BLW-DRE Tier 2

priestkalim

priestkalim

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We all know Altchomp, Hydrai, and Eels will be Tier 1 and the most played come Fall BRs. But what will Tier 2 look like? What are some other solid, winning potential choices that just don't quite make the list? Maybe rogue decks that you expect to do well and why. I'm just getting sick of seeing people only talking about those three or BW6 decks. I want to see some discussion of other decks we'll see for the rest of the year.

I'll start. Mewtwo/Terrakion is ridiculously consistent. I'm really liking it. The only problem is it's two worst matchups are on that list of decks I don't want to talk about. Garchomp and Hydreigon both eat it for breakfast.
 
Mewtwo Terrakion EX is 1.5 at least. If you charge up a Mewtwo, you keep running through Garchomps. You easily OHKO Altarias as well.
Man, Tier 2 is going to be packed. It has Empoleon varients, Quad Entei, Accelgor stuff, Ninetails/Amoonguss, RayEels, Garbodor Varients, KlingKlang, Darkrai without Hydreigon varients, Mew EX varients, etc. Ninetails/Amoonguss may be 2.5 but I haven't seen it in action so...

After FB/CF, there will be Keldeo Blastoise at Tier 1.5, Dusknoir varients at Tier 2, more lock, and LandoTerrakion EX at tier 2.
 
priestkalim said:
We all know Altchomp, Hydrai, and Eels will be Tier 1 and the most played come Fall BRs.
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Out of curiosity, how do we know this? It's huge news to me. I certainly wouldn't put Hydregion at Tier 1, and I'm not sold on Garchomp either.
 
We know this from Japan, who has been playing this meta forever. How would you not put Hydreigon at Tier 1? Have you not seen it run?
What's your Tier 1 look like then? Just Eels at BDIF and no contest? Sounds even more depressing that what I'm already not happy with.

But all that's off topic. RogueChomp, I personally think you're giving some decks too much credit. Accelgor is pretty bad, Ninetails/Amoonguss has two or three strong turns and then burns out, and you can't really win a game that way. Garbodor is too easy to wreck (just play 2 Tool Scrapper and the matchup is incredibly in your favor).
 
Well, it's not off-topic if we do decide that Hydregion is Tier 2. If somebody comes into this thread saying, "deck X is Tier 2 in my opinion" you can't just shoot it down by claiming it's off-topic simply because you disagree with the statement; we won't get anywhere that way. Your opinion doesn't rule over that of others simply because you created this thread and listed your ideas about the format in the OP.

Japan's metagame has never been exactly like ours. LostGar, anybody? Yuta's Worlds-winning list, anybody? Japan isn't always going to be right. We played forever with Platinum before we figured Gyarados out, and even then it was only because of the French, not the Japanese.

I'd rather not explain most of my opinions about the format, but there are some very underhyped and discredited decks that I believe will be Tier 1. A lot of them revolve around Garbodor.

With regards to Hydregion, people really underestimate the importance of consistency in the new format. Hydregion is terribly inconsistent; you're running largely off of Items, you have to hold Stage 2's on the field with nothing special to get them out, and you have minimal free space for extra Supporters. It's probably the single least consistent meta deck. That makes it very vulnerable. Sableye is great and all, but it's a major momentum killer once you have the option to attack with other cards.

Sure, it's a unique idea in theory; you get healing, free retreat, energy manipulation, energy acceleration, snipe, big damage, tech options, a good starter, good recovery. Basically everything a deck could want. It just takes way too much to keep it running.
 
Keep in mind that Japan's metagame isn't like ours at all. While yes, we have more or less the same card pool, their tournament structure makes deck building keep different goals in mind. Their format rewards taking quick, cheap knock outs and denying prizes, something Darkrai/Hydreigon can do very well. However, in our format, I wouldn't consider playing Darkrai/Hydreigon personally, because of how clunky it is.
 
If you can honestly say it's Tier 2, fine, it's on topic. I don't believe that for a second though.
Hydreigon is a bit clunky at times, but I wouldn't call it inconsistent. The only consistency Garchomp has over Hydreigon is Gabite (which is admittedly a nice boost for Garchomp), and Hydreigon makes up for that by using basic attackers and not needing to set up multiple Stage 1s, something it also has over Eels.

As for Garbodor, I don't like him at all. Too many easily exploitable holes. Tool Scrapper and Catcher come of most note. Any bench sniper besides Raikou also usually does the job well, though Garby does have the edge over Raikou since Raikou loses all his energy and eels, while Garbodor will have Large Cloak or Rescue Scarf on it to make the one KO just a waste of energy.
 
Gabite is a major consistency boost. Garchomp "only" gets a Venusaur on a Stage 1 it has to run anyway; Garchomp "only" gets a Sunflora built in. That's a big deal. Also, most Garchomps use Rayquaza as a fill-in Basic attacker. With 2 Altaria in play, he does 80 for 1; 3 means 100 for 1.

Your argument for Garbodor contradicts your previous argument. You say Garbodor is too vulnerable to Catcher, yet you say nothing about Hydregion's vulnerability. Sure, Hydregion can retreat for free and it is ever so slightly more likely to survive a hit against the occasional non-Dragon deck you run into, but it's also a Stage 2 so if it does go down, it's significantly harder to set it up again.

Garbodor can beat Scrapper. If you play one or two, you'll always be digging for them and each turn or two you miss, I take another Prize. Each turn you hit it, you probably take a KO, but then I can just re-attach the tool and you have gained very little. It does struggle against decks with 3-4 Scrapper because they can make it run out of tools (or at least it can do this to some variants; not the best ones). But at the same time, decks with that many Scrapper take a huge blow to consistency, so it's likely Garbodor won't have to deal with them if it can dodge them in the early rounds.

Also, I'd love to hear the names of these other snipers.
 
Infinity said:
IMO Empoleon is Tier 1.
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Well-said! Give the man a prize!

Empoleon/Terrakion isn't enough, though. It needs a third wheel of sorts. Part of the reason the deck is good is because it has so many options for that third wheel. Even after you've seen Empoleon and Terrakion, you can't really tell what they're playing.
 
Celebi23 said:
I'd rather not explain most of my opinions about the format, but there are some very underhyped and discredited decks that I believe will be Tier 1. A lot of them revolve around Garbodor.
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Agreed. I've tested a couple of games with a Garbodor deck and it's very dominating if it can get the T2 lock.

Scrapper doesn't matter because my list runs 8 tools and i can usually get another one.

Anyway I think tier two will mostly be Darkrai variants, including Hydra. Also Mono Entei, Mono Fighting, Amoonguss/Ninetales, and many others will make appearances.
 
Hydreigon is tier 1. It is not inconsistent, clunky, or easy to stop. It is amazing, especially with Sableye, and can abuse techs. It is simple to set up multiple Hydreigons and Darkrais. Garbodor seems to troll it massively though.
Empoleon is very good, I'll give u that, but I don't think its tier 1. Maybe 1.5. Your opponent can adjust their set up so that u r spitting out less damage. Terrakion and Aerodactyl are great pairs with this. Aerodactyl allows the Ohko on Darkrais, Garchomps, dragons, hydreigons, etc. Its majorly consistent and really shouldn't die to Zekeels if played right.
 
Honestly guys, I've tested, and built an extremely consistent Hydra/Darkrai deck. You have to revolve around the issue of catcher, not to hard, Large Cloak / Rescue Scarf makes a perfect combo (I'm not saying having 2 tools on him I'm saying one or the other) Also, setting up another Hydra is just perfect, you can abuse the fact that their taking prizes, and drop a Shaymin on them. It's definitely tier 1.

As for tier 2, I'm thinking it's just gonna be a mumble jumbled mess of random rogue decks. Such as Ho-Oh Tornadus. Tier 1.5 is gonna be more defined than anything at the moment, as I believe that Fluffychomp might fall into there as it's super weak to catcher, and falls quickly to Rayquaza donks. I also now that Rayquaza EX/ Eels, will be tier 1.5 because It only have 1 bad match up.
 
RogueChomp said:
Hydreigon is tier 1. It is not inconsistent, clunky, or easy to stop. It is amazing, especially with Sableye, and can abuse techs. It is simple to set up multiple Hydreigons and Darkrais. Garbodor seems to troll it massively though.
Empoleon is very good, I'll give u that, but I don't think its tier 1. Maybe 1.5. Your opponent can adjust their set up so that u r spitting out less damage. Terrakion and Aerodactyl are great pairs with this. Aerodactyl allows the Ohko on Darkrais, Garchomps, dragons, hydreigons, etc. Its majorly consistent and really shouldn't die to Zekeels if played right.
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Getting that first Stage 2 out isn't horrible most of the time. I'll give you that. But streaming Max Potions is hard without Junk Arm, and if they take out a Hydregion or two, the deck does struggle. The decks that are the best are the ones that can do this anyway or shut it down in other ways.

The good Empoleons will have other attackers that let it deal with a small bench. A lot of decks like Garchomp will have trouble playing well with a small bench anyway.
Martini said:
Honestly guys, I've tested, and built an extremely consistent Hydra/Darkrai deck. You have to revolve around the issue of catcher, not to hard, Large Cloak / Rescue Scarf makes a perfect combo (I'm not saying having 2 tools on him I'm saying one or the other)
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I have no idea what you're saying, sorry.
Also, setting up another Hydra is just perfect, you can abuse the fact that their taking prizes, and drop a Shaymin on them. It's definitely tier 1.
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This is like saying, "I can abuse the fact that I'm losing to try to win." Besides, if they take out Hydregion, you can't charge Shaymin in one turn.

I am by no means claiming that Hydregion will be a Tier 2 deck. I'm only pointing out that the deck is not automatically Tier 1 and that it has a lot of flaws. I am saying that there are most certainly better plays.
 
Not to mention that a Garbodor shuts the deck down completely. Granted it won't hurt too much, but a couple turns of ability-lock does make your life miserable.
 
Discussing Tier 2 seems pointless overall. I think we should change this to a BW-DRE Tier thread, not just Tier 2.

Hydreigon loses to Garbodor Hammers believe it or not. Catcher up Hydreigon and you pretty much win, with the exception that some builds run switch, but rarely.
I think the tier list would be something like this (from the things I've read and in no particular order):

Tier 1:
Zekeels
Hydreigon/Darkrai (1-1.5)
Garchomp Altaria (1-1.5)
Empoleon

Tier 1.5:
Mewtwo/Terrakion
Garbodor varients

Tier 2:
Locks (paralysis, trainer, damage swap, energy removal, etc)
Quads of all sorts
Rayeels
KlingKlang
Ho-oh Tornadus EX

Tier 2.5:
Mew EX
Ninetails/Amoonguss
Durant varients (yes I mean it)
just my opinions.
 
WIth the slower format, Hammers, and yes Durant, become more viable. Not incredible, but it is still playable, a little lower then tier 2. Sableye Aggron Devo Spray is more viable than Aggron Durant because you can reuse it endlessly.
 
RogueChomp said:
Discussing Tier 2 seems pointless overall. I think we should change this to a BW-DRE Tier thread, not just Tier 2.

Hydreigon loses to Garbodor Hammers believe it or not. Catcher up Hydreigon and you pretty much win, with the exception that some builds run switch, but rarely.
I think the tier list would be something like this (from the things I've read and in no particular order):

Tier 1:
Zekeels
Hydreigon/Darkrai (1-1.5)
Garchomp Altaria (1-1.5)
Empoleon

Tier 1.5:
Mewtwo/Terrakion
Garbodor varients

Tier 2:
Locks (paralysis, trainer, damage swap, energy removal, etc)
Quads of all sorts
Rayeels
KlingKlang
Ho-oh Tornadus EX

Tier 2.5:
Mew EX
Ninetails/Amoonguss
Durant varients (yes I mean it)
just my opinions.
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I fully agree with this assessment. Lock-wise, I'm really liking Gothitelle/Gardevoir for this season.
 
I don't think tiers can be assumed yet. We know some decks that will be good (DraiHydreigon and Gartaria), but we don't know how they will stand up to all the secret decks. The nexgt format is much more versatile and there will be a large variety of decks, but not a clear Tier 1 (or 2) for awhile now. I agree on RogueChomps list (except for a few .5 changes).
 
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