So you like a 3 deck format?
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You have a number of deck. You can make 4 out of Evolutions alone.
Haha yes I agree. Wow that was a lot to read thanks for breaking that all down.
Edit: Kidding.
Moving all the fluff aside, you're responding to things I've never said. My entire point is that rotating more sets forces the competitive player base to buy more of the new sets, this increasing sales and profits. Nowhere does this involve research and development or the cost of hosting events or anything else you brought up. So while you're not wrong when you say all that stuff you said, it's not relevant, especially when you present it in a way that implies contradiction to my points. I honestly think you're reading things that aren't there and then responding to them, which is why I had no idea what you were talking about in your initial reply.
Edit: Kidding.
Moving all the fluff aside, you're responding to things I've never said. My entire point is that rotating more sets forces the competitive player base to buy more of the new sets, this increasing sales and profits. Nowhere does this involve research and development or the cost of hosting events or anything else you brought up. So while you're not wrong when you say all that stuff you said, it's not relevant, especially when you present it in a way that implies contradiction to my points. I honestly think you're reading things that aren't there and then responding to them, which is why I had no idea what you were talking about in your initial reply.
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This is what I love about any rotation discussion. You have people who think we'll see a typical 3-5 set expansion and people who think we're in for something big. Any time an arguement is presented for a more extreme rotation, it's met with protestations in the form of straw man counter arguments and feelings.
A three deck format isn't objectively bad. It probably isn't as fun but it's a sorry excuse for an argument just to throw that out there and imply that your opponent is an idiot because their view seemingly supports a smaller meta.
Not to mention how Evo-on would not create a three deck format. The only reason the sets from evo-on haven't produced very many competitive decks is because crazy fast decks like Volc and Turbo Dark out compete them. Cutting them out would allow for the creation of good decks that would otherwise be too slow to keep up. Maybe even SM Golduck would have a shot. Consistent 120 damage for one energy ain't bad but when Darkrai is one shotting you by T2 when you're barely set up there really isn't much hope. Golisipod, SM Garb, Blastoise, etc could all show their faces in a meta without the ridiculously fast and powerful EXs of the XY block.
Maybe those who believe we're getting a typical rotation show worse argumentation skills because they don't feel the need to be better. I'll be honest, I think Evo-On is what should happen but I'm on the fence about whether or not it will. A more conservative estimate is the far more popular opinion and I can see how arguing for an already popular view doesn't feel like it needs much effort or quality. It's a shame to see people give up on fair debate though. Just because you hold the popular, "obvious" view doesn't mean you can respond to a well thought out, sound line of reasoning with mockery and feelings.
A lot of stuff in this thread is rambling disguised as debate. "It's not going to happen, it's never happened before" isn't a proper argument. Neither is "I feel like they won't leave us with so few sets". These are potentially fallacious and more about feelings than facts. Also, you can't make an argument without addressing what the other person has said, otherwise you're just talking at them, not with them. Hearing about how rotating lots of sets will earn TPCi more money and then talking about children being the target market or about research and development doesn't actually respond to the initial argument. It's not the same topic anymore. If I like apples, you can't disprove their tastiness by saying you like oranges.
There is a healthy amount of evidence that favors Evo-on as a very plausible rotation. It's not a perfect argument by any means but god it would be nice to see some actual objections instead of the usual bull.
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I feel I've presented myself well for why I believe it will be Evolutions-On. We all know this may not happen and we could just get a normal three to five set rotation, leaving the game the same way it is now (considering Professor Sycamore and Trainers' Mail are getting XY Promo numbers). If they want to change the game (which is the point of rotation by the way) then they need to just move on, take a loss on the player side and make the game healthy because I DO NOT want to play against Decidueye-GX/Vileplume/Sableye.
With Evo-On, the decks we have are;
M Venusaur-EX
M Blastoise-EX
M Pidgeot-EX
Pidgeot-EX
M Slowbro-EX
This is five decks from just one set and given the support water is doing, four of these decks get huge support (assuming you play a water build with Pidgeot)
From Sun and Moon, you got
Decidueye-GX
Incinaroar-GX
Primarina-GX
Tauros-GX/Hammers
Vikavolt
This is like nine decks I could think of. We still have two more Sun and Moon sets, not including and .5 sets.
With Evo-On, the decks we have are;
M Venusaur-EX
M Blastoise-EX
M Pidgeot-EX
Pidgeot-EX
M Slowbro-EX
This is five decks from just one set and given the support water is doing, four of these decks get huge support (assuming you play a water build with Pidgeot)
From Sun and Moon, you got
Decidueye-GX
Incinaroar-GX
Primarina-GX
Tauros-GX/Hammers
Vikavolt
This is like nine decks I could think of. We still have two more Sun and Moon sets, not including and .5 sets.
Dont forget all the new cards we'll get as promos from the best of XY set, probably a couple more Megas, and its looks like M Sharpedo might be good, and if Mega Camperupts attack cost is 3 energy for 120x number of fire energy you discard it might see quite a decent amount of play with mallow
Id love that
You need to remember that when cards that are OP rotate out the not so OP cards come out and become decks, those are decks like Incineroar GX and Primerina GX. In the next set we could see Tapu Koko GX see play or even Vikavolt GX with its baby version. A Evo-On would be the best thing TCPi could do for their competitive scene. GX is leading towards a healthy competitive scene. If we rotate everything thats ruining it (XY Era minus Evolutions) then we would see Stage 2's be relevant without having to be op, which is all we see right now (Greninja Break, Deciplume)
@Sergiohmygod
Okay, I'll just drop it as well, because I'm not too sure about what you mean either, then.
(No, really. I tried answering. You said it made no sense, so that means I'm not understanding you either. XP)
Okay, I'll just drop it as well, because I'm not too sure about what you mean either, then.
(No, really. I tried answering. You said it made no sense, so that means I'm not understanding you either. XP)
IF it was evolutions on there would only be like four sets in standard
Puzzle of time can be used as a double vs seeker. So what im saying is it should go high in price.
Yeah and that's not a bad thing. Also Puzzle of Time would rotate too.
While I don't like to discuss rotations until the actual announcement, it's possible that the Tapu factor w/ Lurantis, Aqua Patch-powered Waterbox, etc. could render the entire XY era obsolete one cycle too early: If those two deck archetypes dominate in matches vs. XY-era cards of any kind before July, then if TPCi goes BKT-On, the last remnants of the XY era: the BREAK block, will remain, but unless I'm wrong, they might struggle to stay competitive...
^ I hope such a mismatch does not materialize, as if it does, that might spark talk for the need for another so-called "emergency rotation", or even a staged rotation to BKT-On for two months, then SUM-On in September... Then again, the Tapus look TOO good w/ no weakness, yet powerful, attacks, so who knows what TPCi will do in that scenario? From card text looks, they could combine forces w/ Decidueye-GX to make the Tapus the top cards that are actual stars(none of the Night March cards are actual stars, as they do NOT grace the cover of any pokemon TCG product, whether box, tin, etc.) to beat, a title not seen since Mewtwo-EX from NXD, let alone the VirGen combo from PLB. And those sets were in the BW era, not the XY era nor the SUM era...
^ Whatever the future holds for the Tapus in next set and beyond, I look forward to seeing how they stack up in terms of whether or not cards before them do not stand a chance against them.
^ If the Tapus perform well enough to make true the same "use them or else you lose" scenario that was true in NXD's time, but not since the time of the Plasma sets, such a scenario could be telling the remaining BREAKs, rotation or no, to go to the unofficial graveyard. But if they don't...
^ I hope such a mismatch does not materialize, as if it does, that might spark talk for the need for another so-called "emergency rotation", or even a staged rotation to BKT-On for two months, then SUM-On in September... Then again, the Tapus look TOO good w/ no weakness, yet powerful, attacks, so who knows what TPCi will do in that scenario? From card text looks, they could combine forces w/ Decidueye-GX to make the Tapus the top cards that are actual stars(none of the Night March cards are actual stars, as they do NOT grace the cover of any pokemon TCG product, whether box, tin, etc.) to beat, a title not seen since Mewtwo-EX from NXD, let alone the VirGen combo from PLB. And those sets were in the BW era, not the XY era nor the SUM era...
^ Whatever the future holds for the Tapus in next set and beyond, I look forward to seeing how they stack up in terms of whether or not cards before them do not stand a chance against them.
^ If the Tapus perform well enough to make true the same "use them or else you lose" scenario that was true in NXD's time, but not since the time of the Plasma sets, such a scenario could be telling the remaining BREAKs, rotation or no, to go to the unofficial graveyard. But if they don't...
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I fell the Tapu Pokemon are fairly balanced, being just a bit better than Pokemon-EX. The no Weakness is nice to see. Glad to see it come back to the game.
Except it isn't because they've realized that the Weakness mechanic is broken and the whole "Pokémon Type" angle that added depth to the Gen I video games, seems to rob it from current ones. Yeah, yeah, if I don't stop there I'll rant on Pokémon taxonomy. XP Damage doubling Weakness is just too powerful, at least for the TCG. We might have realized it sooner but there were enough other things going wrong in the early days, it just didn't seem as bad by comparison. The +10/20/30/40 Weakness spread (that later also added a few strong cards with x2 Weakness on them) of the Gen IV sets was a little better, but if they aren't going to abandon it entirely, I'd like to see a flat +20 Weakness instituted instead. Weakness ends up being a free Muscle Band; seems strong enough to matter without being so strong it is the only thing that matters. >.>
I don't know if the new Tapu Pokémon are fairly balanced. Tapu Bulu-GX looks fine, perhaps weak relative to what we see doing well right now. Tapu Koko-GX doesn't look overly powerful either, but a bit better; the Ability allows a player to spam Max Potion or (in Expanded) bounce effects to flush away damage, forcing OHKOs by the opponent. Its regular attack, however, hits hard enough for reliable 2HKOs but not OHKOs and the GX-attack may almost be needed to punish the Energy flooding strategies we've been seeing. Tapu Fini-GX wouldn't be anything special except, ya know, Aqua Patch and competitive decks relying heavily on Shaymin-EX (ROS); that's going to be a problem in Expanded. Oh, and while it is kind of nice if you wish fewer people ran Shaymin-EX, think of all those small Bench-sitters (Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2) that also fall prey to it. Tapu Lele-GX only looks balanced compared to how broken it could have been, since the first attack doesn't apply Weakness, and the GX-attack seems specialized. Otherwise, it is Jirachi-EX and Mewtwo-EX (NXD) on the same card. @_@
PMJ
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The tapus are good, but not broken. Otaku laid it out pretty nicely. Lele is easily the best out of the four because it's an S-tier support Pokemon with a great attack. There is little opportunity cost to using it.
Re the rotation: You're deluding yourself if you think the rotation is going to be EVO-on. The only reason the emergency rotation happened is because Sableye donk decks were busted under the new Black and White rules. Being able to play Trainers, as well as attack, on your first turn (as well as being guaranteed to go first thanks to Overconfident) is what forced TPCI to act. The format would have devolved into play Sableye donk or lose.
Sets are almost always always cut in easily definable blocks where the earliest set in the rotation is also the first set introducing a new mechanic or game:
00-01: Dark Pokemon (Rocket-on, 4 sets removed)
02-03: Gen 1 rotates out (Genesis-on, 3 sets removed))
03-04: e-Card series (Expedition-on, 5 sets removed)
04-05: Gen 2 rotates out (RS-on, 3 sets removed)
05-06: First set without Dot-Code data strips on cards (HL-on, 4 sets removed)
06-07: an exception here, as Pokemon-* were introduced one set prior but that would only yield a two-set rotation (DX-on, 3 sets removed)
07-08: Delta Species (HP-on, 5 sets removed)
08-09: Gen 3 rotates out (DP-on, 4 sets removed)
09-10: no rotation
10-11: no obvious pattern here, but four sets were lost, making this fall in the normal 3-5 set spread (MD-on, 4 sets removed)
11-12: Platinum sets rotate out to remove Sableye SF and the SP engine from Standard (HGSS-on, aka emergency rotation, 7 sets removed)
12-13: Gen 4 rotates out (BW-on, 5 sets removed)
13-14: Pokemon-EX (NXD-on, 3 sets removed)
14-15: First BW2 set, also ACE SPECs (BCR-on, 3 sets removed)
15-16: Gen 5 rotates out (XY-on, 5 sets removed)
16-17: Ancient Traits (PRC-on, 4 sets removed)
Following this pattern, it stands to reason that the next rotations should be
17-18: Pokemon BREAK (BKT-on, 3 sets removed)
18-19: Gen 6 rotates out (SM-on, 5 sets removed)
19-20: Some mechanic which will be introduced in SM4 or SM5
The only time in this game's history when more than five normal sets were rotated out was due to mechanic changes that would have made the game virtually unplayable. In addition to this, before the ban, there were twelve sets in Standard, and that's only because there was no rotation for the 2010 season. Had they shifted to MD-on in 2010 and then done something like Platinum-on in 2011 (first Platinum set, 3 sets removed), the shift to HGSS-on would only have removed four sets, well within this long-established pattern.
Should Sableye prove to make the game unfun, all they have to do is move the rotation up a couple months. BKT-on would remove both Forest of Giant Plants and Vileplume from Standard, thus eliminating the core problem without resorting to gutting the format. I could see them doing it for Worlds, along with making SM3 legal, just to shake things up.
As an aside, I'm actually a little surprised that they didn't bring back the additive weakness modifiers from gen 4. It would have made non-GX Pokemon a lot more viable since one-shotting them with a type they're weak to would happen much less often. I wouldn't have minded seeing it back.
Re the rotation: You're deluding yourself if you think the rotation is going to be EVO-on. The only reason the emergency rotation happened is because Sableye donk decks were busted under the new Black and White rules. Being able to play Trainers, as well as attack, on your first turn (as well as being guaranteed to go first thanks to Overconfident) is what forced TPCI to act. The format would have devolved into play Sableye donk or lose.
Sets are almost always always cut in easily definable blocks where the earliest set in the rotation is also the first set introducing a new mechanic or game:
00-01: Dark Pokemon (Rocket-on, 4 sets removed)
02-03: Gen 1 rotates out (Genesis-on, 3 sets removed))
03-04: e-Card series (Expedition-on, 5 sets removed)
04-05: Gen 2 rotates out (RS-on, 3 sets removed)
05-06: First set without Dot-Code data strips on cards (HL-on, 4 sets removed)
06-07: an exception here, as Pokemon-* were introduced one set prior but that would only yield a two-set rotation (DX-on, 3 sets removed)
07-08: Delta Species (HP-on, 5 sets removed)
08-09: Gen 3 rotates out (DP-on, 4 sets removed)
09-10: no rotation
10-11: no obvious pattern here, but four sets were lost, making this fall in the normal 3-5 set spread (MD-on, 4 sets removed)
11-12: Platinum sets rotate out to remove Sableye SF and the SP engine from Standard (HGSS-on, aka emergency rotation, 7 sets removed)
12-13: Gen 4 rotates out (BW-on, 5 sets removed)
13-14: Pokemon-EX (NXD-on, 3 sets removed)
14-15: First BW2 set, also ACE SPECs (BCR-on, 3 sets removed)
15-16: Gen 5 rotates out (XY-on, 5 sets removed)
16-17: Ancient Traits (PRC-on, 4 sets removed)
Following this pattern, it stands to reason that the next rotations should be
17-18: Pokemon BREAK (BKT-on, 3 sets removed)
18-19: Gen 6 rotates out (SM-on, 5 sets removed)
19-20: Some mechanic which will be introduced in SM4 or SM5
The only time in this game's history when more than five normal sets were rotated out was due to mechanic changes that would have made the game virtually unplayable. In addition to this, before the ban, there were twelve sets in Standard, and that's only because there was no rotation for the 2010 season. Had they shifted to MD-on in 2010 and then done something like Platinum-on in 2011 (first Platinum set, 3 sets removed), the shift to HGSS-on would only have removed four sets, well within this long-established pattern.
Should Sableye prove to make the game unfun, all they have to do is move the rotation up a couple months. BKT-on would remove both Forest of Giant Plants and Vileplume from Standard, thus eliminating the core problem without resorting to gutting the format. I could see them doing it for Worlds, along with making SM3 legal, just to shake things up.
As an aside, I'm actually a little surprised that they didn't bring back the additive weakness modifiers from gen 4. It would have made non-GX Pokemon a lot more viable since one-shotting them with a type they're weak to would happen much less often. I wouldn't have minded seeing it back.
While I completely agree with everything youre saying, they have changed a lot of things in the competitive scene this year. How tournaments are played (no more city, now league cups, removed nationals in place of Internationals.) and then they also changed how sets are legalised. Its not farfetched enough to say that maybe they are changing how they do rotations this year. Maybe introducing this sableye gave them reason to emergency rush another huge rotation and get rid of Darkrai decks before rotation given how op the new one will be to Dark decks.
Look at all the boxes theyre releasing. We're about to have Mega Lucario, Mega Manectric and Mega Gengar all standard legal for the next 2-3 years with no EX to mega evolve from. This isnt something theyve ever done. I think that crystal_pidgeot is onto something. They might just leave PRC-SM3 for worlds and then rotate everything. Sure a lot of promos wouldnt get to see play, but it doesnt make sense for so many cards to not be usable for the next two rotations. It doesnt make any sense. I think we should expect a huge rotation or something special to happen for this upcoming rotation.
PMJ
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This isn't true. Sableye is only hyped to be threatening in Vileplume decks. Dark decks don't play Vileplume. Being able to play Items is a big deal and makes Sableye's lock much less effective, given that you can simply Float or Rope your way out of the active spot and just kill him.
Vileplume is the source of this problem. Rotating to Evolutions won't do anything further than rotating to BKT.
This isn't the first time that a Pokemon has been unplayable in Standard. Rocket's Persian ex was legal without a Pokemon to evolve it from, and Mega Gengar is legal right now but still unplayable. And again, rotating to Evolutions-on wouldn't make them any more usable in Standard.
A group of my friends were talking about weakness and say it would be balanced at -60 damage for attack, which I feel is fair.
-20 is very effective. That last 20 damage is what (typically) makes or breaks KOs, especially OHKOs.
-20 isn't effective enough. Resistance should be just as powerful as Weakness so if you can easily lose to weakness, they you should also be able to lose to resistance so -60 for it is big enough to change matchups completely.