Discussion Ditto Prism Star into "The Box"

[Laurier_Ex]

So by now i am guessing everyone is getting very familiar with Ninja Box by now and everyone plays it a lot because it is just a awesome deck for the expanded format. I believe it is actually a tier 2 deck only being outclassed by a very few decks. With this being said i wanted to discuss the benefits of using Ditto in a Ninja Box.

Ditto Prism Star – Colorless – HP40
Basic Pokemon

You can’t have more than 1 Prism Star card with the same name in your deck. If a Prism Star card would go to the discard pile, put it in the Lost Zone instead.

Ability: Evolve Into Anything
Once during your turn, you may play a Stage 1 Evolution card from your hand onto this Pokemon to evolve it (excluding your first turn and the turn this Pokemon comes into play).

Weakness: Fighting (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1

While you can only include a single copy of Ditto in your deck, it is worth nothing that this card could accomplish much in a Ninja Box. First of all, its very low 40hp is not a problem in the deck because you can use Ninja Boy to bypass this. Simply bench any Pokemon and then whenever you want you can Ninja Boy into Ditto and evolve right away. Secondly, Ditto can act as a vessel so you can include powerful stage 1 Pokemon in the deck. Here are a few:

Lycanroc-Gx (Bloodthristy eyes): Not only does this pokemon allows for OHKO on Zoroark-Gx for a single Prism or Rainbow and a DCE (something more affordable than any fighting basics) but it can also be very useful through its ability.

Baby Gollisopod: A very beefy 1 prize attacker Pokemon that has the ability to OHKO weak to grass Pokemon (something more affordable than Leafeon-Ex for exemple). It could be a good addition to the deck in order to deal with decks like Wailord-Ex.

Salazzle-Gx: A very cost effective Pokemon in order to deal with metal decks (something the deck could not cheaply afford before with things like Volcanion-Ex or Entei-Gx) and also has a very good late game attack.

These are notorious inclusions imo with Ditto since they can take care of Fighting, Grass or Fire weak decks but i should also mention Zoroark which is obvious and to a lesser extend Gx eeveelutions since they can hit the numbers and most of them have decent abilities\attacks.

With this being said, i am guessing that including a single copy of Acerola into the deck would probably be worth it since it would help recycle Ditto for more than a single use. I am thinking that including 3 Stage 1 pokemon with Ditto would be the right amount. Lycanroc-Gx seems like he is staple and then the 2 others could be decided depending on the meta.

Let me think what you guys think about it.

 

[Tapu Lele]

Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but I haven't seen or heard of many expanded ninja-box decks lately. Last I heard, Zoroark and Trevenant were the dominant forces.

Would you be able to post a skeleton list of the archetype for context?

 

[GamePhoenix]

Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but I haven't seen or heard of many expanded ninja-box decks lately. Last I heard, Zoroark and Trevenant were the dominant forces.

Would you be able to post a skeleton list of the archetype for context?

The whole idea of the deck (as I understand it,) is to play every tech imaginable and use ninja boy to cycle between them depending on the opponent. And since Trev was severely nerfed by losing Wally, and Zoroark can be teched against with cards like Baby Buzz among others, it is in a pretty good place!

 

[AuraJackle]

Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but I haven't seen or heard of many expanded ninja-box decks lately. Last I heard, Zoroark and Trevenant were the dominant forces.

Would you be able to post a skeleton list of the archetype for context?

You haven't heard of it cuz it's not a real deck with any viable place in the meta

 

[GamePhoenix]

You haven't heard of it cuz it's not a real deck with any viable place in the meta

*gasps* How dare you!

 

[CrownAxe]

So by now i am guessing everyone is getting very familiar with Ninja Box by now and everyone plays it a lot

That's a strange assumption to make for a deck nobody plays

 

[Laurier_Ex]

That's a strange assumption to make for a deck nobody plays

I was obviously being sarcastic because very few people play this type of deck. I played against someone who had a similar list this week but had Xurkitree and things like Acerola instead and was playing mainly stall. My offer still stands, call me on PTCGO. Gumballz had won the march tournament with his Buzzwole deck. I played 4 games and won 3 out of them and pulled the donk twice out of those 4 games. I am always happy to show people that this deck works. Does not mean it can loose obviously but it has a lot of good match up and consistency is better than it looks.

It is not a new concept and was once used similarly in the Mew Box (you can search on Youtube). The deck had some problems back then (bench control was one of the main issue since Mew requires you to bench in order to copy) that i tried to address by making a totally different draw engine (using Ninja Box with Shaymin-Ex/Unown and Mallow). This was an obvious flaw since playing stall requires you to make sure your opponent cannot play around it by targeting the bench to win.

Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but I haven't seen or heard of many expanded ninja-box decks lately. Last I heard, Zoroark and Trevenant were the dominant forces.

Would you be able to post a skeleton list of the archetype for context?

This is i would say the core of the deck:

Spoiler

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 8

* 2 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
* 1 Jolteon-EX GEN 28
* 2 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
* 2 Unown AOR 30
* 1 Glaceon-EX FCO 20

##Trainer Cards - 21

* 2 Mallow GRI 127
* 1 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 1 Scramble Switch PLS 129
* 3 Ninja Boy STS 103
* 4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
* 4 Ultra Ball FCO 113
* 2 Guzma BUS 115
* 3 VS Seeker ROS 110
* 1 Field Blower GRI 163

##Energy - 8

* 4 Prism Energy NXD 93
* 4 Double Colorless Energy XY 130

Total Cards - 37

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

The first thing you will notice is that i play very few draw supporters. The deck relies on a fast start with Mallow/Shaymin to look for the important pieces (usually Ninja Boy with both Prism and DCE energy) so it can quickly stall and establish control. You can then recycle Shaymin into your deck by using Ninja Boy on them and turn them into Unown (or things like Regirock XY promo or Oranguru) to remove the easy bench prizes. I suggest running between 16-18 pokemon in this deck. You can then improve consistency with Pokemon Communication to make sure you get Shaymin and Lele going early and don't brick on the 1st turn. Here are cards i recommend adding depending what you are facing:

- Against Zoroark-Gx: Baby Buzzwole, Hoopa SL and Sudowoodo are helpful. I also use a thin Gallade line 1-0-1 with a single Candy and Korrina copy. This gives another way to OHKO Zoroark-Gx and improves the deck flow if you can set it up.

- Against Buzzwole: If you get Jolteon-Ex going, you just need to make sure you Guzma the Rockruff and don't let them setup Lycanroc-Gx. I suggest adding Pheromosa on the other hand because you can often donk if they start with Remoraid, Rockruff or Diancie Prism in the active. The deck can easily pull out 1st turn donk using Shaymin/Mallow (to search for Float Stone/Scramble Switch and Beast Energy for a benched Pheromosa) or using Ninja Boy on the active and attaching if you got Prism Energy or Beast Energy in hand. Hoopa SL can also be useful sometimes if you target the Baby Buzzwole and get rid of that.

- Against Greninja: Pheromosa-Gx is often enough and will half of the time pull the donk against it since they play few basic pokemon and all of them are weak to grass (except Lele). Adding Giratina gives you almost auto win.

- Against Nightmarch: Jolteon-Ex is usually an auto win unless they play Pokemon Ranger or Zoroark-Gx. Adding Karen makes it easier and is an option.

- Against Trevenant: Latias-Ex is usually an auto win unless they play Silent Lab, Espeon-Ex or a copy of Trevenant GR. Hoopa SL can help against the deck since he can OHKO Trevenant Break.

- Against Darkrai: Jolteon-Ex is the way to go but you need to be careful about Darkrai-Gx Gx attack and Hypnolaser. Adding Comfey makes it almost an auto win.

- Against Quad Sylveon: To beat this deck you need Regirock XY promo (or Electrike that also has Omega trait) and Magearna. Ideally make sure you attach energy on Regirock XY and when you are ready you use Ninja Boy into Magearna to pull the OHKO. Ideally you need to end the game by turn 2-3 before it gets going.

- Against Wailord-Ex: You need Regirock XY promo (or Electrike that also has Omega trait). You can beat it just by attaching to Regirock and use it as the attacker but don't waste ressources needlessly because it is usually a close shot. Adding something like Leafeon-Ex a copy of N and Fightning Fury Belt helps. You just attach everything on Regirock and play passive until you can make the move with Ninja Boy into Leafeon-Ex for the OHKO. Xurkitree and Hoopa can be pain and if they do, ideally you need Latias-Ex or Dialga-Gx to bypass their protection.

- Sableye/Garb: Add Seismitoad and it is an auto win.

So you have some of the most frequent matchup here. Playing against Garbodor can be a pain and teching against it is doable but i would not recommend it since it hurts other matchup a lot and it is still not nearly a win. Hoopa SL with Oranguru (ressource management) could help. Also, Magearna-Ex would be needed against Drampa-Gx to avoid the effect of Righteous edge.

The most important aspect of the deck is to control your bench. You ideally want to make sure your opponent cannot win by using Guzma or Lysandre so you need to only bench what is necessary and remove the liabilities on your bench with Ninja Boy.

After rotation the deck looses POT and i still have to see how this will play out.

 

[CrownAxe]

I was obviously being sarcastic because very few people play this type of deck.

Didn't seem like seeing as you proceeded to not explain what the deck is yet continued talking about tech choices for said deck anyway

 

[Laurier_Ex]

Didn't seem like seeing as you proceeded to not explain what the deck is yet continued talking about tech choices for said deck anyway

Not every one is familiar with searching whit Google. I doubt it is your case so what is the reason, you want to troll? We already spoke about the deck together so move on if you got nothing new.

 

[Tapu Lele]

Not every one is familiar with searching with Google. I doubt it is your case so what is the reason, you want to troll? We already spoke about the deck together so move on if you got nothing new.

Hey, typically if you are posting about an unfamiliar or rare archetype of a deck, it's difficult to Google up info. Besides, if you are the one discussing the deck in the first place, the burden of information should be on your shoulders; i.e. You need to be the one explaning how the deck works.

Just keep this in mind for future reference ♪

No need to fight over it or anything like that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Laurier_Ex]

Hey, typically if you are posting about an unfamiliar or rare archetype of a deck, it's difficult to Google up info. Besides, if you are the one discussing the deck in the first place, the burden of information should be on your shoulders; i.e. You need to be the one explaning how the deck works.

Just keep this in mind for future reference ♪

No need to fight over it or anything like that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are totally right. This was not aimed at the community i am pleased to take the burden of backing things with info.

I will explain my last post: I had already got into an argument with Crownaxe. To make it short, he is someone who is intelligent but we are not in a similar mindset. I still have to appreciate his constructive comments through his dark approach.

 

[fleshrum]

You haven't heard of it cuz it's not a real deck with any viable place in the meta

pretty much this. I'm eager to see a skeleton list.

EDIT: to be clear I know there is one above. which has one galceon and one jolteon and... a lot of supporters.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

pretty much this. I'm eager to see a skeleton list.

EDIT: to be clear I know there is one above. which has one galceon and one jolteon and... a lot of supporters.

I can see that as most people you cannot see clearly how this deck can work without supporters and overlook the draw engine. If you want to improve the consistency of this deck, adding 1 to 3 draw supporters can be alright (Colress with a Sky Field or N with Oranguru are good options). But, i suggest not adding too much because you do not want to deplete your deck. Ninja Boy is useful when you have Pokémon in your deck, not in your discard pile or in your hand, this is important to understand. Ninja Boy is the most underrated supporter in the game. He is also the most versatile.

- He controls your bench space (with Unown or Wishiwashi (Cowardice)).
- He ensures that you never brick on an active pokemon you do not want in the active making Float Stone not a staple.
- He allows you to attach energy on anything just as if it was your main attacker and makes it unpredictable for your opponent to guess the Pokemon you will use against him.
- He can allow you to retreat the active (with a 0 retreat pokemon like Jolteon-Ex)
- He can allow you to pick up a damaged pokemon like Acerola (with Kartana-Gx)
- And the most important part, he acts has a draw supporter by recycling Shaymin-Ex from the bench into your deck. Turns it into Unown or Ralts/Zorua/Oranguru for later added draw effect.

This deck has 2 Shaymin-Ex but you can use Shaymin-Ex much more often using the Ninja Boy trick and this is where the draw comes mostly from. While an ordinary deck will take all it's bench space quickly, this deck allows you to always free bench space. Having more free bench space and recycling Shaymin-Ex means you have a very strong draw engine using Ninja Boy. If you make the maths, using 2 Ninja Boy will allow you to play 4 times Shaymin-Ex and gain 2 more card draw using Unown. Then you might say that this deck still does not draw as much as a regular deck and you would be right (but as mentioned earlier this is something you still want given the nature of Ninja Boy). This deck focuses on quality drawing instead of quantity. Mallow with Shaymin-Ex or Unown draws exactly into what you need. Gallade BKT with Oranguru is also something i like to add.

The deck as an inherent weakness against Garbodor (Garbotoxin) and Alolan Muk (Power of Alchemy) because most of it's draw power resides in Pokemon abilities. Once the abilities are shut down, drawing becomes a problem. But otherwise, this deck can manage to pull wins against almost anything.

And as i said, people are always welcome adding me on PTCGO so i can show how it's done and how consistent it is. I have posted a basic skeleton of the deck that shows the staple cards. You can add whatever you want from there just use your imagination. You can make it very strong against an archetype but with a narrower range of easy match up. You can make it more consistent by adding cards like Trainers Mail or Pokemon Communication. This deck is easily the most flexible deck out there so you have options.

 

[fleshrum]

I'm mostly incredulous since the enormous list of techs you suggested are all completely disparate strategies; your version (which is, let's be honest, the only version) must be quite the pile. Seismitoad is not an auto win against sableye/garb, so idk how a single copy here will save you? A 101 line of gallade where you must ninja boy into ralts and then draw into rare candy and gallade, presumably by benching shaymin (itself an easy as pie guzma target) is your primary anti-zoroark strategy? I'm sure you're seeing success online and that's great for you. I've picked up many surprise victories with a vivillon deck that runs every type of energy. That doesn't make it the next meta-defining expanded deck.

Anyway, I'm not going to 'fight you irl' on this, as enjoyable as it is losing to a skilled player and/or a unique deck type. The point is that you talk about this deck like it's some sort of expanded defining thing and I sincerely doubt that. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I look forward to being proven wrong.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

I'm mostly incredulous since the enormous list of techs you suggested are all completely disparate strategies; your version (which is, let's be honest, the only version) must be quite the pile.

Similar to how Marshadow Box will load a pile of Pokemon. You tech the proper Pokemon counters you need in the deck. Sometimes it takes more or less tech but you almost always find a way to counter the decks you want to counter.

Seismitoad is not an auto win against sableye/garb, so idk how a single copy here will save you?

Good luck drawing into puzzles with Item lock active. If you don't call it auto loss it's pretty near to it. Start off with energy attachment to Regirock XY promo and Ninja into Seismitoad-Ex when ready. What is your plan against it? And while it appears like it's a single copy i can whenever i want save that said copy using Ninja Boy. And then there is Rescue Stretcher and POT.

A 101 line of gallade where you must ninja boy into ralts and then draw into rare candy and gallade, presumably by benching shaymin (itself an easy as pie guzma target) is your primary anti-zoroark strategy?

That is not what i said. I guess you did not read anything i wrote and you are just trolling. Check previous posts, it answers all your questions.

Anyway, I'm not going to 'fight you irl' on this, as enjoyable as it is losing to a skilled player and/or a unique deck type. The point is that you talk about this deck like it's some sort of expanded defining thing and I sincerely doubt that. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I look forward to being proven wrong.

In other words you are dodging my offer to prove you wrong. This deck can definitely hold it's ground as a Tier 2 material. You are welcome online so i can prove you wrong as i did numerous times against other people. IT was defining when Steam Engine got released. It still works well as actually every time i am tired of loosing on PTCGO i use this deck.[/QUOTE]

 

[fleshrum]

I really hate being misrepresented. From your decklist post:

Baby Buzzwole, Hoopa SL and Sudowoodo are helpful. I also use a thin Gallade line 1-0-1 with a single Candy and Korrina copy. This gives another way to OHKO Zoroark-Gx and improves the deck flow if you can set it up.

Yeah, if you tech all of those cards, your Zoroark matchup is probably fine. I'm asking specifically how Gallade

improves the deck flow

and how you would set it up,

if you can set it up

in a non-solitaire situation.

So when you say:

I guess you did not read anything i wrote and you are just trolling. Check previous posts, it answers all your questions.

it's a gross misrepresentation, and pretty salty to boot. So are comments like this:

Good luck drawing into puzzles with Item lock active. If you don't call it auto loss it's pretty near to it.

Isn't the opposite also true? Good luck to you drawing into puzzles with ability lock active? [Or at least, good luck drawing into puzzles AND playing Ninja Boy into Ralts after a Korrina + un-hammered DCE previous turn to KO something weak to fighting that KO's back? I'm just spitballing here...]

You're assumption is that you can tech an answer to anything, but even if that is true, you have yet to demonstrate how you can tech an answer to everything. I'm just pointing out that those two things are not the same thing.

And, word of advice, stop flexing. I have no doubt you would beat me online. I play a Vivillon deck. Beating me online would prove that you're deck ... runs... and proves nothing else. Because mine usually doesn't. And I'm OK with that. I'm questioning your opinion about your pet project; I'm not questioning you as a person, so please, take it easy on the measuring.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

I really hate being misrepresented. From your decklist post:

Yeah, if you tech all of those cards, your Zoroark matchup is probably fine. I'm asking specifically how Gallade and how you would set it up, in a non-solitaire situation.

With Korrina it is not hard to setup Gallade. Benching Ralts is not very hard either since you have Pokemon Communication, Ultra Ball, Ninja Boy. You just bench the Ralts and Korrina into Gallade the turn after if thats what you need.

Isn't the opposite also true? Good luck to you drawing into puzzles with ability lock active? [Or at least, good luck drawing into puzzles AND playing Ninja Boy into Ralts after a Korrina + un-hammered DCE previous turn to KO something weak to fighting that KO's back? I'm just spitballing here...]

Setting up a Garbodor is not done within a single turn while putting Regirock XY promoon the bench on the first turn can be easily achieved. You do not need to bench anything else apart from the Shaymin-Ex needed to draw first turn (and those will be removed by Ninja Boy). Once Regirock is up, no energy denial is possible.

You're assumption is that you can tech an answer to anything, but even if that is true, you have yet to demonstrate how you can tech an answer to everything. I'm just pointing out that those two things are not the same thing.

I never said i could tech an answer to everything all at once. You have to consider the meta and what you want to beat. There will be some decks where you will need to rely on trying to stall and hope for the best.

When you play expanded on PTCGO (not IRL even where meta is more focused) you want an answer to: Nightmarch, Trevenant, Greninja to begin with. Those are annoying and very common. Jolteon-Ex takes care of Nightmarch and gives a 80%+ win rate. Latias-Ex and Hoopa helps a lot against Trevenant and brings the matchup easily in your favor. Greninja can be donk most of the time by using Pheromosa-Gx and this can turn the matchup in your favor (including Giratina would obviously give you very easy matchup against both Trevenant and Greninja). Pheromosa-Gx can also donk a lot of decks using a simple trick with Shaymin-Ex and Mallow to grab Beast Energy (usually with Float Stone) for 60dmg. Nightmarch and Buzzwole decks are subject to donks as well.

From there you usually have to make choices:
- Use Magearna-Ex to counter Gardevoir-Gx, Glaceon-Gx, Sylveon-Gx and Ninetales-Gx decks.
- Use Comfey to counter Lapras-Gx, Darkrai-Gx and Hypnotoxic laser decks.
- Use Machamp-Ex to help counter 2HKO decks.
- Use a combination of Hoopa SL, Gallade BKT, Baby Buzzwole, Sudowoodo to improve Zoroark-Gx matchup.
- Improve consistency.

And, word of advice, stop flexing. I have no doubt you would beat me online. I play a Vivillon deck. Beating me online would prove that you're deck ... runs... and proves nothing else. Because mine usually doesn't. And I'm OK with that. I'm questioning your opinion about your pet project; I'm not questioning you as a person, so please, take it easy on the measuring.

You deliberately make it appear like this deck is pure crap while a lot of decks recognized as rogue decks are way worse than this. The problem i have with people like you is that they dismiss the idea just because it appears bad while it actually is very far from the truth.

 

[fleshrum]

You deliberately make it appear like this deck is pure crap while a lot of decks recognized as rogue decks are way worse than this.

I asked you questions about how the deck runs. I did not call it pure crap.

The problem i have with people like you is that they dismiss the idea just because it appears bad while it actually is very far from the truth.

The problem I have with people like you is... actually, I don't have a problem with people like you. Being hostile is so normalized that it doesn't phase me. Way to be completely average!

I won't, however, be responding to you again. I suggest that our peers do the same.

Goodbye.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

LOL



I asked you questions about how the deck runs. I did not call it pure crap.



The problem I have with people like you is... actually, I don't have a problem with people like you. Being hostile is so normalized that it doesn't phase me. Way to be completely average!

I won't, however, be responding to you again. I suggest that our peers do the same.

Goodbye.

I get that a deck that can donk Buzzwole, OHKO Gardevoir-Gx and stall Trevenant does not sound appealing to you. Too bad.

 

[CrownAxe]

I get that a deck that can donk Buzzwole, OHKO Gardevoir-Gx and stall Trevenant does not sound appealing to you. Too bad.

It's not about what Ninja Box can do (I could throw all the same techs in a theme deck and make the same claim). It's about how well your deck does it and there isn't a good way to prove how consistent your deck is without going to a tournament (which we all know your excuse already no need to repeat it)