Discussion Don't be surprised if Metal falls flat
- Thread starter Perfect_Shot
- Start date
Our lists are very similar. Have you had issues with running three Brigette? I run two myself and I thought about a third copy, but felt that I'd be drawing into it when I didn't need it. I also run a second Professor's Letter and 12 Metal Energy. 10 seems a little low for me!
10 games isn't a lot when it comes to playtesting. No, that does not automatically invalidate your results. Think of it more as "Alright! Now report back again when you get to 20 wins. 30 wins. Etc."
If you add mine, Gekki's, and Lannden's records together, we're 28-4 collectively. That's gotta count for something, right!?
In all seriousness, that's fair. I do plan on playing as many games as possible with it!
If you add mine, Gekki's, and Lannden's records together, we're 28-4 collectively. That's gotta count for something, right!?
In all seriousness, that's fair. I do plan on playing as many games as possible with it!
I know it is depressing, but even if all three of you are using the exact same list with the exact same skill, we really want several dozen results...
...for each major, competitive deck. Preferably for the minor ones as well.
Hi Otaku,
There are some issues here: I agree that larger and more representative data are needed to come to more valid conclusion. However, this also applies to statements that Dusk Mane Necrozma GX paired with Magnezone is not as viable as assumed by some. Thus instead of attempting to disprove your conclusion I question the empirical evidence leading to that conclusion.
You pointed out that Blastoise and Black Kyurem EX is not a main force in the current expanded format despite having access to Archie's Ace in the Hole. One reason for this not mentioned in that statement could be that we have access to decks that can ohko the defender which require less investment and effort to achieve this aim. For instance, Zoroark GX has access to Skyfield and can hit numbers more easily.
Another reason could be that we also have access to a more varied arsenal of 1-prize decks that can hold there own in this format rather well. Night March variant come to mind here. Decks such as Blastoise Black Kyurem EX tend to struggle more with decks that only give up one prize per knockout. In the new standard format this could hold for Garchomp decks that are able to ohko with 1-prize attackers.
You also mentioned that Magnezone from BKT never took off as evidence that Metal decks are likely to fail. Ignoring the fact that equating Metal decks with Dusk Mane Necrozma GX paired with Magnezone is an over-generalization there is also a subtile difference that questions the relevance of this evidence to the current discussion. Lightning decks did not have any means to obtain ohkos other than Pikachu EX, who is rather frail due to his low hitpoints. This is a main difference to Dusk Mane Necrozma GX. In addition, Magnezone BKT was released in a meta that had several options for viable decks focused on 1-prize attackers as mentioned above.
Personally I do not believe that Dusk Mane Necrozma Gx paired with Magnezone will be the center piece of the new standard format. I guess this is something that we can agree on. However, my main reason is that we recieved multiple options for decks that can ohko the defender with the release of this new set. In addition, we also recieved access to ohko decks that focus on 1-prize attackers. If the meta shifts toward those decks Dusk Mane Necrozma GX paired with Magnezone could have issues similar to those experienced by Blastoise Black Kyurem EX decks in the current expanded format and the former standard format before XY5 was released. However, if the meta keeps it focus on predominately Pokémon GX-focused decks it can be a true force.
Hi GekkisaiDaiNi,
Would be interested to see which decks you faced in the ten matches. I agree that Dusk Mane Necrozma GX paired with Magnezone can be real consistent and effective but a meta focused on 1-prize decks able to ohko or other ohko decks that can set up faster or replace their main attackers faster can be hrsh for that deck (cf. arguments listed above).
Nice. I haven't tested Dusk Mane Necrozma yet but I guess I will have to look out for it in the future (St. Luis Regoinals).
Hi, Dark Espeon.
Juuuuuuuuuuust in case I'm having one of those days (kind of short on sleep as I type this), I want to assure you that I'm actually in a pretty laidback, friendly mood, and open for debate and discussion. I also had a brain fart while correcting some grammar errors in my own text, and started doing it to the quoted text; this was not a deliberate attempt to misquote you or some weird attempt at one-upping you or anything like that... I just wasn't paying attention and have my peculiars about how I Type. >.> I also apologize as this post is going to be very, very lengthy.This is something that comes up later, but I want to clarify my position. Part of this is because I haven't really had a firm foundation yet, but it is easy for me to overstate my case. It is also easy for someone to catch bits and pieces of what I have said (I've got multiple comments in this thread), so let me summarize:
- A decent amount of people, in general, have been hyping up [M] Decks built mostly around the new [M] support releasing in SM - Ultra Prism... or enough that @Perfect_Shot thinks we needed a thread discussing how this isn't likely to be the case.
- If anyone (myself included) tried to state it as an absolute certainty all [M] decks would completely fail, that was a mistake or hyperbole or both.
- If only a few people have been hyping up such decks, it could also be a misunderstanding.
- Personally, I expect we'll see a lot of [M] decks seeing play, at least at first, due to the novelty of the latest set
- After that, I expect to see a large drop-off, with the best [M] decks being mildly competitive, with a slight chance of one being among the top decks.
- FYI, what really catches my eye is the new Alolan Dugtrio from SM - Ultra Prism.
- I almost wrote it off, but now I am thinking it will have the speed and attack power to offset its HP; a textbook glass cannon.
- Also, note how it may end up barely being a [M] deck; we'll see how much core Type support it really requires.
- [M] Decks may be popular for a little while, however, I expect this not due to their dominance but their prominence in the new expansion; people just like trying out the new stuff, whether it works or not, even in competitive play.
- A side discussion started comparing and contrasting Black Kyurem-EX (PLS) backed by Blastoise (BCR) to Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX backed by Magnezone from this set.
- I worry that some are blending the two points; they are related, but sometimes evidence of one doesn't matter to the other.
- It is a bit tricky comparing the lifespan of an entire deck to one that technically doesn't exist yet in competitive play.
Questioning the empirical evidence leading to a conclusion is one of the major ways to disprove a conclusion; as we are attempting to predict the imminent metagame, I'm not sure how else you could disprove it. Probably something I'm not thinking of, but I digress. Also, you should be doing such a thing in a good discussion!
I guess I should have added "...and hasn't been for some time." when referencing how Deluge decks just haven't been dominant for quite some time. As mentioned above, it gets confusing because we've got two separate but closely related discussions happening in this thread. I'm trying to just compare two archetypes in some comments, while in others I'm explaining why I don't think the newer of the two will share in the success of the older, and in places I'm am doing both.
As such, sometimes
- I am comparing Black Kyurem-EX (PLS) backed by Blastoise (BCR) during its time of peak performance to what I initially expect for Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX backed by Magnezone (ULP).
- I am comparing the most recent take on Blastoise (BCR) decks against Magnezone (ULP).
- I am comparing the most recent take on Blastoise (BCR) decks against Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX backed by Magnezone (ULP).
Don't "[ignore] the fact", but allow that I thought it was so obvious that it did not require stating. I actually began to type something about it in an earlier comment but deleted it as "extraneous" before posting. I was drawing comparisons between similar cards, not truly "equating" them. Magnezone (BKT) and Magnezone (ULP) have significant differences, but that doesn't mean lessons learned with one cannot transfer to the other., XY If we are going to nitpick, Magnezone (BKT) didn't have any good means of scoring OHKO's against larger targets other than Pikachu-EX (XY - Black Star Promos XY124) but they had some very useful attackers, such as Jolteon-EX and Raikou (BKT). We still have several viable options for decks focused on 1-Prize attackers, or at least utilizing them heavily; it may be less than at that time (I'm not sure off the top of my head), but there are still enough that this will still be an issue for any modern deck concerned about such things. This is not to say that Magnezone (ULP) with or without Dusk Mane Necrozma has no advantages over the past decks with which I've compared it... just that I am not convinced those differences are enough to make it a dominant deck now, which would be required for it to upstage Black Kyurem-EX (PLS) backed by Blastoise (BCR) during that archetype's peak period.
So... you basically came to almost the same conclusion for almost the same reasons, you just don't connect them with what I said.
Two last things: As I have come to realize I shouldn't leave it unsaid, please remember that Magnezone (ULP), like all Bench-sitters within OHKO range of an opposing deck, can be taken out instead of Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX or other attackers. One doesn't have to slug it out with Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX if one can KO the only Magnezone (ULP) an opponent has in play... at least if the opponent cannot replace said Magnezone right away. It is possible someone will set up multiple [M] Type attackers or load Dusk Mane Necrozma-GX with enough Energy for two attacks in a row, but that tends to be tricky and creates other risks. Lastly, I don't know what the official abbreviation for SM - Ultra Prism will be, so I went with one that fit the formula and made me laugh.
The 3rd Brigette actually helps alot; you need that T1 Brigette or you're kinda screwed. I also wanted more Energy at first but 10 has been fine so far.
@Dark Espeon, Glaceon/Zoroark, Decidueye/Zoroark, Buzzwole/Lycanroc, and a bunch of random crap. You know how TCGO is sometimes.
Played 14 more games and only lost 2, against VikaBulu.
Hi Otaku,
No problem here. I am not offended in any manner and I am a fan of solid discussions. However, keep in mind that I am not a native speaker. Hope I still manage to get my points across reasonably well.
[QUOTE="Otaku, post: 2925703, member 27238]Questioning the empirical evidence leading to a conclusion is one of the major ways to disprove a conclusion; as we are attempting to predict the imminent metagame, I'm not sure how else you could disprove it. Probably something I'm not thinking of, but I digress. Also, you should be doing such a thing in a good discussion![/QUOTE]
Another means would be to examine whether the conclusions you draw from the arguments provided logically necessarily follow from these arguments. However, asking for evidence in favor of the arguments, or providing counter-evidence that calls the validity of the arguments into question is often an easier path and also comes arcoss more friendly.
We do agree that the assumption that Dusk Mane Necrozma supported by Magnezone takes over the old and new meta could be less valid than assumed. While we previously had a dominance of GX-centered decks this may change with the addition of some 1-prize attacker decks able to achieve ohkos. Garchomp and Empoleon decks have already been mentioned as examples. In addition the range of decks able to ohko has broadened. As one example: Golisopod Lurantis variants become more stable with a small Leafeon line and will therefore be able to hit numbers more consistently.
I am not sold on the argument that Magnezone BKT had solid attackers at its time. If that would have been the case the deck would have performed much better. This is a main difference between the old and new Magnezone that I wanted to point out.
While we agree on several points some of the reasons for doing so differ, and there are also subtile differences in the conclusions we reach. I believe that Metal will find its space in the meta but I personally do not see it to necessarily warp the entire meta around it. However Metal decks can be more consistent than often argued and have several points in their favor that should not be overlooked.
Personally I am not that much into Dusk Mane Necrozma paired with Magnezone. I prefer Silvally Metal decks that utilize attack-based acceleration and trainer-based acceleration. The main reason for this is that these decks are less linear and provide more options to adjust their playstyle to the decks they are facing.
Hi, Dark Espeon.
No problem here. I am not offended in any manner and I am a fan of solid discussions. However, keep in mind that I am not a native speaker. Hope I still manage to get my points across reasonably well.
[QUOTE="Otaku, post: 2925703, member 27238]Questioning the empirical evidence leading to a conclusion is one of the major ways to disprove a conclusion; as we are attempting to predict the imminent metagame, I'm not sure how else you could disprove it. Probably something I'm not thinking of, but I digress. Also, you should be doing such a thing in a good discussion!
[/QUOTE]Another means would be to examine whether the conclusions you draw from the arguments provided logically necessarily follow from these arguments. However, asking for evidence in favor of the arguments, or providing counter-evidence that calls the validity of the arguments into question is often an easier path and also comes arcoss more friendly.
We do agree that the assumption that Dusk Mane Necrozma supported by Magnezone takes over the old and new meta could be less valid than assumed. While we previously had a dominance of GX-centered decks this may change with the addition of some 1-prize attacker decks able to achieve ohkos. Garchomp and Empoleon decks have already been mentioned as examples. In addition the range of decks able to ohko has broadened. As one example: Golisopod Lurantis variants become more stable with a small Leafeon line and will therefore be able to hit numbers more consistently.
I am not sold on the argument that Magnezone BKT had solid attackers at its time. If that would have been the case the deck would have performed much better. This is a main difference between the old and new Magnezone that I wanted to point out.
While we agree on several points some of the reasons for doing so differ, and there are also subtile differences in the conclusions we reach. I believe that Metal will find its space in the meta but I personally do not see it to necessarily warp the entire meta around it. However Metal decks can be more consistent than often argued and have several points in their favor that should not be overlooked.
Personally I am not that much into Dusk Mane Necrozma paired with Magnezone. I prefer Silvally Metal decks that utilize attack-based acceleration and trainer-based acceleration. The main reason for this is that these decks are less linear and provide more options to adjust their playstyle to the decks they are facing.
Hi GekkisaiDaiNi,
Thanks for providing this information. The decks listed focus predominately in Pokémon GX - assuming they were the classic builds that can be seen in the deck forum. I would have expected the deck to do well in several of these matches. Did you test against any Garchomp builts that were sufficiently consistent?
Not yet, but I plan on testing against Garchomp and Empoleon soon.
I've played against a few Garchomp/Lucario decks and it can be a tough matchup, but winnable. I haven't kept track but I'd say I'm around 50/50 against them. DM Necrozma only has to worry about getting Magnezone set up while Garchomp (a Stage 2) also needs Lucario (a Stage 1). There's obviously more each deck needs to function but I'm just giving a general overview. Garchomp also needs Cynthia, meaning they're not using N or Guzma against you so you can use that to your advantage. Solgaleo Prism is a great Pokémon in this matchup, being able to OHKO a Garchomp and if your opponent knocks it out then it was a 1 for 1 Prize trade, and it's much easier for you to set up something else on the bench with Magnezone in play than it is for them to set up another Garchomp. If they get two Lucario on the field, however, they pretty much have the game.
Similar to my own experience. That is also the reason Garchomp wants to run Exp. Share on benched Garchomp and have two Lucario out.
I agree, I tend to go for 100 games for a good sample size before I decide anything concrete. Right now it is more reporting that initial testing is going well and that it is a fun deck.10 games isn't a lot when it comes to playtesting. No, that does not automatically invalidate your results. Think of it more as "Alright! Now report back again when you get to 20 wins. 30 wins. Etc."
If anything, the current Standard meta may be a boon to the deck. The current Standard format relying largely upon 2HKO attackers like Zoroark GX and Buzzwole GX will treat Dusk Mane/Magnezone fairly well, but the speed of those 2HKO decks should still win out if they remember to deal with the Magnezone line.
Also, going back the first post, I'd like to see more of what the deck can do (or perhaps can't do) in Expanded.
Also, going back the first post, I'd like to see more of what the deck can do (or perhaps can't do) in Expanded.
Last edited:
Oh yeah, we forgot about Expanded (or at least I did).
Do you guys think that the deck will be better in Expanded??? There are more things that can help the deck, but things like Night march and Vespiquen will wreck it.
I personally think that it will be better in Standard because the only one prize attacker decks that are played are Greninja, Empoleon, and Garchomp, witch DM Necrozma can beat (Except for Greninja).
(or at least I did).Do you guys think that the deck will be better in Expanded??? There are more things that can help the deck, but things like Night march and Vespiquen will wreck it.
I personally think that it will be better in Standard because the only one prize attacker decks that are played are Greninja, Empoleon, and Garchomp, witch DM Necrozma can beat (Except for Greninja).
Oh yeah, we forgot about Expanded
Do you guys think that the deck will be better in Expanded??? There are more things that can help the deck, but things like Night march and Vespiquen will wreck it.
I personally think that it will be better in Standard because the only one prize attacker decks that are played are Greninja, Empoleon, and Garchomp, witch DM Necrozma can beat (Except for Greninja).
The thing about Expanded is that there's already a deck which does the same thing but faster and more consistently (Back to the Archie's Blastoise comparison), but doesn't see much in the way of results.
Couple reasons metal wont be as good as we hope. Fighting being better and faster setup is main reason come may fighting will be nearly every deck at madison in june. Then solgaleo is delayed til ocotober.
But i do think metal be a big showing at st louis along with fighting and water decks
But i do think metal be a big showing at st louis along with fighting and water decks
It turns its type to fire. But no due to steam up nly effects basic fire types. Silvally is a stage 1