Discussion Best XY-on Fire EX

[Scubasage]

So, basically, I'm building a fire deck since everyone at locals seems to be running either Vespiqueen, Vileplume or Metal decks.

Now, Fire has some solid support in Blacksmith, Fiery Torch, Delphox, both Pyroars and Scorched Earth, but its EX attackers all seem a little less than ideal. I only have room for a pair of EXs, and I can't decide which would be best. I counted out Camerupt EX immediately, since realistically I'd need to blacksmith pretty much 4 times to knock out 6 pokemon (and that's if I'm attaching a fire energy from hand every turn too).

So I made a little pro and con list for each one that's left.

Delphox EX
-Pros:
--First attack is 20 + opponent is confused for only F.
--Second attack reveals their hand and if they have an energy, OHKOs weak or 2HKOs everything else

-Cons:
--170 HP
--Only 80 base damage, so even with a Muscle Band, could potentially fail to 2HKO megas if they have no energy in hand


Blaziken EX
-Pros:
--First attack accelerates energy onto himself from discard, including DCE and does 30
--Second attack is a range from 100-140 (realistically), with an average of 120, OHKOs weak or 2HKO everything else

-Cons:
--170 HP
--First attack requires FC, so outside of Blacksmith, no way to attack immediately
--Second attack is reliant on coin flips


Charizard EX (Stoke)
-Pros:
--180 HP
--First attack is quick at F, and sets up for the next attack
--Second attack is base 120, so OHKOs weak or 2HKO everything else

-Cons:
--First attack is reliant on a coin flip
--Second attack requires an energy discard, so reattachment every turn is necessary, requiring more energy in the list and potentially a pair of energy retrieval


Charizard EX (Wing Attack)
-Pros:
--180 HP
--First attack does 60, which is enough to OHKO Vespiqueen without needing 4 energy
--Second attack does 170 with Muscle Band, which OHKOs weaker EXs.

-Cons:
--First attack requires CCC which means Blacksmith is needed to attack immediately
--Second attack can't be used two turns in a row

Honestly...its really tough. All 4 seem pretty even. What do you guys think?

 

[bbninjas]

How about Camerupt-EX/Magma Camerupt? Those two have nice synergy and are perhaps the most viable fire deck in format atm.

 

[Chewy]

Have you considered AT Entei AOR? Its a great card if you need to hit something hard.

 

[Ivy_Profen]

I will say right now camerupt/camerupt is pretty strong coming up. With all the grass decks.

 

[asdjklghty]

Entei non-Ancient Trait is pretty good. 20+20 more for each of your opponent's Benched Pokemon seems pretty powerful. 4 benched Pokemon means 120 damage times 2 is 240!

 

[Pinecone]

The fire EX are all pretty mediocre. If you want a fire deck, Entei (both) may be worth exploring or Flareon with a hard hitting Stage 1, which I think is the strongest option.

 

[Scubasage]

Camerupt EX requires too much deck space. I should probably clarify: This isn't a deck built around a Fire EX, this is a Fire deck that I want a big, bulky, hard hitting attacker in, so an EX is a natural choice for that.

I'm already running Entei, yeah, both versions are good.

I don't like Flareon as then if they knock it out, all the Fire support is useless until you set up another, or if you're running almost pure Fire, then it's just a bad stage 1,

 

[crann777]

Camerupt EX requires too much deck space. I should probably clarify: This isn't a deck built around a Fire EX, this is a Fire deck that I want a big, bulky, hard hitting attacker in, so an EX is a natural choice for that.

Then I think you're SOL in that regard. The current fire EXs all kinda suck, barring Camerupt which requires you to build a deck around it.

If you're running DCE in the deck, then try running Lugia EX or Seismitoad EX as a secondary. Outrage Reshiram would also work in Expanded.

 

[Vom]

You could try Combustion Blast Charizard-EX, but with all these Megas and Primals it's not that good :/

 

[Shadius]

First post, but hopefully it will end up being helpful. As one of the early posters eluded to, Luigi would probably be your best bet in terms of a bulky attacker. You are much better off going with that, and then a utility EX like Toad, you can even justify Malamar since energy attachment is easy with fire. The most you can really hope is that in future sets (before next rotation) there will be a good Fire EX, which is completely reasonable, until then Generic looks to be the best route.

 

[Draaka]

Lugia, or maybe a aegislash could be useful if you need stall power.

 

[Jessie Mulay]

I run Delphox EX and Charizard EX(Combustion Blast) and M Charizard Y in my fire one.

Delphox EX is really fun to play. While not the best I don't think it's the worst. Blacksmith + Battle Compressor + DCE turn 1 and you're already setup.

Blaziken seems really fun as well

 

[Vaultboy91]

Will Emboar-EX be released in the US? I think Emboar-EX is pretty decent. Its basically like Dialga-EX, but you can use Blacksmith and Burning Energy to replace Bronzong. You could add different support Pokemon like Pyroar PHF or even Bats to increase its damage output.

 

[CruelBear]

Only other thing you can do is wait for Mega Houndoom EX and Burning Energy.

 

[Yo-yos]

2 things that is an issue with what you just said, 1. I play vespiquen and I put 2 vaporeon into my deck, and vespiquens prize trade off with a fire based EX attacker based deck does not add up, you may ko my vespiquen but you just added 20 more dmg to the next vespiquen I plan on attacking with whats to say they don't do the same. 2. why not just create a strategy that out plays there decks.

Idk, I play groudon and manectric, each with various respective techs that don't do much on there own but with those 2 EX's create alot of solid matchups and I don't see an issue against any of the three decks you mentioned as my meta is also flooded with the same decks you just mentioned. It's all about created a strategy that out plays your opponents, type is good to have but at times not always the most effective idea.

 

[Scubasage]

Will Emboar-EX be released in the US? I think Emboar-EX is pretty decent. Its basically like Dialga-EX, but you can use Blacksmith and Burning Energy to replace Bronzong. You could add different support Pokemon like Pyroar PHF or even Bats to increase its damage output.

The issue I have with Emboar EX (not counting us not knowing when we'll be getting it), is that, like Camerupt EX, it requires pretty much constant Blacksmith use every turn, as well as not being able to OHKO most regular EXs since it's damage output stops at 170. Finally, in the event you don't have a Blacksmith, you have to use his terrible first attack.

Only other thing you can do is wait for Mega Houndoom EX and Burning Energy.

Except M Houndoom EX is terrible. It needs Muscle Band to hit 180 but doesn't have Theta Double, so you're either giving up a turn of attacking to get the Muscle Band on and Mega Evolve (which defeats the purpose of being a quick attacking Mega, by being able to attack with only 2 attachments), or you don't OHKO any relevant EX at all.

2 things that is an issue with what you just said, 1. I play vespiquen and I put 2 vaporeon into my deck, and vespiquens prize trade off with a fire based EX attacker based deck does not add up, you may ko my vespiquen but you just added 20 more dmg to the next vespiquen I plan on attacking with whats to say they don't do the same. 2. why not just create a strategy that out plays there decks.

Literally every Stage 1 Eeveelution deck at the various locals around my city don't run Vaporeon because nobody is running Fire. Besides that, I have 2 slots that I'm considering using EXs for, it's not an EX deck. The vast majority of pokemon and attackers aren't EX, which puts the prize trade back to even.

Idk, I play groudon and manectric, each with various respective techs that don't do much on there own but with those 2 EX's create alot of solid matchups and I don't see an issue against any of the three decks you mentioned as my meta is also flooded with the same decks you just mentioned. It's all about created a strategy that out plays your opponents, type is good to have but at times not always the most effective idea.

At first I got the impression you were playing Groudon/Manectric and I was like "I don't like generic-good-stuff.dek" but then I realized you're talking about two separate decks you run. I mean, yeah, obviously get a good strategy as your deck, but many, many strategies can be considered good, so cater it to your playstyle and meta. For example, my meta is extremely weak to Fire, and Fire can be a good deck regardless of the specific meta calls. So I've decided to build Fire.

 

[homeofmew]

My Opinions:
Camerupt EX/ Magmas's Camerupt: I saw this deck play at Kansas city regionals it's not something that's going to be super popular but can dish out a ton of damage. Deiscard energies and easily get them back.

Entei AOR/ Silver Bangle (expanded) : With Fiery torch and Ultra balling Energies away or Scorch earth with black smith can result in mass amounts of damage turn one.

 

[Yo-yos]

I don't have a playstyle, that is literally an excuse. Building a good decklist is half the battle, especially something that is good and extremely playable in your format regardless of type or matchup.

As for the vespiquen matchup, I'm sorry you play against people who don't know how to tech vespiquen properly. For instance a friend of mine in the area plays vespiquen heavily, he first considered only the use of flareon and jolteon, we talked about a hypothetical fire matchup and came to the conclusions that with 4 dce and a blacksmith the prize trade off was crazy good in vespiquens matchup due to two things, no viable fire megas atm and non megas seem to have absolutely no threat against vespiquen what so ever, though the concensus was to play vaporeon in just due to the board presence and extra card for discard. Yeah sure you can technically play a bunch of fire cards but since vespiquen is essentially a glass cannon they are expecting it to go down, also the prize trade off is more on weather or not they have lysandre in hand to eliminate benched ex's like shaymin. But a well timed hex maniac or 2 and 3 e hammer in my experience wins the matchup due to 1 thing, what they have in there deck.

I'm just saying that there are better decks to choose from over fire that run better support, are much more consistent and have solid matchups against vespiquen, vileplume, steel and the rest of the meta.

 

[Scubasage]

I don't have a playstyle, that is literally an excuse.

...An excuse for what, exactly?

Building a good decklist is half the battle, especially something that is good and extremely playable in your format regardless of type or matchup.

...So you're saying exactly what I was saying.

As for the vespiquen matchup, I'm sorry you play against people who don't know how to tech vespiquen properly. For instance a friend of mine in the area plays vespiquen heavily, he first considered only the use of flareon and jolteon, we talked about a hypothetical fire matchup and came to the conclusions that with 4 dce and a blacksmith the prize trade off was crazy good in vespiquens matchup due to two things, no viable fire megas atm and non megas seem to have absolutely no threat against vespiquen what so ever, though the concensus was to play vaporeon in just due to the board presence and extra card for discard. Yeah sure you can technically play a bunch of fire cards but since vespiquen is essentially a glass cannon they are expecting it to go down, also the prize trade off is more on weather or not they have lysandre in hand to eliminate benched ex's like shaymin. But a well timed hex maniac or 2 and 3 e hammer in my experience wins the matchup due to 1 thing, what they have in there deck.

Now you're talking about Vespiqueen in general, and not Vespiqueen against Fire. I'm not running Shaymin-EXs for you to snipe off with Lysandre. Between Delphox, Fiery Torch and Scorched Earth, my hand size stays too high to use Shaymin-EX. E-Hammer is pretty useless against Fire, since Blacksmith exists, so they don't depend on DCE the way most other decks do. Hex Maniac is alright to slow down Fire but it's not like you're playing against Aegislash EX where Hex Maniac decides the game.

I'm just saying that there are better decks to choose from over fire that run better support, are much more consistent and have solid matchups against vespiquen, vileplume, steel and the rest of the meta.

You're heavily underestimating Fire in general as a deck, for one. For another, it gets even better specifically because of my meta being very weak to Fire, which drives the win rate up and thereby making it a better choice than generic good decks. If the meta changes to be hostile to Fire (say, everyone starts running Seismitoad/Bats), then yes, something else might be better, but right now that's not the case.

 

[CruelBear]

Okay, now that I see you're running Delphox, this makes it a bit easier. I would personally choose Blaziken EX every time. Its first attack does enough to OHKO Vespiquen with a Muscle Band, and the second attack will reliably do enough damage to OHKO any grass weak Pokemon, as well as Shaymin EX. Since you're using Delphox, you should be able to use Blacksmith very often mid-late game, and his first attack becomes very doable in one turn. Also, if you're not already, be sure to run Miltank with a high count of Muscle Band. Being able to do 100 with one energy, while using Blacksmith on other Pokemon, is very powerful.

I've been running Delphox XY since Flashfire, so if you need any help getting it to run smoothly, don't be afraid to ask.