Define: Power Creep

[bbninjas]

Power creep is something that has prominently effected the Pokemon TCG. Look at the Hitmonchan from Base Set (regarded one of the strongest cards of the era). 20 for 1 and 40 for 2 on a Basic 70 HP Pokemon was quite outstanding, decimating numerous decks before they really could set up. Years later, we get new mechanics, ranging from exs, Lv.Xs, SP, Prime and Legends, which have all been primary factors that boosted the TCG power.


Fast forward to today. Black and White introduced the 170 HP basic EX monster of Mewtwo-EX, which arguably led the power creep storm. XY sees ridiculously tanky Mega Evolutions that strive to 1-hit KO virtually everything in format. Look at Primal Groudon-EX and look at that Base Set Hitmonchan. That 20 for 1 and 40 for 3 that was outstanding some 15 years ago is virtually worthless against a 240 HP giant that can do 200 damage just with a stadium play.

That's a short taste of the power creep throughout the years. But there's that term. 'Power Creep'. What does it mean to you? What defines a 'power creep'? Must a power creep be something large and significant (like Mewtwo-EX)?

 

[TheStrictNein]

The reason for power creep is simple. Sell more cards.

You cannot release a new set with cards weaker than the old set, otherwise you'll get a lot of people not buying the set, or only buying singles of the Trainers, etc. The only way you can combat it is either by releasing 5 sets at once and doing an impromptu rotation into those 5 sets, or creating a ban list, like Yu-Gi-Oh.

Otherwise, the power only ever goes up. If the next game's TCG block goes back to EXs or Primes or whatever, then people will not use those cards until they are forced to by a rotation because EXs and M EXs are just so powerful.

 

[crann777]

I mean, Wikipedia has a pretty good definition of power creep, so there really isn't much to debate.

Unfortunately, as StrictNein said, at the end of the day it's all about selling merchandise, and the best way of doing that is to make it appealing. If you release an underwhelming set, then people won't buy into it until forced.

We can also get into a discussion about design space and how games go stagnant if new mechanics aren't introduced, but new mechanics can't be "too good" or else it upsets the balance of the game. Just look at Mega Evolutions. It was a new concept that didn't take right away, but was later refined through the introduction of Spirit Links. It could have easily gone the other way and the game could have become a rush to see who could get their Mega out first.

I think the creep in Pokemon is fine. Sometimes things slip through the cracks (and personally I'm starting to grow tired of TBDIF releasing as a whole in the latest expansion), but compared to other games on the market (Yugioh, L5R, arguably M:tG) it's not bad.

 

[Otaku]

Power creep is something that has prominently effected the Pokemon TCG. Look at the Hitmonchan from Base Set (regarded one of the strongest cards of the era). 20 for 1 and 40 for 2 on a Basic 70 HP Pokemon was quite outstanding, decimating numerous decks before they really could set up.

Short on time so two quick notes:

1. Special Punch requires [FFC], so it is a three for 40 attack, not a two for 40.
2. Though Hitmonchan itself was a factor, the rest of the card pool was also quite relevant. Hitmonchan actually received a reprint shortly before WotC lost the license; though the reprinted version mistakenly had only 60 HP (and WotC insisted on "play-as-is") those with older copies still enjoyed Hitmonchan proper. It wasn't considered that strong a card when it was reprinted... but it was stronger than other contemporary Hitmonchan.

 

[Zygarde]

I think a nice way to diminish power creep is making something along the lines of Delta Species or Pokémon SP: cards that aren't OP on their on, but can face EXs due to having access to a powerful engine. That way, whenever EXs are phazed out, the overall amount of HP and damage output shouldn't increase too much.

 

[TheStrictNein]

I think a nice way to diminish power creep is making something along the lines of Delta Species or Pokémon SP: cards that aren't OP on their on, but can face EXs due to having access to a powerful engine. That way, whenever EXs are phazed out, the overall amount of HP and damage output shouldn't increase too much.

The problem is then TPCi are essentially saying "fudge those cards" to an arbitrary list of cards.

Which is nice for you (not you you, but the person reading this comment) if you hate "insert list of cards here" but is not good for person who likes "insert list of cards here". And who's to say your allowed to have more fun with this game than someone else?

 

[Zygarde]

That's the same logic that exists today. Go EX or go home. Although there's Flareon and Night March breaking that. I understand what you're saying, but that always happens. I really wanted Pokémon like Cloyster and Dewgong to be playable, but they're not :<

 

[asdjklghty]

That's the same logic that exists today. Go EX or go home. Although there's Flareon and Night March breaking that. I understand what you're saying, but that always happens. I really wanted Pokémon like Cloyster and Dewgong to be playable, but they're not :<

What about the expected rise in Grass types after the release of Bandit Ring (Ancient Origins)? Yes M Sceptile is an EX but most people seem to be more excited for turn 1 Stage 2s, which aren't EXs. I think they can definitely keep up with EXs and will do well in competitive play whether it's Tier 1 or even Tier 2.

And to respond to the core of what you're saying, well every TCG has a kind of card that they went people to use as their main attacker (role whatever). Otherwise, how will they make money and have a whole club of "good cards"?

 

[bbninjas]

That's the same logic that exists today. Go EX or go home. Although there's Flareon and Night March breaking that. I understand what you're saying, but that always happens. I really wanted Pokémon like Cloyster and Dewgong to be playable, but they're not :<

On the positive side, EX power creep does get people like myself to be a bit more creative in making non-EX decks that can beat the EXs their selves.

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

Funny how another power creep discussion wound up in a Yu-Gi-Oh forum just recently

Anyway, I'd argue that power creep is inevitable, mostly for the merchandising reasons above, but the fact that not all the packs from the previous blocks are rotated out is also a factor. (Note, Mewtwo EX, released in a BW pack), the result is that recent sets are forced to build on older sets, and thus power creep is that much more likely.

 

[Frost]

I really wanted Pokémon like Cloyster and Dewgong to be playable, but they're not :<

If they ever actually remember Dewgong exists again, they better give it Safeguard as its Ability like they did back in EX FRLG.

 

[Rakkis157]

You know, before we actually go about with defining or reducing Power Creep, you have to first define Power.

It is very, very easy to just point at HP and damage and say, "The power levels have increased!" but in reality Pokemon rotates their sets, so even if the difference between say Rayquaza-ex and Rayquaza EX is huge, it does not matter because they weren't meant to be facing each other. Besides HP and Damage, the things that can define Power are Utility, which includes things such as Gust of Wind effects, energy conservation, energy denial, milling, etc. and Speed, which includes draw power, energy acceleration, searching, etc.

Power is also not something you should restrict to including only Pokemon, because other cards like Special Energy and Trainers, especially the latter, play a really huge role in the game. In this department, the power has actually decreased drastically from Gen 1 to Gen 6. Compare Professor Oak to Professor Juniper, or Cheren with Bill. The difference here is just huge. Lysandre is far weaker than Gust of Wind. Rare Candy was errata'd to become only a shadow of its former self. Item Finder and Computer Search became ACE Specs.

And with this:

I think a nice way to diminish power creep is making something along the lines of Delta Species or Pokémon SP: cards that aren't OP on their on, but can face EXs due to having access to a powerful engine. That way, whenever EXs are phazed out, the overall amount of HP and damage output shouldn't increase too much.

Here, you are in no way diminishing power creep, just shifting all the power around to other cards. In future sets, wouldn't this mean that you need super strong engines for any deck to be viable, which leads us back to the same situation?

 

[asdjklghty]

Power creep might have been a marketing ploy. When cards are good (or sometimes they only look good, let's face it, most kids don't really care about play-ability) people buy them. On the back of the Pokemon packs, and on some of those TCG TV commercials (not sure if they still do those for newer sets in the west) it always say how powerful and game changing the new cards are. (sometimes true, other times a little bit over the top) this promotes the game, making people want to buy cards. In order to keep up with these statements, pokemon

Personally, I dislike overpowered cards coming out in one set. When a card takes over the meta, it makes playing in events such as league or Tournaments boring, as you sit facing the same deck over, and over, and over. What Pokemon really must do is release cards of equal power throughout one generation, and then rotate that generation out once a new one has started and has a substantial amount of sets that players can build decks out of, and then slowly power creep in between generations. This way every deck released in a generations can get a fighting chance throughout it's rotation lifetime, and we don't have overpowered cards being released in the middle of a generation that blows everything out of the water that came before them.

I know this is never going to happen, but it's a nice thought. Hope you liked my ideas!

-Emskas

I don't think that'll help. The problem isn't "power creep" but how luck-based the game has become. It's becoming like the VG: a game of turtle. Who sets up and draws better wins. If every deck was like GroBuffet, it'll be a tactical game since you probably aren't going to attack from your first turn. In fact, there was time where you would be fine with not attacking since you had time to set up and breath.

And also, Donphan is old yet it peaked later in its age: way after it first got released in Plasma Storm. The format right now is so diverse with older cards that never had a chance to shine now are able to. Saying people play the game decks is narrow minded and fixated on the wrong things maybe cause you're angry at something. Can't afford 4 Shaymin EX (RSK)?

 

[asdjklghty]

I'm not sure if your last sentence was aimed towards me, but if it was, i'd just like to say that I'm not angry, i'm just tired of the same pattern every generation. Pokemon releases good cards, it takes over the meta, and then other (older) decks have 2 choices, cope, or die off. It wastes all the play testing and hard work one puts in to learn a deck if that deck cannot survive because of the new meta dominating deck. It has nothing to do with the cost of cards. I have more than 4 Shaymin thank you.

-Emskas

Well this always been the way TCGs work. The "better" cards are obviously a way for the company to make money on so that's why the spotlight goes to them.

 

[Rakkis157]

I'm not sure if your last sentence was aimed towards me, but if it was, i'd just like to say that I'm not angry, i'm just tired of the same pattern every generation. Pokemon releases good cards, it takes over the meta, and then other (older) decks have 2 choices, cope, or die off. It wastes all the play testing and hard work one puts in to learn a deck if that deck cannot survive because of the new meta dominating deck. It has nothing to do with the cost of cards. I have more than 4 Shaymin thank you.

-Emskas

To be honest, any set that does not shake up the meta, I consider a failure, because that is what sets are for; changing the landscape of the game. Every set has something that can either break or make a deck, the easiest example being Tool Drop dying to Startling Megaphone and reviving thanks to LTC and Dimension Valley. That's how it has beem for ages.

 

[bbninjas]

To be honest, any set that does not shake up the meta, I consider a failure, because that is what sets are for; changing the landscape of the game. Every set has something that can either break or make a deck, the easiest example being Tool Drop dying to Startling Megaphone and reviving thanks to LTC and Dimension Valley. That's how it has beem for ages.

I think there is a fine line when this is good, and a fine line when this is bad. Things like Mewtwo certainly shook up the meta... but was that good, or bad? It completely changed the way decks were made (in my opinion). Good right? But what about that huge unnecessary power creep through the introduction of a single card? Was that bad?

 

[Rakkis157]

I think there is a fine line when this is good, and a fine line when this is bad. Things like Mewtwo certainly shook up the meta... but was that good, or bad? It completely changed the way decks were made (in my opinion). Good right? But what about that huge unnecessary power creep through the introduction of a single card? Was that bad?

Execution is important as well.

When it comes to powerful combinations, Pokemon are often the most visible, which often lead to them being cited as the source of the problem. However, these problematic cards, unless made blatantly overpowered (and I can't think of any since HGSS) are only as strong as the cards that made it tick. What made Mewtwo EX so powerful when it first came out wasn't the card itself, but the foundation that was already in place to support it. Back then, we had first turn attacks that allowed you to make donks, and also a means to power up Mewtwo in one turn via DCE, leading to a whole lot of donks. Add that to the fact that the most viable Pokemon to handle a Mewtwo EX was another Mewtwo EX, and that none of the other EXs were especially good, made Mewtwo as dominant as it was. Had any of these things been different, like Mewtwo having a Darkness Weakness (which would lead to cards like Zoroark being the go to counter for it), first turn attacks not being allowed, other good EX Pokemon existing back then, or DCE (which should imo never have been reprinted) not existing in the format, then things would have been a whole lot different. Luckily, the powers that be responded by releasing cards in future sets almost specifically counter Mewtwo EX to keep it in check.

The same case happened with Lysandre's Trump Card, though this case was much more severe and led to the card being banned outright. (And here, too, the Pokemon themselves weren't the source of the problem but rather the cards supporting them)

Neither of these problems came about due to power creep alone, but in the case of Mewtwo was often attributed to power creep thanks to Mewtwo being one of the first generation of EXs so we had nothing to compare it to. Had things been different, then the meta wouldn't have centralized at all, just shakened up.

 

[DarkMatterGaming]

When I think of Power Creep, one particular card pops into my head: Seismtoad EX.

Now while he's still strong and is viable, when he was first introduced, the format was practically Go Toad or Go Home. The ability to shut down Items, shut off Abilities via a Benched Pokemon and slowly chip away at your HP, 50 - 80 per turn? That was a ridiculous spike in Power that made some decks nearly impossible to compete with. This, on top of the Cancer Engine that was introduced via Trump Card, made the creep more like a Power Rollercoaster.

 

[Otaku]

Well this always been the way TCGs work. The "better" cards are obviously a way for the company to make money on so that's why the spotlight goes to them.

Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean that way is the best, and in the case of the Pokémon TCG especially, creating overpowered cards likely doesn't significantly boost sales. The Pokémon TCG may have a large, dedicated competitive player base but it still dominates TCG sales at major retailers and... how many "serious" players do you know buying the bulk of the cards from Wal-Mart? Nothing wrong with buy boosters in store: just be wary of scalers trying to filter out all boosters with more foil and thus heavier cards, staff that isn't so good at safely handling product (oh the horror stories), etc. (and these aren't unique to major retailers, just in my limited experience more common there than in a hobby shop). Most serious players I know however buy booster boxes and/or singles.

So... do the boosters bought with "more powerful cards" as the deciding factor (not the ones that would have been purchased regardless) add up to that much? The-powers-that-be don't profit directly; they sell to distributors that then sell to the people we buy the cards from, so it is usually at least two levels of separation. Throw in people like me hesitant to buy the actual cards anymore (or at least invest heavily) because we find this "moah powah!" gimmick promotes a gaming environment we don't enjoy and I have to wonder if it wouldn't just be easier and more effective to make a good, balanced game. That is actually a good selling point as well, especially if you're not one of the top players (providing a decent return on investment) or big on treating booster pulls like the lottery . To be clear I am talking about where you either win or lose and more often lose, instead of "Nice! I not only got cards appropriate for my purchase but this rare card is worth multiple booster packs on its own!"; the latter is one of the selling points of a TCG.

 

[asdjklghty]

Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean that way is the best, and in the case of the Pokémon TCG especially, creating overpowered cards likely doesn't significantly boost sales. The Pokémon TCG may have a large, dedicated competitive player base but it still dominates TCG sales at major retailers and... how many "serious" players do you know buying the bulk of the cards from Wal-Mart? Nothing wrong with buy boosters in store: just be wary of scalers trying to filter out all boosters with more foil and thus heavier cards, staff that isn't so good at safely handling product (oh the horror stories), etc. (and these aren't unique to major retailers, just in my limited experience more common there than in a hobby shop). Most serious players I know however buy booster boxes and/or singles.

So... do the boosters bought with "more powerful cards" as the deciding factor (not the ones that would have been purchased regardless) add up to that much? The-powers-that-be don't profit directly; they sell to distributors that then sell to the people we buy the cards from, so it is usually at least two levels of separation. Throw in people like me hesitant to buy the actual cards anymore (or at least invest heavily) because we find this "moah powah!" gimmick promotes a gaming environment we don't enjoy and I have to wonder if it wouldn't just be easier and more effective to make a good, balanced game. That is actually a good selling point as well, especially if you're not one of the top players (providing a decent return on investment) or big on treating booster pulls like the lottery . To be clear I am talking about where you either win or lose and more often lose, instead of "Nice! I not only got cards appropriate for my purchase but this rare card is worth multiple booster packs on its own!"; the latter is one of the selling points of a TCG.

I remember non-EX cards got pretty pricey, even more than many EXs. Like Luxray G Lv. X was $80 at its peak. That's a lot of money for 1 copy. And that's for a single.