Discussion Decks with Potential for After Upcoming Rotation
- Thread starter The Light Music Club
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@crystal_pidgeot I don't think a ban is right, but I believe that your game mechanics internal core strive toward a historic thought process is refreshing, and more like mine.
A game at all times should never levy a stronger position over another opponent without giving an opponent a path to counter through the mechanics. In other words, all games, from Sorry to chess are built with a ying/yang balance that allows every game mechanism to be fair. It's up to the player to choose the game mechanism knowing that at all times there is a deep rooted counter for the mechanism.
In game design, this type of high level process thinking is lost on a lot of upcoming designers that strive to put humorous flaws into games as praises to their cleverness.
Pokemon, though beloved by many, including myself, love this type of praise and cleverness. If they didn't, they wouldn't do it. There is just a deeper philosophy and ego that goes into game design that is hard to understand from a players side of things.
But, ya, I can't agree with the ban, but it's refreshing to hear that the belief is still there.
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I would want a ban on something that is unhealthy for the game but TPC likes printing cards you cant counter effectively. I've always believed that locks that are easy to get should be easy to break and those that are hard to get should be hard to break. As of now, we will have at least 3 months of no counter to Garbodor which will influence the results of tournaments, which in terms influence how future cards are design, which is flawed because the players aren't using the other interesting mechanic so if they do make abilities, they will end up being completely busted. Look at the Ancient Traits they made. These were made for Garbodor the first time around and these are completely busted on most Pokemon.
They can fix this by making Tool Scrapper or Megaphone a promo card through league or something but something needs to be done.
Yes. I agree. I think hard counters should be presented when a gap is left hanging in the wind. I also agree with creating a promo card like Tool Scrapper and Megaphone. I'll just be surprised if they do anything about it. I think it is just one of those things where ego and philosophy meet and a designer is cracking up cause it was his intention. Game designers do it all the time. They create flaws in a game, knowing that it will need to patch later, but it is their clever sense humor that keeps them in control of the game.
A designer knew this would happen probably 18 months ago, and just smirked in a meeting.
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Nobody really even knows what it will look like, it would be a little soon to call things so drastic. The format will likely change in ways that haven't been anticipated.
On a side note you can always lysandre-up that pokemon and take a shot at it. They've hinted that attacks that get rid of tools should be more meaningful, but as with stadiums, the effect is most important during your turn. The attack ends your turn so the opponent can just play another tool card (I'm guessing that garb decks will have plenty of tools). I know not all abilities are important just during your turn (such as safeguard type abilities), but most of the more powerful abilities are activated during your turn.
On a side note you can always lysandre-up that pokemon and take a shot at it. They've hinted that attacks that get rid of tools should be more meaningful, but as with stadiums, the effect is most important during your turn. The attack ends your turn so the opponent can just play another tool card (I'm guessing that garb decks will have plenty of tools). I know not all abilities are important just during your turn (such as safeguard type abilities), but most of the more powerful abilities are activated during your turn.
I don't believe Garbodor needs to be banned: the only two cards recently banned have been Shiftry (NXD), and Lysandre's Trump Card (PHF), both of these cards were busted and broken, with almost no counter.
Since Seedot and Nuzleaf were both grass types, you could just Forest of Giant Plant them to evolution to Shiftry in your first turn, and then spam Giant Fan with Super Scoop Up, Recycle, and Devolution Spray, when combined with Trick Coin, a deck revolving around Shiftry could just get rid of your opponent's Pokémon on the first turn, making the card busted, since the opponent had no control over the outcome.
Lysandre's Trump Card simply allowed you to abuse trainers like Enhanced Hammer, Crushing Hammer, VS Seeker, etc., while shuffling all your cards into your deck preventing decking out, allows you to go through your entire deck and then Trump Card your discard pile back in once you found what you needed with no consequences, and it just made games to slow and lengthy.
Garbodor is not like these, while yes, ability lock is frustrating, not all decks use them. Shiftry and Trump Card affected all decks across the board. There are also ways to counter Garbodor, just Lysandre it out and KO it, use Hex Maniac and use your abilities and then reuse it turn after turn with VS Seeker. You couldn't counter the other two. Shiftry could win on the first turn, not even giving the opponent a chance to try most of the time, before they were left with no Pokémon, and Trump Card was a trainer, so you had no control over it. While many, (myself included) may not like Garbodor, a ban is not needed nor should it happen. It may be unhealthy for the format, but it's not broken or just horribly designed. And if Garbodor could be an issue just throw in an extra copy of Lysande or Hex Maniac.
Garbodor wont have any counter so based on what you said, should be banned. Also, you seem to have little understanding of how cards work. How does one use Hex Maniac and then use abilities? Really, I would like to know!
Unhealthy cards need to be removed from the format. This can't be argued.
this will not work, since hex turns off your ability too.
but i agree with you, garbodor should not be banned, and i have a feeling that megaphone, xerosic or tool scapper may get reprint
First of all, yes I realized Hex Maniac didn't work in that scenario, after I typed it, but honestly I didn't care to go back and fix it, and yes, I do know how "basic cards work." The simple fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes, I severely doubt you've never made a mistake in how a card reads.
Alas, there are cards that can't be countered. You can't counter someone who Lysandre's out Shaymin and then OHKO's it. You don't see anyone rushing to how Lysandre should be banned. It's frustrating yes, but there's sometimes nothing you can do about it. I know I won't be making many friends with this statement, whatever. I will say it again, if you want to counter Garbodor, run a deck that isn't so reliant on abilities, like Serperior or Jolteon/Glaceon, or pack in an extra Lysandre.
It's way to early with a new rotation coming to say a card needs to be banned.
Garbodor isn't unhealthy, just horribly timed, I'm not denying that. What I am denying is the claim that it had to be banned: We survived with Garbotoxin once, we sure as hell can do it again. Pokémon should only ban cards that limit one of the opponents ways of winning or can win against all deck in single turn, not giving opponents a chance. Ability lock affects most decks, but not all. The card is unhealthy but it isn't broken.
Hey guys, just remember that this thread is for the discussion of decks with potential for the 2017 rotation. As such, this thread is not the place to be discussing whether or not Garbodor should be banned. If you would like to discuss Garbodor further, I have made a new thread here [link] that you should use, instead of derailing this thread.
~bbninjas
~bbninjas
I think Raichu and Medicham actually have a chance as a T3 or T4 deck. With Raichu (AKA poor man's Mega Rayquaza,) it gets Zebstrika (which I luv dat card,) to have a funny potential rouge deck. Medicham keeps Strong Energy and gains Regirock and Carbink, but alas it is also a poor man's Zygarde deck.
Raichu lose Crobat, which is its best partner imo, otherwise it still be good after rotation.
Meidcharm lose Korrina and fighting stadium, even with strong energy and regirock ex it hit 30+20+10 = 60x2 = 120, which is not that big, remember muscle band and focus sash are rotating out too, leaving no useful tools for medicharm. i am not optimistic towards medicharm, as well as other fighting decks. Zygarde/vileplume may be good though
I can see M Mewtwo-EX (Y) being very strong in this format.
It was only really being held back by Night March (as Pumpkaboo hit for weakness and won the prize trade) but now that's gone it will be interesting to see how it does. I don't think it really loses anything major from the rotation and it doesn't have an absolute reliance on Abilities, so Garbodor shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I wouldn't be surprised if the format starts shifting back towards Mega Pokemon but, on the other hand, now that the main Item lock decks have either been rotated (Trevenant XY, Seismitoad-EX) or taken a big hit (Vespiquen/Vileplume) Stage 2 Pokemon become a bit more viable as you can slap down those Rare Candies a bit more.
It was only really being held back by Night March (as Pumpkaboo hit for weakness and won the prize trade) but now that's gone it will be interesting to see how it does. I don't think it really loses anything major from the rotation and it doesn't have an absolute reliance on Abilities, so Garbodor shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I wouldn't be surprised if the format starts shifting back towards Mega Pokemon but, on the other hand, now that the main Item lock decks have either been rotated (Trevenant XY, Seismitoad-EX) or taken a big hit (Vespiquen/Vileplume) Stage 2 Pokemon become a bit more viable as you can slap down those Rare Candies a bit more.
I mean, i'm reading some steam siege cards and they seem to be leaning towards mega pokemon. who knows.
Yup - Clawitzer is a good example.
With Night March and Vespiquen/Vileplume going (the latter thanks to the rotation of Battle Compressor), Standard will be losing the two, quick, big-hitting non-EX decks that made the prize trade so unfavourable for Mega Pokemon. Outside of weakness, I think it will be hard for non-EX Pokemon to OHKO Megas in the new format and that gives them an advantage that had previously been lost.
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I notice Bulbapedia's translations says Clawitzer can accelerate any Energy. If that's really the case, he just got a whole lot better. Mega Steelix might actually be something resembling viable. Mega Tyranitar could actually see play outside the binder. Two Retreat Cost is kinda eh, but at least once you get the Float Stone on, it's not coming off.