a thing, albeit not really a "meta" deck, but a mildly notable rogue deck at the very least.

The meta is moving away from pure speed. It's time to think about efficient strategies and not to view everything in terms of how fast you can get in going. The majority of decks that can play fast will be lower damage, like Darkrai and Tapu Koko GX.

Again, as i've said before, you have 60 card, to make your deck competitive enough to stand up to Garbodor, Solgaleo GX, Metagross GX, Greninja Break, Zoroark Break, Volcanian, and Turbo Dark. Muk GX is not a competitive deck. If you put Drampa EX in, that's another card to clog the machine.

Your pokemon line just off this convo is already close to 16-18 cards. Couple that with 8 Dark and 4 DCE that's 30 cards gone. New Supporter line is about 12 deep. That's 18 cards for Trainers. You need 4 Ultra Ball, 4 Devo, 4 Choice Band, that's 12, you have six left. so your choices now are add raichu line, SSU, Switch enablers, Rescue Stretcher/Super Rod, Field Blower or Po Town. You don't have enough room.

Status Decks have always been rogue, but never meta, because they aren't consistent enough. Raticate/Ariados, Sceptile/Ariados, Machamp/Ariados all status decks, all could either OHKO or 2HKO pokemon with 180 hp, none ever made a meta list because they aren't consistant. And those didn't even need Devo AND had Shaymin EX. And your Muk OHKO depends on your Opponent flipping tails. And out of 100 games, you get that 50 times.

And you understand Guzma Stall is going to be Huge considering VS Seeker is now gone right? So you either play 3-4 or you will get guzma stalled.

 

[CaptZero]

You are missing my point. It can't be its own deck in this format because its too weak. You can put it in Zoro Break as a 1 of speed tech, but it's not needed.

I'm not missing your point... you're making an assumption about what I'm trying to suggest about Zoroark's usefulness... I don't assume it can be it's own deck, although I 100% disagree that 120 damage for only a DCE is weak, but that's besides the point. It's an incredible support pokemon with SOME attacking potential, should you need it. Zoroark Break... is not just a one of... Most Zoroark/ Drampa decks run 2 because you add health and lose nothing.

Again, as i've said before, you have 60 card, to make your deck competitive enough to stand up to Garbodor, Solgaleo GX, Metagross GX, Greninja Break, Zoroark Break, Volcanian, and Turbo Dark. Muk GX is not a competitive deck. If you put Drampa EX in, that's another card to clog the machine.

No it's not... a secondary attacker isn't a clog in the machine... And as I've said... you can forgo some things to make the deck less clunky, and give up certain MUs.

Your pokemon line just off this convo is already close to 16-18 cards. Couple that with 8 Dark and 4 DCE that's 30 cards gone. New Supporter line is about 12 deep. That's 18 cards for Trainers. You need 4 Ultra Ball, 4 Devo, 4 Choice Band, that's 12, you have six left. so your choices now are add raichu line, SSU, Switch enablers, Rescue Stretcher/Super Rod, Field Blower or Po Town. You don't have enough room.

Metagross runs around 16 Pokemon... and that deck has to use Rare Candy and loses super hard to Hex chain and item lock. I don't see where the major difference is.

Status Decks have always been rogue, but never meta, because they aren't consistent enough. Raticate/Ariados, Sceptile/Ariados, Machamp/Ariados all status decks, all could either OHKO or 2HKO pokemon with 180 hp, none ever made a meta list because they aren't consistant. And those didn't even need Devo AND had Shaymin EX. And your Muk OHKO depends on your Opponent flipping tails. And out of 100 games, you get that 50 times.

First of all I'll tackle the flipping tails bit... you're wrong. Burn does damage first now. It will always do 20 damage between turns. Hypno-toxic Laser Draglge/ Gengar EX weren't rouge. Once again... not just Devo. Po Town/ Accerola allows you to pick up right after getting off the status. Same with Scoop Up. Devo spray is ONE option that you can use. And once again I present to you... BATS.

And you understand Guzma Stall is going to be Huge considering VS Seeker is now gone right? So you either play 3-4 or you will get guzma stalled.

Okay lets do some MATH. You play Guzma to get my Muk without energy out to stall. Firts of all I have a FREE ATTACK that can help me stall in return. Second, assuming we BOTH HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF GUZMA I will ALWAYS have the upper hand in the Guzma war if you play your Guzma first. And once against that's completely ignoring all other switching tech options.

 

[Moist Socks]

metagross and zoroark gx/ break look to be strong contenders imo

 

[arturomod]

Volcanion, Ninetales and Zoroark

 

[TorchHG]

I have to say, it's really amazing to see what difference a BKT-on and BKP-on (or even a FAC-on, but that definitely seems like too many sets would be cut) would mean for the game. For instance,

If the format is BKT-on, the main cards we lose are Lysandre and Escape Rope (replaced by Guzma), VS Seeker, Trainer's mail, and Level Ball.
Now, some weird cards we lose include Dive Ball, Maxie's and Archie's, Acro Bike, Repeat Ball, and Mega Turbo.

For a BKP-on format, we lose Super Rod, Float Stone, Judge, Professor's Letter.

For GEN-on/FAC-on, we lose Fighting Fury belt, Max Elixir, Puzzle of Time, Delinquent, and... Professor Sycamore.

Now, those last two situations is something this thread isn't covering, but the last situation means the meta comes to an instant halt and decks will have to be built around searching out cards and not be blistering-fast discard decks.

Now, for relevancy for the thread, the big tools we lose are VS Seeker and Trainer's Mail. This means that even if Sycamore is allowed, he won't be played in many decks because he would end up discarding too many tools for later in the game. Aside from that, though, the staple items people will run in their decks are Ultra Ball, Field Blower, Float Stone, and Choice Band. This will total (with current numbers) 10 items. In their entire deck. Playing around Garbodor means that you conservatively use Ultra Balls and attaching only when necessary. With some of the other supporters that came out in SUM-on, NONE of them are aggressive, discard-style supporters, and will shuffle all of your tools into your deck. Garbodor might be rather short-lived, at least until rotation happens, but that also means that Stage-2 decks might start playing 4-4-4 lines and use less rare-candies to try to subdue Garbodor's power.

This is a lot of talk about Garbodor, what about other decks affected? Well, I think we'll just start seeing a lot of other decks until a dominant one pops out and defines the format, and that's how decks will be tuned.

What do I think will be a dominant deck? Honestly, I think that Lapras-GX will be a strong deck, even though Manaphy will be going away. There's still so many tools it can use to replace Manaphy, like Float Stone, Guzma, Switch, and Ranger. It hits large numbers quickly, with Aqua Patch, and Collect helps sift through the deck, granted not as well as Sylveon-GX does.