Discussion Does Dragon Need a Basic Energy Type?

[crystal_pidgeot]

Was not trying to be rude it's just how you said the things to crystal_pidgeot and how rude it was when you explain something to someone or point them right direction it does not help to yell or curse at them it can really bring them down

Don't worry about me, I can handle a few bad words. I've been on the internet for half my life.

Okay. I'll take this bait.

Me too!

Not really. He hasn't backed up his opinion with anything other than a suggestion that since it doesn't require any outside resources to beat Alolan Ninetales, that Kommo-o is good, never mind that since Shred is your main attack you should want a way to power it up reliably - which we are losing to the rotation.

I've given reasons as to why I'm against DDE getting reprinted, for the same reasons I'm against Boost Energy and Scramble Energy getting reprinted. Reprinting it, not even one format later takes away the point of having two Energy cost to nerf the powerful attack.

Kommo-o-GX doesn't need outside resources to get the KO, which is going to be huge in a slower and possibly tank format. Remember what Sigilyph and Suicune did? If forced people to run ways to deal with it. Kommo-o-GX can OHKO A. Ninetales and in a format with a nerfed Lysandre and much slower setup, it's not like its a big deal to get three Energy down. You just have to play better.

Yes it does, and I understand that 'bad' is relative because new sets come out all the time. Right now, in this format, Kommo-o is bad.

Mega Audino-EX was a bad card and still is but it won worlds.

I never said I didn't care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't post. I get triggered by people like you two who have this "everyone's a winner" mindset and insist that X card is really good guys but have nothing to back up their claims.

I don't have a "everyone's a winner" mindset. I'm not even sure what such a thing is. I've played at a time when this was the format. Setup was like three or four turns and big attacks didn't happen to like turn five or six and even then, a lot of decks we're viable but there were a ton of concepts.

I never said Kommo-o-GX was a really good card. I just said it is good. I never said which format it was good in either. It's not this trash card because you can't figure out how to make it work. Unlike you, I don't need to wait for someone else to win with it before I consider it because I'm good like that. I bet 1 dollar that I'd 2-0 you in a best of three.

Those cards don't exist for Kommo-o and nothing in the foreseeable future looks like it's going to help him out either. Masked Royal doesn't even work on him.

Let's not focus on Kommo-o for a second. Noivern-GX is a viable card and Dragonair can make other Dragons decent. The entire type doesn't have to be usable.

I'm plenty open minded. I would be more than happy to admit I was wrong if anyone in the world could come up with a winning Kommo-o list that can top more than a League Challenge, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

I seriously doubt that. You seem to be the kind of player that won't make innovations with a deck and would wait to see what other people do first and then insist that you're good at the game. A deck that wins any event is something worth keeping an eye on, since it had to play through at least four rounds of other meta decks and if it wins a Masters event, where the best players are, you can't trash talk it.

I give crystal_pidgeot advice all the time but he ignores it :

Bad advice is no advice at all but I'm curious on what this advice is you give me though? I don't seem to actually recall any advice given.

 

[Ilir Nikqi]

I think they need a reprint of DDE. if not they need a whole new mechanics where every D (no pun intended lol) attacks doesnt require 4-5 energies

 

[Mege]

I think dragons need both DDE and more support. At the moment it's not like they're super viable anyway. I'd say a supporter, Zinnia would be fitting too!

 

[PMJ]

This is still a deck with two Energy types. it doesn't matter where they come from. Dragon deck can use Dragonair as their engine to get energy in play.

Yes, it matters a lot where they come from, because your argument was that players want the game to do all the work for them. What do you call it when a single Pokemon is capable of streaming the exact two basic Energy you need every single turn? Of course Vikavolt/Bulu doesn't have issues with running two basic Energy. Vikavolt takes them out of your deck for you. I don't know how I can make this any clearer.

I'm not saying every card is good. Kommo-o-GX isn't a bad card. Sure I don't want to pull it out of packs, as do most of you but I'm also sure no one here wants to pull Pidgeot-EX out of a pack either. It's not a great card but it's not bad either. Kommo-o-GX can't be blocked and that's something you're not seeing.

Pidgeot is one of my favorite Pokemon from gen 1. I actually have a playset of full art ones on PTCGO. So from one Pidgeot fan to another, I would have no qualms with pulling one out of that horse's ass set.

Kommo-o can't be blocked by Alolan Ninetales but you're acting like not having to play around it suddenly makes it viable and that's wrong. Utilizing alternate attackers or any of the six trillion switching cards we have in format is not some next-level kind of play, it's something every good deck does. It's not anything out of the ordinary. Yes, you don't have to do that when fighting Alolan Ninetales, the one Pokemon in the game that Kommo-o bodies. Okay cool. Now if Alolan Ninetales shows up in every deck, and suddenly all the other decks out there that are better than Kommo-o quit being good, and consistently attaching four Energy to your Stage 2 attacker so you can 2HKO things that aren't called Alolan Ninetales becomes a viable tournament-level strategy--without using Double Dragon Energy--then Kommo-o might be good.

It's a bad card, plain and simple. Just because you might win some locals with it doesn't mean it's not bad. And as I said before, what 'bad' is fluctuates. What's bad now might not be bad later but that isn't the case for Kommo-o.

I know it's not Jesus' best friend but I look at cards as a whole and think about how one could use it. I will admit the deck is slow, even with DDE but I look at it and see the same thing happening to every Stage 2 deck, even with support. Water decks aren't top tier right now because of Max Elixir and Aqua Patch. The problem for Stage 2 decks is the speed of the game.

Just because you can build a list for it doesn't mean it's not bad. You can build a list for literally anything; all that means is you built a deck for a shitmon. Not sure where you're going with the water thing.

Sure, this is true but the only Pokemon I can think of that has a move like that is Yanmega BREAK.

Ampharos-EX, Bruxish SM, Mega Mewtwo X, Honchkrow GR, anything with Swift, the list goes on.

A perk of the Dragon type, right? And Charizard, can't forget about the OG Dragon.

I'd say it's more a perk of being Rayquaza. The attack is still hefty. And most Charizard cards are terrible.

Is this the best you got? You were one of those people who said Mega Audino-EX sucked didn't you?

I actually went back and checked to see what, if anything, I said about Mega Audino, and wouldn't you know it, it was in another thread where you said something stupid and I swooped in to set you straight.

As I said in that thread, Audino was a meta call. Night March was everywhere and Audino gave it the hands. Night March rotated and Audino rode off into the sunset because it was a stupid card in just about every other situation. Do you still test against Audino when you prepare for...whatever it is you do?

I'm not saying it didn't but no one here said why it exactly needs to be reprinted. Why not reprint Boost Energy or Scramble Energy? I know Colorless Pokemon will be better with it and how well they would synergize with Max Potion. Why doesn't Mega Pidgeot deserve its one Energy Max Potion Mach Cyclone and Noivern-GX deserves a one Energy item lock? God forbid you have to *shutter* wait a turn to attack!

DDE should be reprinted because it keeps what few viable dragons we have viable. Printing a basic Dragon Energy would invalidate every Dragon-type card that exists, both the good ones and the bad ones. Boost Energy would get little to no use if it were reprinted because most attack costs aren't suited for it. Like I said, only Colorless Pokemon and a couple of shitmons like Alolan Golem. Scramble Energy is busted. It never should have been printed.

I find it funny that you lobby for being able to instantly use Mach Cyclone and then ridicule people for wanting to attack quickly in the same breath. Just attach a DCE and Mega Turbo; there, now you are fully healed and back to swinging.

Also, Noivern-GX's one-Energy Item lock is only going to be good for Worlds, and that's only if they allow it to be used. Otherwise DDE is out and so is your argument.

Well, DCE was out of the game for like 12 years before it came back. Warp Energy has been out of the game for a while too. It's not like it's back in the very next format.

You missed my point. You complained that DDE didn't need to exist in Standard because it had run its course. Tell me then why PCL feels like Warp Energy needed a reprint when we have thousands of switching cards available to us already? Did we really need another switching card? Cyclone would have been a better choice to add some disruption to some decks. Hell, even a re-balanced Call Energy would have been preferable to Warp.

Lets look at all the non-Colorless users.
- etc...

You get the point.

And? Who cares about any of that? I was responding to your argument that Colorless Pokemon are the worst users of DCE and that's flat out untrue. Wait, you mean there are more Pokemon of the ten other types in this game that can effectively use DCE than one single type? Stop the presses! Of course the list of non-Colorless users is bigger, and of course some of them are gonna handle DCEs like a pro. That list doesn't really prove anything.

Missing what point? Sure their attack cost can be paid with whatever I want but that doesn't mean anything. Yes Colorless Pokemon can be splashed but so can most other types. I can put a Tapu Lele-GX in any deck I want, just like Tauros-GX, or any other Pokemon that requires a DCE attack cost. Not all Dragon type Pokemon need to be viable, just like most Pokemon in a type aren't viable. Me any by bird bro are doing well for ourselves. Just ask my friend.

Just a fyi, calm down bro. Most of what you said wasn't even called for.

No, most other types cannot be just thrown into whatever deck you want. Lele and Tauros require just a DCE, so they are exceptions (and Tauros is Colorless). Are you gonna throw Espeon-GX into a Deciplume deck? Of course not. You're not going to mix your Energy types because you're going to kill your consistency. Sound familiar?

And no, not all Dragon-types need to be viable. But it's a problem when none of them are viable. And by viable I mean can do more than top locals or a League Challenge. #MakeDragonRayGreatAgainAndByAgainIMeanAtAll

Me too!

My post wasn't bait, friend. I legitimately wonder how you fare at tournaments with a mindset like yours when all you do is complain about meta decks and why Pidgeot isn't tier one.

I've given reasons as to why I'm against DDE getting reprinted, for the same reasons I'm against Boost Energy and Scramble Energy getting reprinted. Reprinting it, not even one format later takes away the point of having two Energy cost to nerf the powerful attack.

Literally what

I'm against Boost Energy and Scramble Energy getting reprinted

I'd LOVE to have Boost Energy reprinted because I love the idea of a one Energy Mach Cyclone or Scramble Energy. Those Energy have never been reprinted.

So which is it?

Kommo-o-GX doesn't need outside resources to get the KO, which is going to be huge in a slower and possibly tank format. Remember what Sigilyph and Suicune did? If forced people to run ways to deal with it. Kommo-o-GX can OHKO A. Ninetales and in a format with a nerfed Lysandre and much slower setup, it's not like its a big deal to get three Energy down. You just have to play better.

Thank you for repeating the thing I said you said. Again, being able to kill Alolan Ninetales is a plus, but it's not enough to make him viable, mainly because Pokemon cards other than Alolan Ninetales and Kommo-o-GX exist and they do things.

Guzma is not a nerfed Lysandre. It's just different and requires more strategy to use effectively (or just more free retreaters!).

And it's not a question of just playing better. If you're expecting your opponent to sit there and let you attach four Energy to your dudes (btw Shred costs four Energy, we're losing DDE remember), you're out of your mind.

I don't have a "everyone's a winner" mindset. I'm not even sure what such a thing is. I've played at a time when this was the format. Setup was like three or four turns and big attacks didn't happen to like turn five or six and even then, a lot of decks we're viable but there were a ton of concepts.

What I meant was you feel like you have to justify the usage of bad cards by claiming "oh you just don't know how to use it" or "it's not great but it's not bad!" Things like that. Just because you agree that the worst Pokemon-EX ever printed is a bad card doesn't mean you're right about other bulk GXs being anything but awful (PS Wishiwashi is outclassed by Drampa-GX, even with Golduck BREAK).

I never said Kommo-o-GX was a really good card. I just said it is good. I never said which format it was good in either. It's not this trash card because you can't figure out how to make it work. Unlike you, I don't need to wait for someone else to win with it before I consider it because I'm good like that. I bet 1 dollar that I'd 2-0 you in a best of three.

It is not good. In which format is it good in? It's not trash because I can't make it work, it's trash because the attacks printed on it are bad. That's all there is to it.

I have no problem deferring to people with actual skill and proven results because I have neither of those things.

Are you suggesting we have a mirror match or something?

Let's not focus on Kommo-o for a second. Noivern-GX is a viable card and Dragonair can make other Dragons decent. The entire type doesn't have to be usable.

Dragonair doesn't solve the Energy consistency issues because, unlike Vikavolt, you still have to blow resources on pulling them from your deck, whereas with Vikavolt as soon as you get it into play you are set. I'll give you half credit, though, because Professor's Letter is a thing.

I seriously doubt that. You seem to be the kind of player that won't make innovations with a deck and would wait to see what other people do first and then insist that you're good at the game. A deck that wins any event is something worth keeping an eye on, since it had to play through at least four rounds of other meta decks and if it wins a Masters event, where the best players are, you can't trash talk it.

I can safely say that not once have I ever claimed to be good at this game. I netdeck unashamedly and the only time I ever topped an event was a League Challenge where three out of my four opponents drew dead against me (and two of those three were auto wins for them!).

Like I said, if Kommo-o ever wins something relevant, then I'll change my mind.

Bad advice is no advice at all but I'm curious on what this advice is you give me though? I don't seem to actually recall any advice given.

- realize that your favorite pokemon is a meme deck at best
- realize that that's not a bad thing
- embrace the memes
- don't get bent out of shape when the meta changes in a way you don't like
- instead, adapt
- stop wasting valuable testing time fighting shitty meme decks and instead focus on decks you might see if you plan on being anywhere near the top tables


TL;DR ON-TOPIC PART, SORRY I DERAILED THIS THREAD:

If you print basic Dragon Energy all existing Dragon-type cards become even more unusable since they all require existing Energy colors to attack except baby Drampa I guess. Don't do it.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Yes, it matters a lot where they come from, because your argument was that players want the game to do all the work for them. What do you call it when a single Pokemon is capable of streaming the exact two basic Energy you need every single turn? Of course Vikavolt/Bulu doesn't have issues with running two basic Energy. Vikavolt takes them out of your deck for you. I don't know how I can make this any clearer.

Yes, the Energy comes out of the deck but the deck still uses two of them. Not all Grass and Electric decks can use it. It has synergy with some, sure but the deck is clunky and doesn't always work. DDE goes in any Dragon deck, no work required. You just play it down and be better off.

Pidgeot is one of my favorite Pokemon from gen 1. I actually have a playset of full art ones on PTCGO. So from one Pidgeot fan to another, I would have no qualms with pulling one out of that horse's ass set.

Fair enough.

Kommo-o can't be blocked by Alolan Ninetales but you're acting like not having to play around it suddenly makes it viable and that's wrong. Utilizing alternate attackers or any of the six trillion switching cards we have in format is not some next-level kind of play, it's something every good deck does. It's not anything out of the ordinary. Yes, you don't have to do that when fighting Alolan Ninetales, the one Pokemon in the game that Kommo-o bodies. Okay cool. Now if Alolan Ninetales shows up in every deck, and suddenly all the other decks out there that are better than Kommo-o quit being good, and consistently attaching four Energy to your Stage 2 attacker so you can 2HKO things that aren't called Alolan Ninetales becomes a viable tournament-level strategy--without using Double Dragon Energy--then Kommo-o might be good.

Hex Maniac rotates in a month as Escape Rope does nothing but bring another A. Ninetales into the Active spot. Kommo-o-GX doesn't have to jump through hoops to deal with it. That is a big deal in deck building because you don't have to do certain things. The format will be much slower so this might not be a issue.

It's a bad card, plain and simple. Just because you might win some locals with it doesn't mean it's not bad. And as I said before, what 'bad' is fluctuates. What's bad now might not be bad later but that isn't the case for Kommo-o.

True.

Ampharos-EX, Bruxish SM, Mega Mewtwo X, Honchkrow GR, anything with Swift, the list goes on.

Yeah, they aren't Colorless Pokemon and often require just two random energy to do something, something most Colorless Pokemon don't. Every other type is a better user of DCE.

I'd say it's more a perk of being Rayquaza. The attack is still hefty. And most Charizard cards are terrible.

It is for the most part but this true for the type in general.

I actually went back and checked to see what, if anything, I said about Mega Audino, and wouldn't you know it, it was in another thread where you said something stupid and I swooped in to set you straight.

Going to need a source on that.

As I said in that thread, Audino was a meta call. Night March was everywhere and Audino gave it the hands. Night March rotated and Audino rode off into the sunset because it was a stupid card in just about every other situation. Do you still test against Audino when you prepare for...whatever it is you do?

I test for everything so I have knowledge against that match. If A. Ninetales is everywhere, then Kommo-o-GX can win if that are its matches. Meta calls do matter, as you said.

DDE should be reprinted because it keeps what few viable dragons we have viable. Printing a basic Dragon Energy would invalidate every Dragon-type card that exists, both the good ones and the bad ones. Boost Energy would get little to no use if it were reprinted because most attack costs aren't suited for it. Like I said, only Colorless Pokemon and a couple of shitmons like Alolan Golem. Scramble Energy is busted. It never should have been printed.

DDE doesn't need to exist, like the other special Energy cards before it. DCE and Rainbow Energy are staples to the game, so they stick around. DDE isn't one of these cards and keeping it around for the sake of a type ruins that type. Why even make Pokemon with two Energy types if you keep DDE around?

I find it funny that you lobby for being able to instantly use Mach Cyclone and then ridicule people for wanting to attack quickly in the same breath. Just attach a DCE and Mega Turbo; there, now you are fully healed and back to swinging.

I don't lobby for it. I don't want that. What I'm saying is if DDE should exist, then why not Boost Energy? If you want that one turn item lock, then I want my one turn Mach Cyclone. Neither of these are good for the game.

Also, Noivern-GX's one-Energy Item lock is only going to be good for Worlds, and that's only if they allow it to be used. Otherwise DDE is out and so is your argument.

The argument is should DDE be reprinted. I'm saying no because it allows that.

You missed my point. You complained that DDE didn't need to exist in Standard because it had run its course. Tell me then why PCL feels like Warp Energy needed a reprint when we have thousands of switching cards available to us already? Did we really need another switching card? Cyclone would have been a better choice to add some disruption to some decks. Hell, even a re-balanced Call Energy would have been preferable to Warp.

I don't know why they decided to reprint Warp Energy. We have a ton of cards that increase damage but they keep making them. They saw what Dark Patch did to the game but made Aqua Patch. They saw what Mewtwo-EX did to the game and continued to make the effect. We have two promo Tapu Koko-GX cards, one as a shiny and I bet we'll see six Charizard-GX cards before we get a Cresselia-GX. Warp Energy is a ten year card I think and has been out of the format for a very long time. DDE is still in the game and people want it reprinted. People are spoiled.

And? Who cares about any of that? I was responding to your argument that Colorless Pokemon are the worst users of DCE and that's flat out untrue. Wait, you mean there are more Pokemon of the ten other types in this game that can effectively use DCE than one single type? Stop the presses! Of course the list of non-Colorless users is bigger, and of course some of them are gonna handle DCEs like a pro. That list doesn't really prove anything.

No one runs DCE just for Colorless types. The card wasn't designed for Colorless types. They can use it, sure but so can other Pokemon. Colorless doesn't have attackers like M Mewtwo-EX. You run it in Xerneas BREAK because it's a +40 damage. Most meta decks now run it because their cost are often a single colored Energy and a DCE, which is the same cost for most Colorless attackers.

No, most other types cannot be just thrown into whatever deck you want. Lele and Tauros require just a DCE, so they are exceptions (and Tauros is Colorless). Are you gonna throw Espeon-GX into a Deciplume deck? Of course not. You're not going to mix your Energy types because you're going to kill your consistency. Sound familiar?

You can't run most Colorless Pokemon in every deck either. Of the top of my head, the most splashable ones are Tauros-GX, Lugia-EX and Drampa-GX. I guess you could put Pidgeot-EX in any deck but it wouldn't be as good as the above. Most Colorless mons need their own deck to work correctly so even they can't play out of their own type. Would you put M Rayquaza-EX in Deciplume?

And no, not all Dragon-types need to be viable. But it's a problem when none of them are viable. And by viable I mean can do more than top locals or a League Challenge. #MakeDragonRayGreatAgainAndByAgainIMeanAtAll

Not all types are viable right now.

My post wasn't bait, friend. I legitimately wonder how you fare at tournaments with a mindset like yours when all you do is complain about meta decks and why Pidgeot isn't tier one.

I've never once complained that Pidgeot isn't tier one. I said it's tier 2.5 to three at best but my build doesn't have many bad matchups.

Thank you for repeating the thing I said you said. Again, being able to kill Alolan Ninetales is a plus, but it's not enough to make him viable, mainly because Pokemon cards other than Alolan Ninetales and Kommo-o-GX exist and they do things.

If the format call for it.

Guzma is not a nerfed Lysandre. It's just different and requires more strategy to use effectively (or just more free retreaters!).

I say it's a nerfed Lysandre because you have to do something more. Not all decks can run this card equally.

And it's not a question of just playing better. If you're expecting your opponent to sit there and let you attach four Energy to your dudes (btw Shred costs four Energy, we're losing DDE remember), you're out of your mind.

I mean, you can attach two and a DCE. Max Elixir still exist in the game and you have the new Raikou card to help it out. The game is much slower post rotation so who know.

What I meant was you feel like you have to justify the usage of bad cards by claiming "oh you just don't know how to use it" or "it's not great but it's not bad!" Things like that. Just because you agree that the worst Pokemon-EX ever printed is a bad card doesn't mean you're right about other bulk GXs being anything but awful (PS Wishiwashi is outclassed by Drampa-GX, even with Golduck BREAK).

A lot of cards are better than others. Wishiwashi-GX can fit into a water deck using Choice Band and Kuiku and hit something for weakness. Even if they don't, 50 for one is still good.

It is not good. In which format is it good in? It's not trash because I can't make it work, it's trash because the attacks printed on it are bad. That's all there is to it.

Again, wait and see how things play out.

I have no problem deferring to people with actual skill and proven results because I have neither of those things.

Neither do I but most of the players just copy what wins and Pokemon's skill cap isn't all that high.

Are you suggesting we have a mirror match or something?

A mirror match? I'm down for it but I assumed you'd be using a dark deck or something.

Dragonair doesn't solve the Energy consistency issues because, unlike Vikavolt, you still have to blow resources on pulling them from your deck, whereas with Vikavolt as soon as you get it into play you are set. I'll give you half credit, though, because Professor's Letter is a thing.

It's a option though. If you want to play with Dragons, they figure something out.

I can safely say that not once have I ever claimed to be good at this game. I netdeck unashamedly and the only time I ever topped an event was a League Challenge where three out of my four opponents drew dead against me (and two of those three were auto wins for them!).

My point exactly.

Like I said, if Kommo-o ever wins something relevant, then I'll change my mind.

Why wait for someone else to do the work?

- realize that your favorite pokemon is a meme deck at best
- realize that that's not a bad thing
- embrace the memes
- don't get bent out of shape when the meta changes in a way you don't like
- instead, adapt
- stop wasting valuable testing time fighting shitty meme decks and instead focus on decks you might see if you plan on being anywhere near the top tables

Not sure what this has to do with anything. I don't have a problem with meta decks, but I like to be ready for that random Salazzle deck.

TL;DR ON-TOPIC PART, SORRY I DERAILED THIS THREAD:

If you print basic Dragon Energy all existing Dragon-type cards become even more unusable since they all require existing Energy colors to attack except baby Drampa I guess. Don't do it.

That I can agree with. No point in doing it unless they make some huge meta statement.

 

[Kietharr]

Even accounting for post rotation slowness I don't see a way for Kommo-o to elegantly overcome the jank factor you have with two basic energy types in one deck without built in ways to deal with that like strong charge or geotech system, speed is the lesser of the two inherent problems dragons have imo. And I don't see much of a reason to work towards doing that because nothing about the card is really exceptional. If you're worried about nuking through Ninetales there are two solid metal decks that have no problem with it whatsoever. Having your nuke on a GX move is pretty disadvantageous compared to something like Solgaleo, where you have a set up GX move and can chain together multiple OHKOs.

Noivern will be the first really good dragon card we've had since Giratina back in the day when mega decks were relevant, but it loses DDE almost immediately after it becomes legal, it will still be okay but that's only because it doesn't have to deal with the 2 energy type jank factor, it only needs darkness energies to item lock.

Actually, if we got a basic dragon that had types that aligned with Vikavolt's grass/electric or Metagross's Steel/Psychic, it could be a good card. But the only dragon with grass/electric costs has generally been Dragonite and Steel/Psychic is maybe like Dialga which is almost always a metal card.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Even accounting for post rotation slowness I don't see a way for Kommo-o to elegantly overcome the jank factor you have with two basic energy types in one deck without built in ways to deal with that like strong charge or geotech system, speed is the lesser of the two inherent problems dragons have imo. And I don't see much of a reason to work towards doing that because nothing about the card is really exceptional. If you're worried about nuking through Ninetales there are two solid metal decks that have no problem with it whatsoever. Having your nuke on a GX move is pretty disadvantageous compared to something like Solgaleo, where you have a set up GX move and can chain together multiple OHKOs.

Noivern will be the first really good dragon card we've had since Giratina back in the day when mega decks were relevant, but it loses DDE almost immediately after it becomes legal, it will still be okay but that's only because it doesn't have to deal with the 2 energy type jank factor, it only needs darkness energies to item lock.

Actually, if we got a basic dragon that had types that aligned with Vikavolt's grass/electric or Metagross's Steel/Psychic, it could be a good card. But the only dragon with grass/electric costs has generally been Dragonite and Steel/Psychic is maybe like Dialga which is almost always a metal card.

The new A. Ninetales has an Ability that blocks damage from EX and GX Pokemon.

 

[Purrloin]

I like Dragon cards using other energy, but I think they could benefit from some rebalancing of cost and damage. It's hard enough to attach 2 different basic energies onto them in a timely manner, let alone an additional [C][C], or 1-2 additional Basic energies in many cases. And then there's the fact that many Dragon attacks seem to come with discards or coin flips, making it even more cumbersome.

I rarely saw people using Dragon types prior to DDE, and I think I might blame the high costs more than the fact that they need different Basic energy types. If you think about it, high cost attacks are rarely used even when it's a relatively easier [W][C][C][C] or such. If we could get the Dragons to have smaller costs, with perhaps a slight adjustment to damage output, I think we could see an increase in usage even with DDE gone.

 

[taschen88]

I like Dragon cards using other energy, but I think they could benefit from some rebalancing of cost and damage. It's hard enough to attach 2 different basic energies onto them in a timely manner, let alone an additional [C][C], or 1-2 additional Basic energies in many cases. And then there's the fact that many Dragon attacks seem to come with discards or coin flips, making it even more cumbersome.

I rarely saw people using Dragon types prior to DDE, and I think I might blame the high costs more than the fact that they need different Basic energy types. If you think about it, high cost attacks are rarely used even when it's a relatively easier [W][C][C][C] or such. If we could get the Dragons to have smaller costs, with perhaps a slight adjustment to damage output, I think we could see an increase in usage even with DDE gone.

Low-Energy cost fully-evolved Dragon Pokemon:

BW Dragons Exalted Garchomp was great! It even got reprinted in BW Legendary Treasures.
Haxorus from BW Plasma Blast needed to stack up [M] Energy to hit hard, but its 2nd attack instantly KO'd any Plasma Pokemon (including EX).
XY Breakthrough Haxorus was also had potential, sadly the XY era wasn't really a generation for Dragons to shine IMO.

Never forget, Fluffy-Chomp was a thing!

I, too, like how Dragons use different Energy types, so they could fit into other decks with more ease. Also, I think that mechanic is special to them.
Dragons just need more trainer and ability support... And badass cards like DEX Chomp. Personally looking forward to Noivern-GX, it's like Seismitoad-EX all over again.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Low-Energy cost fully-evolved Dragon Pokemon:

BW Dragons Exalted Garchomp was great! It even got reprinted in BW Legendary Treasures.
Haxorus from BW Plasma Blast needed to stack up [M] Energy to hit hard, but its 2nd attack instantly KO'd any Plasma Pokemon (including EX).
XY Breakthrough Haxorus was also had potential, sadly the XY era wasn't really a generation for Dragons to shine IMO.

Never forget, Fluffy-Chomp was a thing!

I, too, like how Dragons use different Energy types, so they could fit into other decks with more ease. Also, I think that mechanic is special to them.
Dragons just need more trainer and ability support... And badass cards like DEX Chomp. Personally looking forward to Noivern-GX, it's like Seismitoad-EX all over again.

I see Dragon type Pokemon as the exact opposite of Colorless Pokemon. Colorless Pokemon can be put into any deck or be their own thing with any engine or non-specific support whereas Dragon Pokemon can't be put into any deck or run together. Back then, decks used to be many types and sometimes ran two or three Energy types and if you wanted to, you could put a Dragon in your deck and be much better off with them. A deck running both Fire and Lightning attackers could put in a Rayquaza ex and have a threat or a way to nuke something.

Dragons were always a way to make a deck sweeter if you wanted to run them. They weren't ever designed to be the main focus of a deck.

 

[taschen88]

I agree, and what I meant with "fit into more decks with ease" is that they fit into either decks of the Energy types they use.
For example, PLB Haxorus would do well in a mostly-Metal deck in expanded, esp with PHF Bronzong.
BKP Haxorus is still good in Standard. Granting that all Dragons from XY era onwards are weak to Fairy, it's good to mix it with Metal types anyway.
And ROS and SM1 Dragonite can get a boost from SM1 Vikavolt. Quite clunky to fit into a deck though, 2 Stage 2 lines. And FUF Dragonite-EX in Expanded is outclassed by the newer GRI Tapu Koko-GX.

And yes, Dragon type isn't remotely as versatile as Colorless, but I think it's supposed to work that way.
As I've mentioned in a previous reply, thematically Dragons have always been rare compared to other Pokemon... And using different Energy kind of fits into that lore.
I'm not completely against Dragon getting its own Basic Energy (should it happen eventually), but I'm content with the existing mechanic.

Ah, yes, I remember when a lot more people used 2 Energy types in deck building. It's just that more people nowadays are more concerned with being competitive... And dual Energy decks are usually now just "fun" decks. Well, theme decks are still around. Anyhoo, I still believe Dragon decks can be great again. We just need more ability and/or trainer card combos in the upcoming expansion sets. Hopefully Dragons will have a time to shine this gen.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I agree, and what I meant with "fit into more decks with ease" is that they fit into either decks of the Energy types they use.
For example, PLB Haxorus would do well in a mostly-Metal deck in expanded, esp with PHF Bronzong.
BKP Haxorus is still good in Standard. Granting that all Dragons from XY era onwards are weak to Fairy, it's good to mix it with Metal types anyway.
And ROS and SM1 Dragonite can get a boost from SM1 Vikavolt. Quite clunky to fit into a deck though, 2 Stage 2 lines. And FUF Dragonite-EX in Expanded is outclassed by the newer GRI Tapu Koko-GX.

And yes, Dragon type isn't remotely as versatile as Colorless, but I think it's supposed to work that way.
As I've mentioned in a previous reply, thematically Dragons have always been rare compared to other Pokemon... And using different Energy kind of fits into that lore.
I'm not completely against Dragon getting its own Basic Energy (should it happen eventually), but I'm content with the existing mechanic.

Ah, yes, I remember when a lot more people used 2 Energy types in deck building. It's just that more people nowadays are more concerned with being competitive... And dual Energy decks are usually now just "fun" decks. Well, theme decks are still around. Anyhoo, I still believe Dragon decks can be great again. We just need more ability and/or trainer card combos in the upcoming expansion sets. Hopefully Dragons will have a time to shine this gen.

That's what I'm hoping for but I feel whatever they do with the Dragon type will break it. I would be fine with a DDE that was discarded at the end of the turn but I would want Dragons to return to just being a boss mon in decks that ran the Energy types.

 

[Latte1504]

For example, PLB Haxorus would do well in a mostly-Metal deck in expanded, esp with PHF Bronzong.
BKP Haxorus is still good in Standard. Granting that all Dragons from XY era onwards are weak to Fairy, it's good to mix it with Metal types anyway.
And ROS and SM1 Dragonite can get a boost from SM1 Vikavolt. Quite clunky to fit into a deck though, 2 Stage 2 lines. And FUF Dragonite-EX in Expanded is outclassed by the newer GRI Tapu Koko-GX.

Can you back any of this up with results?

 

[Dave Summers]

Can you back any of this up with results?

Not every good deck needs to be a tier 1 or 2 deck, and there's not lots of Expanded tournaments or people willing to test out Haxorus/Bronzong and get itemlocked or OHKO'd by a Joltik.

But, as said by taschen, Haxorus BKT is a GREAT fun deck. It's Garchomp/Altaria on steroids, but gets countered really easily. Still a fun and low cost deck to destroy local Leagues.

I also was about to go on a rant on the competitiveness of the people on this place. Not every good deck needs to win regionals to be a good deck. People can have fun while playing this, you know?

 

[taschen88]

Can you back any of this up with results?

Ummm... how do I backup proof for non-meta Expanded deck strategies?

All I can do is suggest you try building the decks yourself and see how they fare:
-PHF Bronzong + PLB Haxorus + BKP Genesect-EX or PHF Dialga-EX - Plasma decks are still a thing in Expanded
-SM1 Vikavolt + FUF Dragonite-EX as main attacker - It was fun when SM1 was new but now it's been outclassed by GRI Koko-GX (no Weakness)
->Standard variant is the non-EX Dragonite from ROS with the "Plus" Ancient Trait - kinda clunky to fit 2 Stage 2 lines in a deck though

Or you can watch YouTube videos of variants of these decks and try them out yourself in the PTCGO app/program.

Side-note, assuming the proof you're looking for is how the said decks fare against other decks: Must a deck always have to be meta-competitive to be good? Does everyone have to play using only meta decks of the moment? If so, that would take the fun out of experimenting on card combos, consequently also hindering the potential of finding out new anti-meta decks.

 

[Latte1504]

@Dave Summers @taschen88

When I think of good, I automatically assume that we are having a meta game discussion, considering that that is what a majority of this thread has been about. That means that I take the meta game into account. Even then, a concept like Haxorous/Bronzong is hanging out around tier 7+ and is outclassed by Solgaleo/Bronzong, which is also awful. Also, Koko is outclassed by Bulu in almost every way. On another note, Plasma is dead, and has been since around Cities 2013-2014 I believe.

 

[taschen88]

@Dave Summers @taschen88

On another note, Plasma is dead, and has been since around Cities 2013-2014 I believe.

As an online-only player I don't see the grasp of Plasma decks being dead, especially not in Legacy format.
Anyhoo, back to Dragons: Unfortunately, there is currently a lack of Dragon-centric decks in Standard. And that needs to change.

 

[Latte1504]

As an online-only player I don't see the grasp of Plasma decks being dead, especially not in Legacy format.

What? I was referring to in expanded.

Anyhoo, back to Dragons: Unfortunately, there is currently a lack of Dragon-centric decks in Standard. And that needs to change.

And there is a lack of fairy. And lightning. What's your point?

Here's my thesis: Dragon does not NEED a basic energy, nor is it likely to get one. We're 5 years in, and still no dragon energy, and if we were to get one, it would probably be in 2 years' time. Even then, it is not like Darkness or Metal where it has attack costs and JUST a special energy to fill it, it uses other energies. I believe dragons are generally unplayed is that they do not have good attacks, or these attacks are on stage 2 pokemon. Most attacks either cost too many energy and have a discard, and there is usually something better to play.

 

[Level100Games]

if double dragon energy is going to continue to rotate out and stay rotated then yes it does and likely will eventually get its own basic energy just like Metal and Dark did in diamond and pearl after being only special energy for years, give it time it will happen or they will keep double dragon energy around (not looking like it is though) Noivern GX doesn't exactly need DDE to be around for the format's sake

 

[Latte1504]

if double dragon energy is going to continue to rotate out and stay rotated then yes it does and likely will eventually get its own basic energy just like Metal and Dark did in diamond and pearl after being only special energy for years, give it time it will happen or they will keep double dragon energy around (not looking like it is though) Noivern GX doesn't exactly need DDE to be around for the format's sake

Here's the difference: Metal and Dark Pokemon had attack costs that could ONLY be filled by special energy, dragon attacks are filled by other energies.