Anyone got info on day 2 of San Jose? Just wondering which Zoroark variant got first 
Event Dallas Regionals Expanded Metagame Predictions
- Thread starter InfinityFyre
- Start date
Here is the 2nd place listAnyone got info on day 2 of San Jose? Just wondering which Zoroark variant got first
Pokemon - 20
4 Zorua SHL 52
3 Zoroark-GX SHL 53
1 Zoroark BKT 91
3 Rockruff GRI 73
2 Lycanroc-GX GRI 74
3 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
1 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
1 Sudowoodo GRI 66
1 Exeggcute PLF 4
1 Oricorio GRI 56
Trainer - 34
2 Professor Juniper PLB 84
2 N FCO 105
1 Brigette BKT 134
1 Colress PLS 118
1 Guzma BUS 115
1 Acerola BUS 112
1 Hex Maniac AOR 75
1 Mallow GRI 127
4 VS Seeker PHF 109
4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
1 Pokemon Communication BLW 99
1 Field Blower GRI 125
1 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
1 Target Whistle PHF 106
1 Computer Search BCR 137
2 Choice Band GRI 121
2 Float Stone BKT 137
3 Sky Field ROS 89
Energy - 6
4 Double Colorless Energy SUM 136
2 Fighting Energy 6
If you want any other lists let me know i should be able to find most.
Got the winners list? I'm interested to see if Night March really did win and what techs they used.
I would say we will see some Night march as it stills reigns without any proper counters. We could see some Buzzwole decks too but that is more unlikely.
Pokemon - 21
4 Joltik PHF 26
4 Pumpkaboo PHF 44
4 Lampent PHF 42
2 Zorua SHL 52
2 Zoroark-GX SHL 53
3 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
1 Marshadow-GX BUS 80
Trainer - 35
3 Professor Juniper PLB 84
1 N FCO 105
1 Guzma BUS 115
1 Lysandre AOR 78
1 Teammates PRC 141
1 Ghetsis PLF 101
1 Hex Maniac AOR 75
4 VS Seeker PHF 109
4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
4 Battle Compressor PHF 92
4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
3 Trainer's Mail ROS 92
1 Field Blower GRI 125
1 Special Charge STS 105
1 Dowsing Machine PLS 128
1 Choice Band GRI 121
1 Float Stone BKT 137
2 Dimension Valley PHF 93
Energy - 4
4 Double Colorless Energy SUM 136
Ok. Control is a bit in my wheelhouse. So I have predictions for Dallas from what we saw at San Jose:
WAILORD: we have two variants: ‘Beached Whale’ and post-2015 Nats build. Big difference is that one costs $50 to build. The other costs $850 to build. I don’t think anyone is going to really account much for Wailord, especially the top 8 Wailord deck due to the fact that you need 4 Tropical Beach. Basically, we are looking at the ‘new Primal Groudon’. I think that if Beached Whale were to show up in Dallas, it could make a deep run. Post-2015 Nate/Budget Wailord CAN do okay. It’s not top 32 material because it has a tendency to burn through its hands dishing out disruption and not recover from it. Again, it COULD be successful, but the way both Wailord decks are built are extremely different.
TREVENANT: I figured changing all it Hammers to Enhanced Hammer and maybe running a tech or two could save it. Nope. I can’t seem to make it work. Not going to completely write it off as I’m not the best Trev deck builder (it’s kind of a weird control deck to build with). Any match against Zoroark seems ‘uphill with roller skates’. They barely need a bench at all to kill the break and can hold onto their DCE until they are ready to go. Anyone who decides to run this in Dallas is either a masochist or an EXTREMELY skilled Trev player (like Bob Zhang skilled) that can build a perfect meta-adapted version. If you can find a way to make a favorable Zoroark matchup, you have a shot. Otherwise, play something else.
SABLEYE-GARB - San Jose was the first Expanded regional of the season where this deck show up in top 32. In fact, it got outright flattened Day 1. There was a bit more hype surrounding it this time around and people were expecting it more, some adding some general and deck-specific techs. I haven’t heard or seen anything from anyone who played it there, but I can almost assure you that Counter Catcher, Gladion, and Peeking Red Card we’re not enough. I did hear that the deck was played by quite a bit. But this isn’t a deck you can build the night before and do wel with unless you have some chops.
I think that the deck needs to seriously adapt to what the meta is right now. Big one is maybe doing away with Crushing Hammer and replace them all with Enhanced Hammer. Adding Teammates if it isn’t already, maybe doing away with Delinquent, maybe changing the garbodor line to 2 Garbotoxin 1 Trashalanche to shut off Trade and company.
I don’t think the deck is down and out. But it needs a face-lift, tummy-tuck, some liposuction, and augmentation.
I’m no expert by any means. I could very well be wrong about any of this. Any thoughts?
WAILORD: we have two variants: ‘Beached Whale’ and post-2015 Nats build. Big difference is that one costs $50 to build. The other costs $850 to build. I don’t think anyone is going to really account much for Wailord, especially the top 8 Wailord deck due to the fact that you need 4 Tropical Beach. Basically, we are looking at the ‘new Primal Groudon’. I think that if Beached Whale were to show up in Dallas, it could make a deep run. Post-2015 Nate/Budget Wailord CAN do okay. It’s not top 32 material because it has a tendency to burn through its hands dishing out disruption and not recover from it. Again, it COULD be successful, but the way both Wailord decks are built are extremely different.
TREVENANT: I figured changing all it Hammers to Enhanced Hammer and maybe running a tech or two could save it. Nope. I can’t seem to make it work. Not going to completely write it off as I’m not the best Trev deck builder (it’s kind of a weird control deck to build with). Any match against Zoroark seems ‘uphill with roller skates’. They barely need a bench at all to kill the break and can hold onto their DCE until they are ready to go. Anyone who decides to run this in Dallas is either a masochist or an EXTREMELY skilled Trev player (like Bob Zhang skilled) that can build a perfect meta-adapted version. If you can find a way to make a favorable Zoroark matchup, you have a shot. Otherwise, play something else.
SABLEYE-GARB - San Jose was the first Expanded regional of the season where this deck show up in top 32. In fact, it got outright flattened Day 1. There was a bit more hype surrounding it this time around and people were expecting it more, some adding some general and deck-specific techs. I haven’t heard or seen anything from anyone who played it there, but I can almost assure you that Counter Catcher, Gladion, and Peeking Red Card we’re not enough. I did hear that the deck was played by quite a bit. But this isn’t a deck you can build the night before and do wel with unless you have some chops.
I think that the deck needs to seriously adapt to what the meta is right now. Big one is maybe doing away with Crushing Hammer and replace them all with Enhanced Hammer. Adding Teammates if it isn’t already, maybe doing away with Delinquent, maybe changing the garbodor line to 2 Garbotoxin 1 Trashalanche to shut off Trade and company.
I don’t think the deck is down and out. But it needs a face-lift, tummy-tuck, some liposuction, and augmentation.
I’m no expert by any means. I could very well be wrong about any of this. Any thoughts?
I would say that wailord will remain underplayed due to the lack of beaches, but is a very good play if you can get beaches.
I also agree with your trev statements dead unless super good.
Dont think it changes anything but the 2nd place junior deck was sablyeye.
Hey, thanks for your insight!
I was pretty surprised Wailord topped (I thought this deck was past dead lol) and I really wish I had some beaches so I could try it out as it looks pretty darn good against a lot of the meta right now.
I think that Zoroark GX is going to completely infest Dallas, so any trevanant decks are going to be utterly destroyed. Trees are 100% dead in this meta. Primal Groudon appears to be pretty darn good due to the abundance of fighting-weak Pokemon running around, but obviously won't see much play due to beaches being crucial to the deck.
I'm honestly not sure where Night March is going to end up. It's just off a regionals win, and frankly, I don't see it getting much more hate than it already gets. I mean, every deck is running at least Karen or Oricorio, or in some cases a combination of both. People are obviously going to choose to lay it just cause its it won the most previous tournament. Trev obviously won't be played as a NM counter because of all the Zoroark decks and because optimal NM lists now run 2-2 Zoroark GX. There could definitely be a big uptick in Toad-based decks. I could see Toad-Tina showing its face because of the sheer number of DCE/Special energy reliant decks running around right now (Night March, Zoroark Builds, etc)
Sableye/Garb is a pretty interesting deck as it really doesn't have a auto-loss or even 'bad' matchups. The worse ones are obviously item-lock decks, but its already been pretty much established the Trev is done for and there are some pretty nifty tricks the deck has fore beating Toad-based decks, foremost among which is paralleling yourself to reduce there damage to 10 (20 if they have a Fighting Fury Belt) and using Trubbish's Collection attack (I think that's what its called) to recycle Team Flare Grunt/Xerosic to get rid of all their DCE's. All they run in terms of energy recovery is at best a special charge. Removing all Crushing Hammers and swapping them for E Hammers is a pretty unique idea, and I can't say I don't like this idea. 2 Garbotoxin are 100% (and have always been) necessary, but I'm honestly not at all sold on Traschalanche at all, because I have NEVER used it in a single game, and I play this deck a lot. Counter Catcher is downright busted in this deck, to the point where I'm really considering adding a 2nd copy. Being able to Lysandre/Guzma is always good, but if they get float stone or an energy (the main issue), they just kill you Sableye again. Counter Catcher allows you to TFG first, then drag something else out, so the odds of them attacking you decrease drastically. Ghetsis is also a card I'm also not at all sold on, mainly because it's so reliant on luck. Ghetsis-ing a NM player's entire hand away is always awesome, but that usually doesn't happen, and if they have a draw supporter, you lose a turn of momentum which is REALLY bad for Sable/Garb. I feel like Delinquent should stay because you don't use it that often, but delinquent to 0, and then using trick shovel to deny them any useful cards it stupidly good.
One deck that might get some hype leading into dallas is gyarados with its top 8 showing.
It has good matchups against gardevoir and zoroark simply due to being a 1 prizer, so its worth consideration.
Another deck that has been getting some small talk and couls be worth testing is "Student Loans". If you dont know its an old deck from 2014 that used landerous and dusknoir for relentless spread that has been recreated. It got t64 masters and won juniors. One used buzzwole and the other used tapu koko.
I can get lists for any of the 3 and would say both are potentially really good for dallas.
It has good matchups against gardevoir and zoroark simply due to being a 1 prizer, so its worth consideration.
Another deck that has been getting some small talk and couls be worth testing is "Student Loans". If you dont know its an old deck from 2014 that used landerous and dusknoir for relentless spread that has been recreated. It got t64 masters and won juniors. One used buzzwole and the other used tapu koko.
I can get lists for any of the 3 and would say both are potentially really good for dallas.
Gyarados has awesome matchups against any Gx/Ex based decks, but item lock absolutely annihilates it and it has trouble trading with Night March. I'd love to see this buzzwole/duscknoir list though
in the limited testing i have done this is good but i like the koko build much better
No problem! Let's get to it!
Honestly, I've been looking into the deck since Fort Wayne. I never would have figured out the Beach version (mainly because I don't have BEaches. And if I can't get access to it, chances are I wouldn't build it). But it had a good matchup against 50% of the meta. Now that it's very low energy amount AND special energy heavy, Wailord has the chance to thrive a bit more. Unfortunately, because of violent meta shifts, some of the decks Wailord would be doing decent against are outdated. Big one off the top of my head is Trevenant....mainly because of Rough Seas. And now we're in semantics territory.
I agree with the first part: Completely agree that Zoroark will infest Dallas, especially since we are not receiving any new cards. Whatever is good now is going to get refined and sharpened. I expect to see pretty much every variant of Zoroark we saw in San Jose with slight modifications (maybe even a Zorark-Crabominable for a Zoroark counter deck...something I saw on Reddit). The only one I don't think will be popular would be the Golisopod variant, despite Jon Eng sitting at the very top of the mountain on Day 1. Zoroark-Golisopod seemed to be the least successful *popular* variant. There were a BUNCH of variants out there, but of the popular ones, it did the worst.
Primal Groudon? Deck is deeeeeeead.
Tapu Lele GX being Jirachi EX, but psychic; that ensured that Primal Groudon throwing up a Wobbuffet in the active at the start of the game is ineffective. And the hits just kept coming. The deck was duing a time where the meta wasn't as FAST and AGGRESSIVE as it is now. It was a PAINFULLY SLOW deck in a meta where it's speed wasn't an incredibly bad crutch--it was just more of a known factor, and it thrived. Golisopod hits it for weakness. Gardy kills it with zero effort. Everything outspeeds it.
On top of the deck being $800-$1,000 to build.
Michael Pramawat's build. Start there!
Here's the thing. The anti-Night March counters we have so heavilly relied on (Karen and Oricorio). I don't think are effective anymore with Zoroark in the picture. I'[m going to call it now: I think these new Night March builds may start incorporating their own Karens to throw other Night March decks off balance and simultaneously help them out (assuming they have the resources available to set themselves up for Zoroark plays). This would also mean that Oricorio wouldn't be as effective as it should be. And with that, Night March is now a deck that we do not have a hard counter to. Similar to Gardevoir: it's a deck that either your deck is good against or it isn't. I don't think it's wise to tech for Night March anymore. Either play something that is either effective or matches evenly against it, or get ready to take a big fat 'L' to it.
Plus, Night March has now taken 1st place at 2 out of the three Expanded regionals we have had all season. I'm starting to wonder how effective Karen and Oricorio really are.
I agree that item lock could be a strong contender--however, I think that the only viable option would be Toad-Serviper (the one that top 8 in Daytona). The big reason is that Giratina EX is SUPER energy heavy and I think that EVERYONE that's running a 56-59 card deck will be filling the rest of their deck with Enhanced Hammers. Getting 2 Dragon Energy, or Dragon and 1 DCE is going to be tough--especially since Chaos Wheel won't stop a stray Enhanced. Besides, it has a decent spread across the board (it does terrible against Gardevoir decks that tech Comfey, otherwise it's pretty even) and some adjustments for a more energy disruptive build may give it better matchups against Zoroark builds.
If you're using Lysandre still, it needs to be a Counter Catcher instead. Ghetsis is a bit of a skill based card in this deck. Them holding onto a supporter sucks. Them having a Zoroark out sucks. At this point, I think it's best used in decks that are more aggro-centric and can capitalize off of disorienting the opponent for a good turn or 2. Sableye-Garb doesn't really do that. Thanks to Zoroark, we can't put the opponent in topdeck mode anymore. Then again, most Zoroark deck have stuff that's worth shoveling off.
Delinquent works best when you're against a deck that is very stadium-aggressive. If more decks besides Zoroark variants are out to get a stadium out there ASAP, I'd find it worth running. But I'm starting to see that, especially the top 32 of San Jose, the decks that are stadium-aggressive DON'T CARE and can EASILY recover from Delinquent (you can Delinquent a Zoroark build to 0. They'll draw, then Propogate Exeggcute, sack it for trade and have a 3 card hand again. Given, they are only at 3 cards, but at the same time, they aren't exactly in topdeck mode.) OR the decks aren't stadium-aggressive and you're left having to bring your own stadium and fulfilling the requirement yourself, which isn't ideal at all (namely Gardevoir....and Delinquent sucks against them too!)
I'm not sure what exactly would help Sableye-Garb. But I think maybe going back to a 2-2 Garbodor line and focusing more on disruption is the way to go. IT's one direction to take it. Just not sure if thats the right direction.
Thanks for the list!
Just a heads up. Garbotoxin, which can consistently be online by turn 2, shuts off ALL abilities like Trade, Stand-In, and Propogation, so the Zoroark player's top decks can be controlled by the Sableye player as he would most other decks. Also, Delinquent is in the deck to get rid of stadiums. Sableye/Garb couldn't care less up the stadium in play 99% of the time. Delinquent is all about getting their hand to 0.
I don’t know. I’m not a big fan of Garbodor and I’ve been looking into other, and weirder, cards to use with Sableye.
I know that Garbodor is good, I just don’t think it does enough.
Trust me, Garbodor is absolutely essential to the deck. It stops Keldeos Rush In, Zoroark Trade, greninja's Giant water shurikan, etc. There are so many different abilities in expanded that make Sableye's game plan infinitely more difficult to pull off. However, I would be interested in what you may have in mind. I was thinking Dralgage from Dragons Exalted, which has an ability which prevents your opponents Poisoned Pokemon from retreating in tandem with Hypnotoxic Laser for some incredibly irritating stall shenanigans. The Slowking from Breakpoint with the Royal Flash ability that allows you to move an energy from your opponents active Pokemon to 1 of their benched Pokemon if you flip heads and you can just pile it onto something useless. But I'm sure there is a plethora of super annoying partners for Sableye!
Let's do this!
I agree to a small degree. I agree that on a very general level of things, getting Garbodor out quick CAN put off a lot of support Pokemon abilities. It doesn't do much to stop Gardy, but it does hamper their draw engine severely. So hopefully they don't have a good setup going by the time you get Garb online.
Shutting off Trade, I can see that. Keldeo EX and Greninja. Keldeo is almost exclusive to Archie's Blastoise and Mega Rayquaza. Mega Ray has fallen to the wayside as Zoroark hits almost as hard and the deck is less glass-cannon. Archie's Blastoise is a weird deck. In the current meta, it has....okay matchups. You can't see it, but was squinting my eyes and shrugging my shoulders when I said that. A lot of its success seems to live and die on how fast it can Archie's a Blastoise out. Other than the recent inclusion of Wishiwashi GX, the deck hasn't really evolved at all. The only way that deck would even do well in Dallas is by an expert hand....and even then, they have to be running hot all D1.
Greninja is a HUGE non-issue. Win your first 2 matches and your chances of seeing Greninja for the rest of the day drop by 100%
I've been working on this frige variant build since 3 days before the Daytona regional. Prior to Zoroark, it either had the same or better matchups than regular Sableye (even has a favorable 75-25 against Gardevoir). If I can somehow figure out how to effectively navigate the Zoroark variants (I'll probably need some coaching from a premium site just to get a second opinion and to see if it's doable or hopeless) It'll be extremely annoying for people. I won't tip my hand yet, but it's almost there. I currently have 2 card slots that I'm toying with to see if I can get any leverage in the Zoroark matchups (at the moment, it's looking to either be unfavorable to even against the Night March variant....and I know for a fact that other Zoroark variants aren't going to go any better, or even worse). But I will say that it doesn't run Guzma or Field Blower.
Draglage is a neat idea, I have messed around with the idea of using Hypnotoxic Laser in Sableye. Either that or Nihilego with a focus on AZ and Skyarrow Bridge Or Chaos Tower. Draglage for good measure.
That Slowking. I have wanted to use that card ever since I have got back in the game. I can see it punishing most of the Zoroark variants except Night March...since everything they bench is either dangerous or a Shaymin--who can Sky Return if necessary.
I agree to a small degree. I agree that on a very general level of things, getting Garbodor out quick CAN put off a lot of support Pokemon abilities. It doesn't do much to stop Gardy, but it does hamper their draw engine severely. So hopefully they don't have a good setup going by the time you get Garb online.
Shutting off Trade, I can see that. Keldeo EX and Greninja. Keldeo is almost exclusive to Archie's Blastoise and Mega Rayquaza. Mega Ray has fallen to the wayside as Zoroark hits almost as hard and the deck is less glass-cannon. Archie's Blastoise is a weird deck. In the current meta, it has....okay matchups. You can't see it, but was squinting my eyes and shrugging my shoulders when I said that. A lot of its success seems to live and die on how fast it can Archie's a Blastoise out. Other than the recent inclusion of Wishiwashi GX, the deck hasn't really evolved at all. The only way that deck would even do well in Dallas is by an expert hand....and even then, they have to be running hot all D1.
Greninja is a HUGE non-issue. Win your first 2 matches and your chances of seeing Greninja for the rest of the day drop by 100%
However, I would be interested in what you may have in mind. I was thinking Dralgage from Dragons Exalted, which has an ability which prevents your opponents Poisoned Pokemon from retreating in tandem with Hypnotoxic Laser for some incredibly irritating stall shenanigans. The Slowking from Breakpoint with the Royal Flash ability that allows you to move an energy from your opponents active Pokemon to 1 of their benched Pokemon if you flip heads and you can just pile it onto something useless. But I'm sure there is a plethora of super annoying partners for Sableye!
I've been working on this frige variant build since 3 days before the Daytona regional. Prior to Zoroark, it either had the same or better matchups than regular Sableye (even has a favorable 75-25 against Gardevoir). If I can somehow figure out how to effectively navigate the Zoroark variants (I'll probably need some coaching from a premium site just to get a second opinion and to see if it's doable or hopeless) It'll be extremely annoying for people. I won't tip my hand yet, but it's almost there. I currently have 2 card slots that I'm toying with to see if I can get any leverage in the Zoroark matchups (at the moment, it's looking to either be unfavorable to even against the Night March variant....and I know for a fact that other Zoroark variants aren't going to go any better, or even worse). But I will say that it doesn't run Guzma or Field Blower.
Draglage is a neat idea, I have messed around with the idea of using Hypnotoxic Laser in Sableye. Either that or Nihilego with a focus on AZ and Skyarrow Bridge Or Chaos Tower. Draglage for good measure.
That Slowking. I have wanted to use that card ever since I have got back in the game. I can see it punishing most of the Zoroark variants except Night March...since everything they bench is either dangerous or a Shaymin--who can Sky Return if necessary.
Okay. Been testing a lot more. I'm really less confident in Sableye-Garb variants in handling certain matchups (namely anything with Zoroark). Which sucks. 2 months of work just....gone.
Sableye-Garb is really iffy. I've seen some lists that have been topping at cups. They are beating whats out now, but I feel that if you take these builds (which look like they are meant to directly counter Zoroark builds); I think they aren't going to perform well in Dallas because of the sheer variety of what will be played, as opposed to a League Cup where it's a smaller pool and probably mostly meta. I feel that in order to directly counter Zoroark, you have to compromise a bit on your toolbox, and that'd be enough for other decks to zing you. Especially since it has a sort of even/favorable spread amongst the current meta. I feel that if you build hard against Zoroark, your matchup spread inevitably balances in other, possibly negative ways.
I don't know. I've done a little bit of testing with Sableye-Garb again. Might be the jitters as we are starting to close in on Dallas, but I'm really not comfortable with running the deck with where we are at now.
If it isn't obvious by now. If you want to do good, bring a deck that can break even/have positive matchups against Zoroark-anything.
That said, I feel like even though Gardy is in a good position right now. It didn't have a very spectacular (or rather noteworthy) run in San Jose. I mean, 2 Gardy decks made top 32. I don't think the decks were ever posted to social media, leading me to believe that the deck hasn't (and isn't) going to change for Dallas. I feel like Gardy has got to the point to where it's as good as it's going to get. I don't want to say it's a losing play, but it won't win Dallas. Unless I've missed something, I'm not sure theres anything you can do in Gardy that can improve its matchups since its rather tight in deckspace and can't tech for everything.
Sableye-Garb is really iffy. I've seen some lists that have been topping at cups. They are beating whats out now, but I feel that if you take these builds (which look like they are meant to directly counter Zoroark builds); I think they aren't going to perform well in Dallas because of the sheer variety of what will be played, as opposed to a League Cup where it's a smaller pool and probably mostly meta. I feel that in order to directly counter Zoroark, you have to compromise a bit on your toolbox, and that'd be enough for other decks to zing you. Especially since it has a sort of even/favorable spread amongst the current meta. I feel that if you build hard against Zoroark, your matchup spread inevitably balances in other, possibly negative ways.
I don't know. I've done a little bit of testing with Sableye-Garb again. Might be the jitters as we are starting to close in on Dallas, but I'm really not comfortable with running the deck with where we are at now.
If it isn't obvious by now. If you want to do good, bring a deck that can break even/have positive matchups against Zoroark-anything.
That said, I feel like even though Gardy is in a good position right now. It didn't have a very spectacular (or rather noteworthy) run in San Jose. I mean, 2 Gardy decks made top 32. I don't think the decks were ever posted to social media, leading me to believe that the deck hasn't (and isn't) going to change for Dallas. I feel like Gardy has got to the point to where it's as good as it's going to get. I don't want to say it's a losing play, but it won't win Dallas. Unless I've missed something, I'm not sure theres anything you can do in Gardy that can improve its matchups since its rather tight in deckspace and can't tech for everything.