Debate: What is the "Real Value" of a Card?

Empoleon_master

Empoleon_master

I can stop watching Anime any time I don't want to
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I've been playing pokemon for 5 years or so and this rarely comes up, but when it does no one has a solid answer. It's kind of like debating what exactly a god is, you take 10 really smart people ask them the question and they all have different answers with no consensus, just a lot of yelling.

So, let me ask you guys, what is the "real value" of a card? Here are the arguments I've heard that I can remember, for multiple people. The "real value" of a card is: Counter arguments are in parenthesis

Its competitive value.
The completed listings on ebay. (no, that's what people jacked them up to on ebay)
The listed price on Troll and Toad as of some XY set as they started being good about that as of that set. (no that's the price they sell them at to make money)
The listed price on Amazon as their prices are consistent. (see T&T argument)
The listed price on X website I haven't heard of.
How common it is to get via packs. (no, there could be cards that are common but are worth a dollar like Wobbutfett)
How much it is worth to the person getting it/what they value it at.
The price on Pokeprices with the possible average of 3 days of prices. (I'll admit I do this) (no, that's only because people on pokeprices jacked up the price to that much because they're selling them there. *note there is no selling etc on pokeprices so that argument is BS* "Still, that's not the 'real value' of the card"

So, people of Pokebeach what do YOU think the "real value" of a card is? And if there is one why is it so hard to find?
 
I think the real value is the average of which people sell the card for.
 
bbninjas said:
I think the real value is the average of which people sell the card for.
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I would argue that instead the real value is what people are willing to pay for it. I can choose to sell this coffee-stained Pikachu card for €100 but that doesn't mean anyone will bite. :p It's the buyers that truly set the value for what cards (or anything, for that matter) are worth.

And that is why many non-retail sellers specifically use the "Sold Listings" value on Ebay for valuation checks. If you just look at listings, you'll see values throughout a pretty large range, but the sold listings tell you "Oh, look, people actually really did buy X card for Y price". One sold example could certainly be a fluke, but once you get 2, 3, etc. people buying a certain card around a certain price range, that gives you a decent idea of its value.
 
Empoleon_master said:
Counter reply to that that I've heard before, "That's only the price people are selling it at to make money."
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Well, tbh, you are most likely going to be buying a card from someone that is trying to make money, so yeah?

Although Thena makes more sense so listen to her.
 
I concur with Athena on this one. The best way to gauge value is to look at sold listings, because that cuts out all of the unsold noise you see floating around online where the seller can set the price at anything.

And I think something important to remember for this topic is that value is always in a state of flux. A card can have a ton of competitive value right now but obviously it'll be rotated out at some point and will lose value unless it also has collector value (e.g. full arts, popular Pokemon, etc). Newer, more common sets right now don't have a lot a value now but might in the future when they're out of print and not as accessible, and so forth.
 
Athena said:
I would argue that instead the real value is what people are willing to pay for it. I can choose to sell this coffee-stained Pikachu card for €100 but that doesn't mean anyone will bite. :p It's the buyers that truly set the value for what cards (or anything, for that matter) are worth.

And that is why many non-retail sellers specifically use the "Sold Listings" value on Ebay for valuation checks. If you just look at listings, you'll see values throughout a pretty large range, but the sold listings tell you "Oh, look, people actually really did buy X card for Y price". One sold example could certainly be a fluke, but once you get 2, 3, etc. people buying a certain card around a certain price range, that gives you a decent idea of its value.
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I am going to play a hole's advocate here and from now on any time I do so it will be in bright red text. I don't mean anything against you etc, these are just the BS counter arguments I've heard to EVERYTHING.

That COULD be the value of the card, but not the competitive value of the card, it could be a collectors item and suck otherwise, so the Real Value of the card isn't worth THAT much, really.
 
Empoleon_master said:
That COULD be the value of the card, but not the competitive value of the card, it could be a collectors item and suck otherwise, so the Real Value of the card isn't worth THAT much, really.
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Why does that "real" value have to be solely the "competitive" value? Any proper valuation of a card should take into account ALL factors that could contribute to the card's worth, including competitive usefulness, collectibility, rarity, condition, etc.

In practical, Pokémon TCG terms, however, competitive usefulness is actually a bigger factor in card value for current modified format cards than anything else. Cards that are more readily easy to pull but are commonly used in the current metagame command much higher prices than cards from the same set that are rare to pull but competitively useless. Within the same category, the playable card is always worth significantly more. This is mostly because current cards are so mass produced that there isn't as high of a collector's demand for them compared to the player demand, and therefore the players dominate the market. In some cases, player demand is so strong that it even infiltrates the foreign card market, which is traditionally dominated by collectors (when sold outside of the card's language's region, anyway). Once cards are out of the modified (or extended) format, they lose their playability and experience a tremendous drop in value.

tl;dr: If you're buying cards for the current format(s), then the prices you see on ebay already reflect the valuation of those cards as determined by players and therefore reflect the "competitive" value over any other factor. If you're buying out-of-format cards, then the cards have no "competitive" value anyway, so it's a moot point.

It should be noted that this kind of price comparison really only works when comparing cards in the same class, such as comparing a competitive EX to a non-competitive EX. Even a non-competitive EX will be worth more than, say, an uncommon trainer, even if the trainer in question is a useful metagame card. In this respect, the trainer has a higher pure "competitive" value than the EX... but that doesn't mean a player would trade away a $5 non-competitive EX card for a single $1 competitive trainer. And this is why all aspects of a card should be factored into any "real" valuation of the card.
 
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I have always gone with the idea that the value of a card is determined by an individual person.

For example someone could be selling a First Edition Shadowless Base Set Charizard for 1000 US dollars? Are you willing to pay that amount for the card? If you're thinking no because you have know several sellers that you could get it from them for less, then to you that card is not worth that value.

Now what someone else was selling that same card for 100 US dollars? Are you willing to pay that amount for the card? If you're saying that practically a steal then it's worth that value to you, and yet unknown to you that person was selling it because they accidently got it years ago, forgot about it, and then was just selling it to get rid of it, it had no value to them.

It's all a matter of perspective, really. Especially since at the core these cards are colorful pieces of plastic and some foil...or whatever the process is they use to make them. The point is it's we as the players/collectors that put value on these cards, and we each value them differently.
 
Athena said:
Why does that "real" value have to be solely the "competitive" value? Any proper valuation of a card should take into account ALL factors that could contribute to the card's worth, including competitive usefulness, collectibility, rarity, condition, etc.
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Indeed... I'm not really sure what @Empoleon_master is asking. I kind of do, but ultimately it seems like a vague question and as such, it's going to have several confusing, even contradicting answers.

After all, even if we restrict ourselves to the monetary value, that value will be affected by circumstances. Think of how goods and services are priced in the real world; there are things I can get for one price at discount store or even for less if I order a sufficient quantity online, but that isn't always the option. If I am in a real bind and need it now, I may have to swing by a convenience store to pick it up. Now it will cost me more money, but I'm paying for a convenient location where I can get in, get out and get the small quantity I need instead of figuring out the optimal purchase amount for a price discount (and whether or not I can make use of that amount before it expires). Yes, some places will still overcharge but often, when something seems overpriced but the business has been thriving for years it probably isn't meant for you. ;)

Now... imagine you need Card X but you're on the way to a tournament. Suddenly it is worth more to you than when you were looking for it a week ago and weren't sure if Card X was even going to be a part of your deck. Now imagine it is not only a high level tournament, but you're also a world class player and the favorite to win; if Card X is critical then its value is now the difference between first place and wherever you'll come in without it!

Once you get into other intangibles like "sentimental value" (including lack of value - not all of us value the "collectible" cards so highly) then it can get really crazy. ;)
 
Otaku said:
Indeed... I'm not really sure what @Empoleon_master is asking. I kind of do, but ultimately it seems like a vague question and as such, it's going to have several confusing, even contradicting answers.

After all, even if we restrict ourselves to the monetary value, that value will be affected by circumstances. Think of how goods and services are priced in the real world; there are things I can get for one price at discount store or even for less if I order a sufficient quantity online, but that isn't always the option. If I am in a real bind and need it now, I may have to swing by a convenience store to pick it up. Now it will cost me more money, but I'm paying for a convenient location where I can get in, get out and get the small quantity I need instead of figuring out the optimal purchase amount for a price discount (and whether or not I can make use of that amount before it expires). Yes, some places will still overcharge but often, when something seems overpriced but the business has been thriving for years it probably isn't meant for you. ;)

Now... imagine you need Card X but you're on the way to a tournament. Suddenly it is worth more to you than when you were looking for it a week ago and weren't sure if Card X was even going to be a part of your deck. Now imagine it is not only a high level tournament, but you're also a world class player and the favorite to win; if Card X is critical then its value is now the difference between first place and wherever you'll come in without it!

Once you get into other intangibles like "sentimental value" (including lack of value - not all of us value the "collectible" cards so highly) then it can get really crazy. ;)
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I guess what I meant it what is a card "really worth/actually worth?" It's a vague question but if you get into a card price dispute IRL the phrase or something similar is eventually going to get said. ie. "That's not the real value of it/that's not what it's ACTUALLY worth."

I do know it's vague and it is very hard to pin down the answer to, but there has to be a concise answer somewhere, and while I do think you guys have had very good answers, it seems like it will always be just out of reach.
 
I think the "real value" changes over time. If it's a particularly good card and it is tournament legal, it will be worth $X-amount, but as soon as it rotates, it usually sees a drop in value, sometimes dramatic, since the demand is not there. There's been many times I've seen this happen over the years.

After rotation the value is then found in collectibility. For instance, a full-art EX which saw a drop after rotation will begin to climb again, probably eventually to an amount above its competitive value, due to increasing demand. Age brings rarity, after all.

Likewise, popularity will determine value. Charizard cards are almost always worth more than similar cards, for instance. Or, personal preference also plays a role. I'd buy a mint Radiant Purrloin for a higher price than someone who doesn't care about Purrloin would.

So I guess I'd say the "real value" is dependent on a variety of factors, with time being one of them. Trying to reduce it down to only one single factor would only make reality seem weird, because you can't explain why a card would sell high one day and low the next, and then high again immediately after. :p
 
Well I kinda understand where you are coming from. People might value Kyogre EX from Dark Explorers at 10 dollars. You might think to yourself; This card is unplayable and I'd never pay 10 dollars for it...what is the real price of this card?
For you, the price is lower then what the seller is selling it at. Presumably, the seller has checked somewhere about that price and did not make it off his/her wazoo and is a price that people are willing to pay for that card. You might think that their price is unreasonable, whereas to other people that price seals a deal.

Usually, whatever the price of the card you are checking is the price of the card. Regardless of competitiveness, prettiness, etc.; the price of the card is the combined average of what people are buying it for. To some people, who value the card in a competitive standpoint, cards like Dragon Mega Rayquaza EX or either Mega Charizard EX are valueless. Yet, if you owned the card and wanted to trade it you wouldn't really say "well this card is worthless competitively, so I'll value it at a few bucks." The cards are worth somewhere between 20-40 dollars on ebay, so you wouldn't change the price because it isn't good competitively. All cards are valued on competitive standpoint and from a collectors standpoint. Rarity does not matter; Thundurus-EX has the same pull ratios as Shaymin-EX, but which one is worth 10x more?
 
Didn't really read any responses, but isn't the value of anything what people are willing to pay for it?
 
The value of any item is only what people will pay for it. As long as people will pay £25 for a Shaymin EX then that is what it's worth. But tbh money is only paper we put value to if you want to get real philosophical. So we are just trading paper for paper. So it all gets kinda weird at the end of the day. But one bit of paper can be used to win games that are played by two people who agree to follow a set of rules, the other bits can be used to trade for a wide variety of items like food and clothing and what have you. The philosophy of value is a weird topic.

But that is value. As for price, like how many paper bits (money) is this cardboard bit worth? Well that depends on how many are made, how useful it is in the game and how easy it is to find that particular card where you live.
 
Draaka said:
The value of any item is only what people will pay for it. As long as people will pay £25 for a Shaymin EX then that is what it's worth. But tbh money is only paper we put value to if you want to get real philosophical. So we are just trading paper for paper. So it all gets kinda weird at the end of the day. But one bit of paper can be used to win games that are played by two people who agree to follow a set of rules, the other bits can be used to trade for a wide variety of items like food and clothing and what have you. The philosophy of value is a weird topic.

But that is value. As for price, like how many paper bits (money) is this cardboard bit worth? Well that depends on how many are made, how useful it is in the game and how easy it is to find that particular card where you live.
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I think that's one of the best answers I've heard on this. *insert firework gifs here*
 
Draaka said:
The value of any item is only what people will pay for it. As long as people will pay £25 for a Shaymin EX then that is what it's worth. But tbh money is only paper we put value to if you want to get real philosophical. So we are just trading paper for paper. So it all gets kinda weird at the end of the day. But one bit of paper can be used to win games that are played by two people who agree to follow a set of rules, the other bits can be used to trade for a wide variety of items like food and clothing and what have you. The philosophy of value is a weird topic.

But that is value. As for price, like how many paper bits (money) is this cardboard bit worth? Well that depends on how many are made, how useful it is in the game and how easy it is to find that particular card where you live.
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...and now I'm depressed because I was reminded that so many countries (my own included) are on a "fiat" currency system. For example, in the U.S.A. the currency once was backed by gold held by the government; you could actually take a bill and exchange it for an amount of gold equal to its face value (so a $1 bill would get $1 worth of gold) if you so wished. Sadly now it works because people are just supposed to trust that the government in question will manage its resources (and debt) appropriately and that hasn't been happening.

Otherwise yes, the concept of money is to establish a common unit of trade so that we don't have to barter for everything (just the stuff where bartering is more useful or when we feel like it). The part where it gets "weird" is how we assign value to certain things even when there is no real logic to it: even "because its fun" makes sense, but it can be easy to become attached to something that isn't all that fun and still invest in it "just because". ;)
 
The "real value" of a card would be like what, barely anything? Its paper, of you count the production value and art, maybe like half a pound? Something along those lines.
 
IMO the "value"of a card is what you want it to be say you really like the art on Lysandre trump FA despite being less than most FA's and not legal in play it still has value to you
 
Cards are "worth" the average price people BUY them for. Not the average selling price, not their rarity. What they're BOUGHT for. Which ultimately means that it's generally the people complaining about the cards being expensive (but inevitably getting them anyway) to blame for said prices. Of course rarity and demand play some role, but they're not the major factor. It's most apparent with Trainers, which are pretty easy to come by, and being only Uncommon, in high supply, but can become very expensive.
 
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