Discussion Best XY-on Fire EX
- Thread starter Scubasage
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Pure fire decks are just going to have a hard time against Vespiquen. True it hits weakness, but what's the point? Any meta decks can pretty much OHKO Vespiquen. Vespiquen will mostly out speed most pure fire based decks just by a single attachment. I personally feel like Blaziken-EX is the best EX to handle it in my opinion in standard format. It can more easily charge up and simply OHKO Vespiquen with a Blacksmith and Muscle Band. Most fire types require way to much energy for mediocre attacks. As for expanded you have a little more leeway. The main problem is that you're trading 2 prizes for 1. With such high energy costs, that doesn't really fare well for you and you'd need to ensure you had enough time to keep Vespiquen from overrunning you.
SilentSilver@ thank you for making my point realized, even if you choose a bunch of fire EX's the prize trade off is never enough, how many times have you tested the match up, once, try ten times and see what happens.
Since you talk about having cards but haven't posted this is very one sided in your favor.
Even if you play heavy draw from stadium or delphox it again proves one thing hex and a change of stadium shuts down your decks draw power like every other deck. Fire has no megas, vespiquen only has one weakness mega based decks because it can't hit that high consistently, but the prize trade off is just not enough to create a threat. And even if you'd like to blacksmith every turn you can't, but they can, you'll still need to drop 1 card for consistency and that's where they win.
Even if your meta is heavy grass and vespiquen is a threat playing for type doesn't guarantee anything, playing for consistency does. If you feel like fire is a thing, fine, all I'm saying is put 3 e hammer in your deck regardless, that is your matchup against vespiquen.
Since you talk about having cards but haven't posted this is very one sided in your favor.
Even if you play heavy draw from stadium or delphox it again proves one thing hex and a change of stadium shuts down your decks draw power like every other deck. Fire has no megas, vespiquen only has one weakness mega based decks because it can't hit that high consistently, but the prize trade off is just not enough to create a threat. And even if you'd like to blacksmith every turn you can't, but they can, you'll still need to drop 1 card for consistency and that's where they win.
Even if your meta is heavy grass and vespiquen is a threat playing for type doesn't guarantee anything, playing for consistency does. If you feel like fire is a thing, fine, all I'm saying is put 3 e hammer in your deck regardless, that is your matchup against vespiquen.
I would suggest a speed emboar deck. basically, use the concept of quad reshiram, and basically explode using blacksmith, fiery toarch, scorched earth, and just use the new emboar ex from the starter decks. Quad reshi was popular at canadian nats, and I could see a quad emboar deck being made.
I bacame fourth (4-1-0) this weekend in an LC using Entei AOR ( 2 of both) and 4 slugma XY/Magcargo PCR.
The strategy was streaming blacksmith turn after turn and setting up two pokemon per turn. Magcargo with hard charm survives M. Manectric and only needs 2HKO against everything except Wailord so it's really a good prize trade. Also kills Shaymin-EX in one attack.
It easily beats Vespiquen because I'm faster in setting up and after killing 4 Vespiquen/DCE they struggle to return.
The strategy was streaming blacksmith turn after turn and setting up two pokemon per turn. Magcargo with hard charm survives M. Manectric and only needs 2HKO against everything except Wailord so it's really a good prize trade. Also kills Shaymin-EX in one attack.
It easily beats Vespiquen because I'm faster in setting up and after killing 4 Vespiquen/DCE they struggle to return.
Vespiquen has a hard time taking one prize at a time anyways because of low energy counts. So I can see this working to your favor.
I meant reshiram EX, I'm sorry to anyone who didn't understand me.
Reshiram EX doesn't have an ability or attack involving attaching energy...literally no Reshiram except the ROS Dragon-type one attaches energy, and like I said, it only attaches to Dragon-types.
So how any Reshiram contributes to a speed Fire build is a complete mystery to me :\
you would use 4 reshiram ex and use blacksmith to charge it up quickly, and then scorch them with brave fire. (150+20 from muscle band=170, ko most ex's)
Camerupt/Magma's Camerupt seems to have become pretty good. It was always interesting on paper because of the lack of a damage cap, but just a bit clunky. At the same, grass hadn't been big for a while and water (in the form of Toad) was everywhere. Shaymin makes it much faster and more consistent, grass is everywhere, water is not around in Standard.
What about a deck without a fire EX pokémon?
I've been playing with this deck since February and I got some above average results with it. Only have a bad time against pure Seismitoad EX decks, and the most agressive versions of Night March and Rayquaza decks (those who don't run Aegislash, Bronzong).
This deck is not viable in standard format though because I can't think of anything replacing Reshiram with the same effectiveness.
I've been playing with this deck since February and I got some above average results with it. Only have a bad time against pure Seismitoad EX decks, and the most agressive versions of Night March and Rayquaza decks (those who don't run Aegislash, Bronzong).
This deck is not viable in standard format though because I can't think of anything replacing Reshiram with the same effectiveness.
Can someone post a skeleton list for speed Blacksmith - ness? Presume you have 4 basics, Reshiram LTR, Reshiram EX, any fire basic the attacks FFCC or whatevs.
I used to play a Reshiram deck that was all about donking with Blue Flare on turn 1, then repeating every turn until everything is ashes, it ran DCE so once Reshiram started taking hits you could keep attacking with Outrage and charge up another on the bench (hopefully with blacksmith) I tried Delphox XY in this with less success when I tried to focus on evolving Delphox early since it took focus away from the turn 1-2 Blacksmith, but it was awesome mid-late game. I ran scoop ups so if I had another attacker I could scoop Reshiram and save the DCE and so on, never tried it with Shaymin EX, but I bet that would make it more consistent. That black and white Reshiram was the best, I don't think Entei is a great replacement, but it's pretty much all we got. It's just harder to pull the DCE for Heat Tackle and do Blacksmith to pull off the donk, where Reshiram you only needed another basic fire, the DCE was only a bonus for Outrage if your opponent survived the respectable 120 damage.
Reshiram EX and Victory Star is awesome.
I used to play a Reshiram deck that was all about donking with Blue Flare on turn 1, then repeating every turn until everything is ashes, it ran DCE so once Reshiram started taking hits you could keep attacking with Outrage and charge up another on the bench (hopefully with blacksmith) I tried Delphox XY in this with less success when I tried to focus on evolving Delphox early since it took focus away from the turn 1-2 Blacksmith, but it was awesome mid-late game. I ran scoop ups so if I had another attacker I could scoop Reshiram and save the DCE and so on, never tried it with Shaymin EX, but I bet that would make it more consistent. That black and white Reshiram was the best, I don't think Entei is a great replacement, but it's pretty much all we got. It's just harder to pull the DCE for Heat Tackle and do Blacksmith to pull off the donk, where Reshiram you only needed another basic fire, the DCE was only a bonus for Outrage if your opponent survived the respectable 120 damage.
Reshiram EX and Victory Star is awesome.
What about a deck without a fire EX pokémon?
I've been playing with this deck since February and I got some above average results with it. Only have a bad time against pure Seismitoad EX decks, and the most agressive versions of Night March and Rayquaza decks (those who don't run Aegislash, Bronzong).
This deck is not viable in standard format though because I can't think of anything replacing Reshiram with the same effectiveness.
You could always add some DCE and run AT Entei instead of Reshiram.
Then the deck would lose a lot of potential... :'c
The deck is very dependent of a good early game, and quite often you need some early Scorched Earth action.
DCE would reduce the potential draw with Scorched Earth and energization with Blacksmiths and make the deck a bit vulnerable to Hammers and Xerosics.
Also, Entei isn't quite as powerful as Reshiram.
Reshiram's Outrage puts a lot of pressure to Lucario-EX and Yveltal-EX, since both don't knockout Reshiram so easily.
Honestly, I think the new Heatmore will start giving vepqeen a run. For a single energy it does 20 and if it a tool card is attached to it does 20 more. So you could muscle band it for a knock out. If your going to run Delphox I would toss in Heatmore so you can have a better chance of winning the prize card exchange. Where Delphox will produce a massive offense against a deck, heatmore will bring those short attacks that will bring a bit more balance o the deck. Just run a four line of muscle bands, and some fighting belts and let heatmore to the heavy lifting against the Vespquen deck. You won't even have to put Delphox on the board.
I have played both Delphox / Reshiram and Delphox / Entei and I don't think I agree... playing DCE for Entei does limit your Scorched Earth opportunities a little bit, but that's it. Never any problem having energy in the discard pile to Blacksmith and never any problem getting Entei ready to attack in the first two turns. T1 is pretty easy, T2 is almost guaranteed. And Entei is both a harder hitter AND harder to KO than Reshiram, with the ability to play double Muscle Band or double Assault Vest on one Entei. Of course, it is vulnerable to Hammers and Xerosic as you mention.
Basing it largely off of the engine that Entei/Charizard uses, Entei/Delphox is not bad at all, and probably better in standard than Entei/Reshiram is in expanded in my opinion.
I have been playing Entei/Charizard for awhile and have had some very good results.
Entei is a lot of fun!
Entei is a lot of fun!
I've been playing Entei / Reshiram EX in Expanded recently and it's awesome. It's stupid fast. You can dead draw bad and lose, but even with Victini (which I run for Reshiram EX and Entei) starts I've pulled off a 170 damage Brave Fire on turn 2. Enough so that my opponent made me go first when he won the coin flip game 2. It's got nothing to do with Entei and Assault Vest, everything to do with Donkizard. With 4 UB, 2 Shaymin EX, 4 Battle Compressor, 4 Blacksmith, 4 VS Seeker, 4 Muscle Band, 2-4 Scorched Earth and 4 Trainer's Mail. Get your Battle Compressor and Blacksmith or VS Seeker, go digging for Muscle Band and DCE with Shays and Trainer's Mail
POW
Reshiram is awesome, but being able to do 130 with Entei, as opposed to 120 with Reshi and having to Blacksmith to Reshi next turn sucks. . . Entei can do 130 damage on turn 2 and doesn't discard energy. . . sick.
the only trouble is affording 2 Shaymin EX to dig for DCE . . .
POW
Reshiram is awesome, but being able to do 130 with Entei, as opposed to 120 with Reshi and having to Blacksmith to Reshi next turn sucks. . . Entei can do 130 damage on turn 2 and doesn't discard energy. . . sick.
the only trouble is affording 2 Shaymin EX to dig for DCE . . .