Discussion Do you think Buzzwole is OP in Standard?

Attix

Attix

Electric Delivery Driver from Washington
Member
I'm asking this as a serious question, not because I'm salty about anything.

I was at league today at Mox Boarding House in Bellevue, and at one point played a match against an Expanded player (who had a really annoying Ninjask deck that I nonetheless managed to defeat). After the match, I asked him if he also played Standard (he had a friend who played both) and he said no because he essentially quit Standard since Buzzwole is infesting it, and moved to Expanded where it's not as widely used.

And that got me thinking: is Buzzwole really that powerful that it makes people give up on a whole format? I know it's probably the BDiF, but is it so powerful that you either need to run it or something that can specifically counter it (which can under-perform against other decks)? At Smogon, Pokémon are often banned to Ubers or one of the BL's with over-centralization as the underlying reasoning. And the player wasn't exactly bad or new; his friend is going to Worlds, so he probably isn't too far behind skill-wise.

Now, personally, I don't think Buzzwole is particularly strong on its own merits; it's just that it's the beneficiary of a ton of support right now, such as:
  • Regirock-EX
  • Diancie {*}
  • Strong Energy
  • Beast Energy
  • Choice Band
  • Max Elixir
  • Brooklet Hill
  • Beast Ring
  • Ultra Space
... with the stuff in green being stuff that will rotate after this year's Worlds.

So what do you think? Is Buzzwole so strong as to be over-powered? Do your friends think so? If so, why? If not, why not? If you think so, do you think it will remain that way after rotation or will it become more balanced, and if so, why?
 
It doesn't matter how powerful Buzzwole GX is (even though it is). What's matters is how good the deck surrounding it is because it's cards like Lycanroc GX and Max Elixir that synergize with it so well that makes to deck top tier.

The big thing though is that the cards it's losing after rotation are it's two most powerful cards, Max Elixir and Strong Energy. With out Elixer, Buzzwole has no energy acceleration outside of your opponent being at 3-4 prizes for Beast Ring so will be slow at getting big KOs for several turns of the game untill you opponent takesa KO themselves. And without Strong Energy (and Regirock EX also) Buzzswole's damage has a pretty hard cap of 210 needing Choice Band and Diance. The only way above this is with your one-of Beast Energy, or using your GX attack. The deck will definitely still be solid because of the cards it still keeps but it's losing the sheer speed it had that made it such an oppressive force.
 
Buzzwole gets destroyed by Malamar variants. If you look at recent tournaments you’ll see that while Buzzy is undeniably a good deck, the ability to one-shot it with things like Mew, Ultra Necrozma, Necrozma GX, and Dawn Wings GX makes sure that the deck won’t dominate the format. With the growing popularity of these decks. I wouldn’t be surprised if Buzzwole stopped seeing play.
 
Do I think Buzzwole is OP in Standard? The short answer is "yes", but that is horribly misleading without me getting into the long answer. As I started to type out the long answer, however, I realized I was re-writing an article I've had on the backburner for years, about understanding the Pokémon Trading Card Game.

I suppose if I do not assume I have to explain everything from the ground up, it isn't too bad: most competitive cards/decks are too good with respect to game balance and health. We've had to settle for a "heightened" balance, which is better than no balance at all. The best of each Stage, each Type, and each gimmick are competitive... though not equally competitive with each other. "The rest" of each category is lucky to be functional, let alone competitive, and is quickly forgotten unless a metagame shift elevates them.

I don't expect every card to be useful, but I would hope each card was designed with the idea it could be competitive, preferably with the intent it was meant to be. I will allow for a substantial amount of the card pool to be of dubious quality, but the Pokémon TCG is usually rocking only about 10-30%... whether you're in school or employed, that low a success rate should be a concern. Still, even ignoring that, we need to look at how core game mechanics are affected. The short, sweet example is the first turn rules; it might seem ridiculous, but apparently, the game was meant to lack any special first turn rules save the one about neither player being allowed to Evolve manually that turn. Which means the designers have been failing for the entirety of the game to balance that out properly. They've either tried those rules, and we've seen it not work, such as in the early days of the game or during the BW-era, or we've had to have first turn rules. The current example is no attack for the player going T1... even though to this day we keep seeing Pokémon designed as if this wasn't a thing. No, not the cards with the special clause that allows them to still attack T1. I mean all those classic "set up" attacks that would be better if only you could use them on your first turn reliably, instead of only when you go second.

Ugh, still too long and rambling, but I'm out of time. Hopefully, this makes a tiny bit of sense. If not, no, Buzzwole-GX is not yet enough of a problem for people to quit over just it. If someone says they are quitting just because of it, they don't realize they've got some double standard that has allowed them to enjoy the game in the face of similarly overly powerful cards.
 
Otaku said:
Ugh, still too long and rambling, but I'm out of time. Hopefully, this makes a tiny bit of sense. If not, no, Buzzwole-GX is not yet enough of a problem for people to quit over just it. If someone says they are quitting just because of it, they don't realize they've got some double standard that has allowed them to enjoy the game in the face of similarly overly powerful cards.
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Precisely. Me posing this question doesn't mean I think it's too strong; I'm just saying I've come across people who believe it to be.
 
I was the one with the ninjask deck!

huh.

interesting...

I personally believe buzzwole is too overpowered. I can't play anything fun (lurantis venusaur) because buzzwole gets set up wayyyyy too quickly

It just makes me SALTY

I have 3 friends who are going to worlds, and my brother is going to worlds

*sigh

were you testing a deck for next season? the hoopa and stuff?
 
According to how it performed at the most recent regionals, almost no pros were using Malamar and were going with Buzzwole builds instead—some even opting for more baby Buzzwole.

It’s tier 1 now, but it’ll be around post rotation
 
The Last Shaymin said:
I was the one with the ninjask deck!

huh.

interesting...

I personally believe buzzwole is too overpowered. I can't play anything fun (lurantis venusaur) because buzzwole gets set up wayyyyy too quickly

It just makes me SALTY

I have 3 friends who are going to worlds, and my brother is going to worlds

*sigh

were you testing a deck for next season? the hoopa and stuff?
Click to expand...

Yeah I was the guy testing the Zoro/Hoopa deck. No clue that was you. Small world, huh?
 
Buzzwole just has a ton of support... After rotation it won't be quite as prominent.

I personally think Zoroark is a much better card and don't mind a format dominated by Buzzwole.


On a side note do you guys ever play at the Game on in Puyallup.
 
Not broken, but not healthy for the format either. While in theory the deck is balanced by counters in Malamar variants, I found that wasn't really the case in Madison. I ran Gardevoir-GX/Zoroark-GX (really regretting not just sticking with Golisopod-GX/Garbodor) and I ran into 4 Buzzwole-GX variants, 2 Dawn Wings Necrozma-GX, 1 Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX, and 1 opponent that didn't show up. I had Mew-EX in the deck as a tech against Buzzwole-GX, and what happened pretty much every time is I would hold off on it till late game to catch my opponent off guard and get rid of a beefed up Buzzwole-GX, only to get OHKO'd by Baby Buzz. The card just has a lot working for it. As @CrownAxe points out, the deck is losing Max Elixir and Strong Energy, which I think will knock it back a lot. Right now the BDIF is Buzzwole-GX, but it's also countered by Malamar variants, which are countered by Zoroark-GX variants, it all balances out in theory. Just wait a couple of months and it'll seem a lot less intimidating. Also IMO Mewtwo from Generations is the better tech, can hit Knock Out's with out relying on Zoroark-GX, and is just our of range for Baby Buzz.
 
pine_ddog said:
Not broken, but not healthy for the format either. While in theory the deck is balanced by counters in Malamar variants, I found that wasn't really the case in Madison. I ran Gardevoir-GX/Zoroark-GX (really regretting not just sticking with Golisopod-GX/Garbodor) and I ran into 4 Buzzwole-GX variants, 2 Dawn Wings Necrozma-GX, 1 Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX, and 1 opponent that didn't show up. I had Mew-EX in the deck as a tech against Buzzwole-GX, and what happened pretty much every time is I would hold off on it till late game to catch my opponent off guard and get rid of a beefed up Buzzwole-GX, only to get OHKO'd by Baby Buzz. The card just has a lot working for it. As @CrownAxe points out, the deck is losing Max Elixir and Strong Energy, which I think will knock it back a lot. Right now the BDIF is Buzzwole-GX, but it's also countered by Malamar variants, which are countered by Zoroark-GX variants, it all balances out in theory. Just wait a couple of months and it'll seem a lot less intimidating. Also IMO Mewtwo from Generations is the better tech, can hit Knock Out's with out relying on Zoroark-GX, and is just our of range for Baby Buzz.
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That and it only coughs up one prize.
 
It's just the way TCG's work. But there's always a bigger fish on the horizon.

Understandably, some people burn out of getting beat by the same decklist over and over. At that point I think it's just important to play fun decks and schedule in time to play others similar to yourself who also enjoy playing fun/rogue decks.

It'll be interesting to see how much Buzzwole will be played at the UK Sheffield Regional's this month..
 
No, the problem is Strong Energy and all the other buff the Fighting-type gets as well as Max Elixir.
 
Cheach said:
It's just the way TCG's work. But there's always a bigger fish on the horizon.
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Which is why I no longer consider myself a fan of TCG's in general. I think we as customers need to demand better, but until we do, it'll be the same old same old.
 
Otaku said:
Which is why I no longer consider myself a fan of TCG's in general. I think we as customers need to demand better, but until we do, it'll be the same old same old.
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Reasonable logic. Do you not buy any TCG products anymore then?
 
Cheach said:
It's just the way TCG's work. But there's always a bigger fish on the horizon.

Understandably, some people burn out of getting beat by the same decklist over and over. At that point I think it's just important to play fun decks and schedule in time to play others similar to yourself who also enjoy playing fun/rogue decks.

It'll be interesting to see how much Buzzwole will be played at the UK Sheffield Regional's this month..
Click to expand...

It's not just a TCG problem, unfortunately. Anyone remember CHALK?
 
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