CBDotW 26

[PG24]

Garchomp, Manaphy, Excadrill, and Swift Swim + Drizzle. All of these I just listed are banned from BW OU. What do they all have in common? They all are abusers of permanent weather and are uber mainly because of traits weather gave them.

Just to add another Pokemon to the discussion, let's look at the unreleased (but it will be coming very soon) Keldeo. Did you know that it 2hko's 4 HP Kingdra (a x4 resist) and Blissey (the best special wall in the game) with a LO +1 Timid rain boosted Hydro Pump? Without the rain it's a 4hko on the former and a 3hko on the latter (obviously it would secret sword instead but this is an example).

For this discussion, which do you think is the problem here: the weather or the Pokemon that abuse it?

 

[Professor Palutena]

Have to say weather.

What made the Swift Swim Pokemon uber? Drizzle.
What made Excadrill uber? Sandstream (technically, Sand Rush. But Sand Rush is worthless without Sand Stream).
What took Garchomp from being a solid Pokemon to uber? Sandstream (A miss can cost you the game, but the miss only happens with Sandstream active).

I'm going to quote something from the latest edition of the Smog as they talk about Kyogre:

No qualities section would be complete if I didn't spend at least a bit of time gushing over Kyogre's ability, Drizzle. This is an ability with power beyond measure, outdone really only by Wonder Guard and Multitype. This probably predates many of you reading this, but years back, the Create-a-Pokémon team decided to try allowing Kyogre into OU, along with Groudon, at level 78, a level where their stat total was supposed to match that of a typical OU. Didn't help. Not one bit. They were just too powerful, even at reduced strength, partially because of their amazing team support.

So the Pokemon with the abilities are introduced into OU at a level deemed fair by the guys that know their stuff. But the ability provides incomparable support for the team. What provides this support? Weather. Koygre ain't setting up or stopping entry hazards, it isn't passing Wish. What is it doing? Sitting around making an eternal rainstorm for the rest of its team to enjoy.

Newer users know another great example of Drizzle's power in Politoed, a Pokémon who was previously declared as rubbish by the competitive scene, but is now leading the charge as the premier archetype in OU: rain. And Politoed itself still isn't even that good, apart from a pretty potent Choice Specs Hydro Pump.

Politoed is terrible. Outside of its ability, there is no reason for it to exist. Why is it suddenly good? Because it has access to the same ability that made Kyogre too good for OU, and Politoed can at least support the team with Hypnosis.

There are two more points I'd like to bring up. The first is Gastrodon. This slug went from NU to OU within three months because of its ability to counter a fair chunk of rain teams. Are rain teams that centralizing that a Pokemon that no one paid any mind to suddenly becomes a star? Apparently so.

The second point is the banning of Garchomp. Going off of the metagame analysis from when Garchomp was banned (found here), I quote:

Managing to claim the fifteenth spot on the list shows that the metagame was very centered on Garchomp, and it truly was a threat to be aware of.

I've bolded the word centered for a reason. Things are banned because they are centralizing. Was Garchomp centralizing? Apparently so. Is Rain centralizing? YES, as proven by Gastrodon.

I know all I'm doing is really just talking about Drizzle, but its the only one I have much of a problem with. Banning sandstream gets messy until Hippowdon has a released DW ability, and Sun is generally not a problem at all with Heatran and all the Dragons around, while Hail is just... hail.

 

[PG24]

Actually, all weather mons (except Snowman iirc) have one abilty to use instead of their weather abilty. Tyranitar and Hippo got their abilities released recently.

 

[King Arceus]

The weather definitely appears to be the problem. While I may not do OU as much as some of you, I do Ubers a ton and I can tell you that you either run weather or a way to stop weather. If Drizzle got banned, I could see Keldeo being fair in OU since the rain would no longer be permanent. One would have to actually spend a turn casting weather not just be brought out right away to change the weather then switch out immediately. The question would also have to be asked if the items that increase the duration of weather get banned. Three extra turns of rain could be all the difference between victory and defeat.

Tyranitar and Hippo got their abilities released recently.

Unfortunately TTar's DW ability is just bad. Unnerve out of all things on a good Pokemon is just disappointing. Hippo's DW ability is at least usable.

 

[Complexy990]

Unfortunately TTar's DW ability is just bad. Unnerve out of all things on a good Pokemon is just disappointing. Hippo's DW ability is at least usable.

...so many things wrong with this comment oh lord .

And, I don't know. Personally I wouldn't like to see weather go, I think it adds a lot to the metagame and I don't think it's too wrong to ban things just for being overpowered in weather. But that's from the point of view of someone who likes to build anti-weather teams.

 

[Dangerous36M]

Unnerve out of all things on a good Pokemon is just disappointing. Hippo's DW ability is at least usable.

On the topic of using them outside of weather conditions, how is Sand Force usable exactly?

 

[bacon]

I am on the fence about weather's status as a suspect. In many instances Pokemon who benefit from weather are already very good in their own right and could qualify for uber status of their own accord (Garchomp, Manaphy, Blaziken, Thunderus). As weather is such a omnipresent mechanic, the only true way of justifying its negative/positive impact on the metagame is by testing the clear skies tier to see whether or not it constitutes a more preferable metagame. This is something that is horrible to theorymon over because the effects that removing entire playstyles from the game would have would be completely unpredictable and may not at all be for the best. Like when we banned Excadrill and ended up with a metagame even worse due to the Deoxys-S spam that suddenly became very viable.

There are some things I also want to say:

- Just because Keldeo can 2HKO everything in the game with rain, this does not make it broken as practicality is gauged by far more than damage calculations. Terrakion and Haxorus basically do the same thing.

- Let's be fair here about Kyogre. Rain isn't all that it provides. It nukes everything in sight. I think this is a very unfair comparison. If Luvdisc had drizzle, you bet it wouldn't be uber.

- Gastrodon's rise in usage does not at all correspond to Rain being too centralising. A playstyle is popular, a counter for it exists, people use that counter. It's more dependant on the counter's level of usage that really matters and, considering Gastrodon is sitting at #33 at the moment in Smogon's tiers (and waaaay lower in the 1337 stats, not even OU!), I wouldn't call its presence any indication of overcentralisation.

 

[Dork Void]

- Just because Keldeo can 2HKO everything in the game with rain, this does not make it broken as practicality is gauged by far more than damage calculations. Terrakion and Haxorus basically do the same thing.

I understand what you're saying, but do note that Haxorus gets outsped by most of OU (whereas Keldeo is only outsped by 2 of the least common OU Pokemon, Jolteon and Tornadus) and Terrakion needs Choice Band to break through physical walls, leaving it weak to good predictions, while Keldeo merely needs the rain, which comes with no such weakness.

- Let's be fair here about Kyogre. Rain isn't all that it provides. It nukes everything in sight. I think this is a very unfair comparison. If Luvdisc had drizzle, you bet it wouldn't be uber.

The point in making Kyogre and Groudon only allowed at level 78 was that at that level their stats were comparative to other things in the OU tier, meaning the only reason for them still to be Uber even then was their abilities.

Gastrodon's rise in usage does not at all correspond to Rain being too centralising. A playstyle is popular, a counter for it exists, people use that counter. It's more dependant on the counter's level of usage that really matters and, considering Gastrodon is sitting at #33 at the moment in Smogon's tiers (and waaaay lower in the 1337 stats, not even OU!), I wouldn't call its presence any indication of overcentralisation.

Considering it was somewhere in the hundreds last gen, I would say that #33, or even top 50 or wherever its at in the higher ratings is still a huge jump, probably bigger than anything seen before, except maybe Blaziken (which is really not a fair comparison, Blaziken was only not used the gen before mostly because Infernape outsped it, with Speed Boost it outclasses Infernape in that way, meanwhile Gastrodon would still be outclassed by Rotom-W or Swampert if its ability was the only thing to change). That drastic a change in response to one play style is perhaps the definition of overcentralization.

I personally feel that weather should be banned. It is the main contributor to the power creep in Gen 5 that has caused many creative Pokemon and sets to vanish from the tier, leaving it feeling more bland than Gen 4 despite a wider range of Pokemon and moves (or at least I feel so).

 

[Chillarmy]

I personally feel that weather should be banned. It is the main contributor to the power creep in Gen 5 that has caused many creative Pokemon and sets to vanish from the tier, leaving it feeling more bland than Gen 4 despite a wider range of Pokemon and moves (or at least I feel so).

It's not that hard to be creative in BW OU. Plent of UU and even some RU pokemon have niches in OU that make them viable. Take Rotom-H, for instance. It's ability to counter things like Gliscor, Scizor, Mamoswine, Donphan, Ferrothorn, certain Heatran, Metagross, Venusaur, and the soon to be released Genesect is almost unmatched. While it does have a gaping weakness to Stealth Rock and Water/Rock type attacks, it's unique typing and solid offensive coverage makes it viable in OU, especially on a Sun team.

Another example is Stoutland. With Sand Rush, Stoutland outspeeds the majority of the metagame with a solid base 120 speed. Slap a Choice Band onto the terrier and you have terrierfying (badum tsss) revenge killer. He's perfectly viable in OU.

On topic: I feel that weather isn't broken at all. You simply fight fire with fire. There are plenty of people kicking and screaming about overcentralizing, but we're not exactly seeing anyone taking action and moving to Clear Skies now are we?

 

[Dork Void]

It's not that hard to be creative in BW OU. Plent of UU and even some RU pokemon have niches in OU that make them viable. Take Rotom-H, for instance. It's ability to counter things like Gliscor, Scizor, Mamoswine, Donphan, Ferrothorn, certain Heatran, Metagross, Venusaur, and the soon to be released Genosect is almost unmatched. While it does have a gaping weakness to Stealth Rock and Water/Rock type attacks, it's unique typing and solid offensive coverage makes it viable in OU, especially on a Sun team.

Volcarona does most if not all of those things as well, and unlike Rotom-H it actually does something to the rest of the metagame coughcoughmostdeadlysweeperinthegamecoughcough. I've never seen anyone run Rotom-H in OU. Also, it doesn't counter Mamoswine since it can't switch in on Stone Edge at all-clean OHKO, just saying.

Another example is Stoutland. With Sand Rush, Stoutland outspeeds the majority of the metagame with a solid base 120 speed. Slap a Choice Band onto the terrier and you have terrierfying (badum tsss) revenge killer. He's perfectly viable in OU.

252 Atk Adamant Choice Banded Stoutland's boosted Retaliate takes out less than a third of Skarmory or Ferrothorn's health. Even its Wild Charge under the same scenario is a 3HKO on Skarm, meaning they win the exchange with Roost. Even the 4x Super Effective Fire Fang doesn't take out Ferrothorn in one hit. There's no way something like that can compare to Terrakion or Landorus.

On topic: I feel that weather isn't broken at all. You simply fight fire with fire. There are plenty of people kicking and screaming about overcentralizing, but we're not exactly seeing anyone taking action and moving to Clear Skies now are we?

Nobody is ever on the Clear Skies tier on the Pokemon Online or Smogon Servers. I play normal BW OU only because I can't play Clear Skies and get more than 1 match in a day.

 

[bacon]

I understand what you're saying, but do note that Haxorus gets outsped by most of OU (whereas Keldeo is only outsped by 2 of the least common OU Pokemon, Jolteon and Tornadus) and Terrakion needs Choice Band to break through physical walls, leaving it weak to good predictions, while Keldeo merely needs the rain, which comes with no such weakness.

My point was more that trying to gauge usefulness with damage calcs is obviously fruitless. But since you brought it up, Terrakion can nuke pretty much everything with a Swords Dance set and doesn't rely upon a weather condition to maintain its power output, making it absolutely comparable to than Keldeo on paper. However Terrakion isn't uber at all, because it can be beaten through clever play and conditions which aren't covered by simple theorymon scenarios (what if Keldeo doesn't get the room to Calm Mind? What if entry hazards are on the field? What if bringing in Keldeo is actually a liability for the user?).

Now please note, I'm not actually saying that Keldeo is or isn't uber. But the point is that we simply don't know at this point in time, so it irks me when people already claim it's too powerful when all we have to go by is some damage calcs, which happen to be matched by equally dangerous threats sitting comfortably in OU.

Also, there are actually loads of Pokemon who can outrun Keldeo. And let's not think purely OU here either.

The point in making Kyogre and Groudon only allowed at level 78 was that at that level their stats were comparative to other things in the OU tier, meaning the only reason for them still to be Uber even then was their abilities.

I know, but come now. Lvl 78 Kyogre still has very respectable stats (SpA ~ base 110 for example). Now I ain't saying that weather wasn't a part of the ban (it sure was), but Kyogre also provided a lot more support than just Rain. Also, I'm pretty sure that a) These guys didn't play with the Swift Swim complex ban (correct me if I'm wrong), b) Played it in 5th gen (I mean a 4th gen test is really just not relevant now) and c) high profile enough to accumulate a sufficient number of players to allow the metagame to balance into a stable state.

Considering it was somewhere in the hundreds last gen, I would say that #33, or even top 50 or wherever its at in the higher ratings is still a huge jump, probably bigger than anything seen before, except maybe Blaziken (which is really not a fair comparison, Blaziken was only not used the gen before mostly because Infernape outsped it, with Speed Boost it outclasses Infernape in that way, meanwhile Gastrodon would still be outclassed by Rotom-W or Swampert if its ability was the only thing to change). That drastic a change in response to one play style is perhaps the definition of overcentralization.

It's not the definition that people use at all (it's not even a word, but still). Over-centralisation would correspond to people using the same stuff constantly, with highly specialised counters also having extreme usage. This doesn't apply to Gastrodon because 1) It's nowhere close to being a highly used Pokemon and 2) It's a good Pokemon in its own right and isn't used purely to beat rain. It was a big jump between 4th gen and 5th gen because... Storm Drain got an awesome buff.

If something rises in usage from UU, great! But why does that indicate "over-centralisation"?

 

[PG24]

Just going to put this down now that Keldeo is 99% hype at this point. If you're looking only at the calcs, then sure, I guess it's broken by your weird definition of broken. Me and Bippa have been testing (like, y'know, actually playing with it) a Keldeo metagame and I can just say here and now that it's nowhere near broken. It's not just "oh it got in a CM it's gg." It's so easy to check and counter (BU Toxicroak rofl's at the Pony). Keep in mind here that it has to actually get in the CM to start raping, and that's not a simple task. If you compare it to actual broken Pokemon like Blaziken and Excadrill, you see an obvious difference.

Also, keep in mind that this is theorymon on a Pokemon not even released. Bringing Keldeo into this discussion is a silly point. I only posted that bit in the OP to show the pure power just weather can bring. Clearly a bad move on my part. >_>

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Fun fact to start my post: I have never used Gastrodon.

Stats are not very reliable this gen. Way more than half the accounts that contribute to these stats are ranked below 1000. That translates to the results. There are some top tier Pokemon that are ranked very low and some higher Pokemon that don't deserve to be there. The 1337 stats are a little bit better, but I still don't completely trust them either. I know what is used in tournaments and those results are not reflected on the ladder.

As for my opinion on weather, I don't think its broken. It is a centralizing force in the metagame that you would except from any tier that sees a lot of activity. You wouldn't make a team that is weak to Rain just like you wouldn't make a team that is weak to Terrakion. That's why I kind of chuckle at Pokemon like Gastrodon seeing so much usage because they do have some utility on certain teams, but people cling to it for an easy answer to Rain. If a team strategy is solid enough you won't have to fill out your team with a Pokemon like Gastrodon unless it fits into your teams concept. That would be like sticking Blissey on an offensive team in DPP because you are weak to Jolteon and Starmie. Those teams never do well.

As for Garchomp, it has always been a top tier threat since it was released. Sand Veil only puts it over the top. It is arguably broken without the ability. Garchomp has greater bulk than Swampert, which, ironically, is also OU even though I never see anyone using it. When you throw in a unique speed tier, Dragon- and Ground-typing, and Swords Dance it is still the same Pokemon. The only thing is that instead of potentially losing a whole team to a miss, you only lose one or two Pokemon because you are able to reliably revenge kill it.

Fun fact to end my post: Though Kyogre and Groudon are still broken in OU with level balance, they still have the same move pool which includes, but is not limited to: Calm Mind, Water Spout, Surf, Ice Beam, Thunder, Rest, Sleep Talk, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Stealth Rock, and Roar.

 

[Guts]

Having weather without Pokemon to abuse it is a fruitless idea; one cannot exist without the other. Almost any Pokemon can benefit from weather in some way, so we can't necessarily just ban 75% of usable Pokemon in OU. Therefore, the problem lies within weather. If you play to win, either you beat weather teams at their own game, or find a team that specifically counters them. OU is advancing little by little to a more Uber-like atmosphere, from what I've seen. Just my thoughts.

 

[Limitless]

Have to say weather.
What made the Swift Swim Pokemon uber? Drizzle.
What made Excadrill uber? Sandstream (technically, Sand Rush. But Sand Rush is worthless without Sand Stream).
What took Garchomp from being a solid Pokemon to uber? Sandstream (A miss can cost you the game, but the miss only happens with Sandstream active).

This isn't a valid argument at all. I can do the same exact thing as you:

What made the Swift Swim Pokemon uber? Swift Swim.
What made Excadrill uber? His unique speed combined with the ability to Rapid Spin. Thus, it's able to be useful in both offensive and defensive teams.
What took Garchomp from being a solid Pokemon to uber? Sand Veil.

It's simply a matter of interpretation. When you ban a weather, you're not just banning one playstyle. Instead, you're banning every type of playstyle that is played with that weather. It's much more logical to ban the Pokemon.

There are two more points I'd like to bring up. The first is Gastrodon. This slug went from NU to OU within three months because of its ability to counter a fair chunk of rain teams. Are rain teams that centralizing that a Pokemon that no one paid any mind to suddenly becomes a star? Apparently so.

I have never heard of any "good" player using Gastradon to counter rain. Would Gastradon counter rain stall? No. Would it counter a Hurricane from either Dragonite, Volcorana, or Torn? No. Thus, it's not a star.

I've bolded the word centered for a reason. Things are banned because they are centralizing. Was Garchomp centralizing? Apparently so. Is Rain centralizing? YES, as proven by Gastrodon.

If Scizor's usage goes up, are you saying that Haxorus is centralizing? Your argument only holds true if the usage skyrockets to make a derivative that is very steep.

I personally feel that weather should be banned. It is the main contributor to the power creep in Gen 5 that has caused many creative Pokemon and sets to vanish from the tier, leaving it feeling more bland than Gen 4 despite a wider range of Pokemon and moves (or at least I feel so).

I don't know about you, but the top of the ladder (1500+) hasn't seen this much diversity in a long time. I'm seeing teams with Espeon, Deoxys-D, and Rhyperior creeping into those higher tiers. It's all about using a Pokemon in a niche role.

Just going to put this down now that Keldeo is 99% hype at this point. If you're looking only at the calcs, then sure, I guess it's broken by your weird definition of broken. Me and Bippa have been testing (like, y'know, actually playing with it) a Keldeo metagame and I can just say here and now that it's nowhere near broken. It's not just "oh it got in a CM it's gg." It's so easy to check and counter (BU Toxicroak rofl's at the Pony). Keep in mind here that it has to actually get in the CM to start raping, and that's not a simple task. If you compare it to actual broken Pokemon like Blaziken and Excadrill, you see an obvious difference.

The power of Keldeo will solely be in operating like how a Dragonite would be used to break an opposing team's steel walls. Dragonite likely doesn't sweep through Nat and Jirachi, but it will definitely leave a dent. Essentially, Keldeo will now make Special Heavy Offense usable for the first time this generation.


Lastly, I don't understand why everyone is talking about Keldeo in rain. The thing that people really should be worrying about is its ability to break down special walls with it's special based move that does physical damage. With Explosion getting nerfed this generation, this provides an opening for its usage.

Edit:

@ ShadowLugia, how is "any Pokemon benefiting from a weather" making any Pokemon unbearable to stand in the Overused metagame?

 

[Guts]

I'm not saying weather makes Pokemon broken. But if you have a Pokemon on a weather team, it should benefit from weather in some way. They might not be game-changing benefits, but weather has too big of an affect to simply ignore.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Having weather without Pokemon to abuse it is a fruitless idea; one cannot exist without the other. Almost any Pokemon can benefit from weather in some way, so we can't necessarily just ban 75% of usable Pokemon in OU. Therefore, the problem lies within weather. If you play to win, either you beat weather teams at their own game, or find a team that specifically counters them. OU is advancing little by little to a more Uber-like atmosphere, from what I've seen. Just my thoughts.

There is no problem. That's the thing.

 

[Complexy990]

There is no problem. That's the thing.

^ this.

 

[Guts]

Personally I think that the weather makes for a much less varying meta, but it shouldn't be banned by any means. Perhaps the use of the word "Problem" was not the best fit for the situation. Any way you slice it, weather is centralizing, and I guess that is what gets everyone bent out of shape.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Centralization is a good thing, otherwise the metagame is just a crapshoot.