Draw Supporter Choices

M

michachu

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I've been playing with Tsuda's and Estrada's decks from the 2014 championships and I noticed that they'd made different choices for their cards-to-get-more-cards. I'm assuming this reflects subtle differences in cards effects, but I'm not sure what those are...

For instance, why not use Shauna (or why choose Colress and N over Shauna)? Does the "each player" effect of N make it more desirable than Colress, or is the "each player" effect undesirable? I've been trying to imagine how you could make having your opponent reshuffle into an offensive tactic...
 
RE: Cards-to-get-more-cards

N is used a lot more than Shauna because giving your opponent a new hand can reset their strategy, possibly giving them undesirable cards. It also can reduce your opponent's hand to about 1-2 cards, later in the game.

Colress is also a better choice than Shauna because it slowly draws you more cards as the game progresses. Early on, it draws only about 3-5, but in the late game, when everyone has set up their Pokemon, it can draw about 7-9, which is much more desirable.
 
RE: Cards-to-get-more-cards

Shauna is sometimes played in 1 copy along Colress as the latter is clearly less effective early game against some archetypes.
 
The only thing about colress is that Turn 1 i rather it be Shauna. Colress for 1-3 cards is just not good. Shauna is at least moderately good every time.
 
Four Juniper / Sycamore and four N is pretty standard for most decks. I've heard a lot of varying opinions on Shauna. Some people say it's good, and some say it's mediocre. I thinka vanilla five cards after a shuffle is on the weak end of the currently legal Supporters, but interestingly, Shauna is never a bad play. There's times when you do not want to give your opponent a hand refresh, or when Colress would give dismal results, such as the early game. In the mid-late game, Colress averages 6-9 cards, which is above Shauna. Still, I often run one of them.

I've also seen a few players run a single copy of Bianca. This was seen in Worlds top four finisher Michikazu Tsuda's Crazy Punch deck. I could never make Bianca work personally, but having it as the last card in your hand and drawing the full six is almost as nice a feeling as doing that with Sycamore. The only problem here is that Bianca serves no use if your hand is full of seven or more cards that you can't play. A jJnuper / Sycamore in this case would let you trash your hand for seven new cards. Still, Biance does have a bit of utility. It's Cheren/Tierno that I think is the least effective draw Supporter. Compared to what the others can do, drawing three cards is... meh for a Supporter. Don't even mention Battle Reporter in front of me.

I'd also like to take a minute to mention Item-based draw. Bicycle is probably the most powerful, as there's no drawback to it. I include at least one in almost every deck I build, since it nets you more than what your Supporter for the turn got, or you can use Skyla / Korrina to pull it out of your deck. Roller Skates is another fun option. The potential for three cards off an Item can put you ahead of the game... if you flip heads that is. However, running four of them will maximize your odds of success, and they really can make a difference if you can squeeze them into your list.
 
Well to be fair i think the worst supporter in terms of draw support is Caitlin. If shes the only card in hand, shes dead weight. I think i would take Battle Reporter over Caitlin. At least it can potentially draw you something if you top deck it with a dead hand.
 
I tend to use Shauna over Colress because, as mentioned, it's never a bad play. It's never great, but a Colress early game sucks, and the early game is when I most want my draw supporters to be powerful. If it helps me set up faster early, I can live with it being a little less powerful later on. I'll use Colress in decks like Empoleon where you're going to get a big bench pretty quickly, but if filling my bench isn't a huge priority (as in my Manectric / Yveltal deck), I don't really care for it.
 
michachu said:
I've been playing with Tsuda's and Estrada's decks from the 2014 championships and I noticed that they'd made different choices for their cards-to-get-more-cards. I'm assuming this reflects subtle differences in cards effects, but I'm not sure what those are...

For instance, why not use Shauna (or why choose Colress and N over Shauna)? Does the "each player" effect of N make it more desirable than Colress, or is the "each player" effect undesirable? I've been trying to imagine how you could make having your opponent reshuffle into an offensive tactic...
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Well I get your point. About that but if you have four prize and your opponent has two he will only Draw four cards. But still well I play four n and four juniper. Shauna is good for early game but I rather colress for later in game but still Shauna is good. Shuto itigaki junior world champion 2012 played proffessor Oaks new theory which is like shauna. Unfortunately oak is not legal anymore which is sad but Shauna is exactly like it just five instead of six cards. So in the end Shauna is still good for any deck. Or at least that's my opinion.
 
As you probably know (or at least "feel"), one's card-draw "engine" may differ quite a bit based upon one's playing style and the deck itself. For example, some players believe that all decks should include 4 N and 4 Professor Juniper as the "core" or base of the engine (I don't subscribe to this principle). From there, one may augment that core with 2-4 other card-drawing Items/Supporters such as Bicycles, Colress, Shauna, etc., as noted above.

From what I've observed and from my own personal experience, there are about 10-12 cards dedicated to support card drawing in most competitive decks. This "rule of thumb" (?) may not hold true if the deck includes Poké (e.g., Empoleon or Delphox) that can also supplement card-drawing. Also, with the re-release of VS Seeker, the core cards and respective counts may change too.

In reviewing each of the main card drawing card options, you will find each has its own positive and negative attributes:

  • Bianca. Positive(s): Supporter that can effectively replenish your hand, after you've depleted it. In decks where you may be using "lots" of Balls or other Items to search and retrieve needed resources, one can deplete one's hand often and quickly. So, Bianca is nice to use to draw more than an "average" (assume 4) number of new cards. Negative(s): May draw less than the average number of cards or not able to draw any cards at all given the inherent hand size restriction. Can not rely upon this Supporter providing consistent card drawing since there are several Item-lock decks that are popular right now (causing you to have large hand sizes).
  • Bicycle. Positive(s): Item that can be played multiple times during same turn Searchable with Skyla and Korrina. Negative(s): May draw less than the average number of cards or not able to draw any cards at all given the inherent hand size restriction. Also, several Item-lock decks are popular now and these would prevent the playing of Bicycle.
  • Cheren. Positive(s): Supporter that provides 3 cards draw from your deck. For decks that allow you to manipulate the deck's card order and place cards at the top, then Cheren (or Tierno) will allow you to draw into that needed resource. Negative(s): You only draw 3 cards - ugh...
  • Colress. Positive(s): Supporter that can potentially allow you to draw LOTS (8+) of cards based upon size of both players' benches. Required shuffling of the player's hand back into his/her deck. Searchable by both Skyla and Shadow Triad. Negative(s): Not that useful early game since players' benches may not be large.
  • N. Positive(s): Supporter that requires both players to shuffle their hands into their decks and draw cards to their respective number of your remaining prizes. Can disrupt opponent's hand (crucial at times). Negative(s): None, IMO.
  • Professor Juniper/Sycamore. Positive(s): Supporter requires the discard of one's entire hand and thereafter draw 7 cards. Quickly and easily facilitates "dumping" of undesirable cards in hand, as well as get needed resources into discard pile that are used for later retrieval (e.g., discarding R energy that can be Blacksmith) or to fuel an attack (e.g., Night March). Negative(s): Could discard valuable resources early game (e.g., multiple Professor Junipers, other non-card draw Supporters, etc. in hand) in order to draw cards to get setup. (However, with VS Seeker and Lysandre's Trump Card, this may be less of a concern.)
  • Roller Skates. Positive(s): Item that can be played multiple times during same turn Can facilitate "speedy" setup. Searchable with Skyla and Korrina. IF you flip heads, then draw 4 cards. Negative(s): 50-50 chance of getting tails yielding NO cards drawn. Also, several Item-lock decks are popular now and these would prevent the playing of Roller skates.
  • Shauna. Supporter that requires the player to shuffle his/hand hand into his/her deck and then draw 5 cards. Negative(s): Slightly better than average card draw support, IMO.
As you build and play-test your decks, I would suggest play-testing different combinations of drawing cards (and counts) till you determine what works best for you and that particular deck.
 
TuxedoBlack said:
[*]N. Positive(s): Supporter that requires both players to shuffle their hands into their decks and draw cards to their respective number of your remaining prizes. Can disrupt opponent's hand (crucial at times). Negative(s): None, IMO.
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No negatives? Not even when your N'd to one? Not even when you have less then 3 prizes and your opponent only has one? Not even when your hand is just N and Juniper (9/10 times I will use juniper over N).
Just like Shauna, N is somewhat situational. Its very good early and very late game if your losing. Its just meh for the middle because Colress and Juniper will be more useful with a bigger deck size and all.
 
Elbow said:
TuxedoBlack said:
[*]N. Positive(s): Supporter that requires both players to shuffle their hands into their decks and draw cards to their respective number of your remaining prizes. Can disrupt opponent's hand (crucial at times). Negative(s): None, IMO.
Click to expand...

No negatives? Not even when your N'd to one? Not even when you have less then 3 prizes and your opponent only has one? Not even when your hand is just N and Juniper (9/10 times I will use juniper over N).
Just like Shauna, N is somewhat situational. Its very good early and very late game if your losing. Its just meh for the middle because Colress and Juniper will be more useful with a bigger deck size and all.
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Without a doubt, N is a 2-edged sword: it can be a tremendous help against an opponent, and my opponent can also use it effectively against me too at times during a game. I've just always liked those Supporters/Items that can disrupt my opponent's hand - which I tend to do a lot. And from my playing the card perspective, I have no "negatives" in playing 4 copies in all my decks, as well as playing it - again, my perspective.

All the card-draw Supporters can be tagged as "situational" too. Given the game state and current board position, one would most likely choose to play 1 Supporter over another if given the opportunity.
 
A kid at my league used Battle Reporter for 9 cards and it was the funniest thing ever, so I wouldn't write it off as an absolute piece of junk just yet. Cheren/Tierno are the worst draw supporters to me. Before I got a little higher in the PTGCO ranks, I didn't lose a single battle because everyone I faced played Cheren. Seriously, the game even gives you 4 N and 4 Juniper from the trainer challenge. Caitlin is a shred better because it has more potential, which is mostly what you look for in a draw supporter.

As of right now, I run this engine for most decks: 10 Draw Supporters or 9 Draw Supporters and 2-3 Korrina/Skyla, 2 Bicycle, 2 VS Seeker, 1 JirachiEX, 4 Ultra Ball.

The supporters are usually 4 N, 3-4 Professor Juniper, 1 Colress, 1 Shauna. Jirachi helps out a load as long as you don't start with it on your girst turn (which can be easily avoided most of the time by playing 10 other basic Pokemon) because it gives you 5 more cards which can access a supporter (the Jirachi + 4 Ultra Balls). Shauna and Colress are good but only during certain times, so you should't play more than 2 of either unless the deck calls for it. N is arguably the best because players are often forced to discard valuable things when using Juniper, but that could change because VS Seeker offers a little more control over what Supporter you can get.
 
Come to think of it... no one's mentioned Ghetsis yet. This is a very situational card, but played in the right deck, at the right time, can have some pretty cool results. I wouldn't run any more than one, but with Battle Compressor and VS Seeker, one-of supporters have becomre much more viable. It could be useful in Seismitoad/ Garbodor, just as it was occasionally played with Trevenant / Gothitelle. Unfortunately, this card is even more situational than Colress, as there's no telling what your opponent has in his or her hand. However, if they have been item locked for several turns and have accumulated a large hand, Ghetsis can be pretty powerful. You'll draw a fair number of cards, and all those Items that your opponent couldn't play will go back into their deck, clogging it up when they're probably trying to thin it out and get to cards they can play.
 
My Little Keldeo said:
Come to think of it... no one's mentioned Ghetsis yet.
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The promotional Mew in Blister Packs from LTR actually pairs pretty well with Ghetsis. Hand Scope might also be a good option!
 
Hand Scope is NEVER a good option as it takes a slot in your deck, for a 99% of the times useless effect.
 
GadgetJax said:
My Little Keldeo said:
Come to think of it... no one's mentioned Ghetsis yet.
Click to expand...

The promotional Mew in Blister Packs from LTR actually pairs pretty well with Ghetsis. Hand Scope might also be a good option!
Click to expand...

In all honesty, Ghetsis is only good if you force items to remain on hand with Trevenant or Seismitoad EX. Even then, you're giving them an avenue out by making them shuffle it back into their deck. So it's not really worth it over all since you're probably drawing at most 4 cards, potentially more in a late game scenario.
 
Ivy_Profen said:
Well to be fair i think the worst supporter in terms of draw support is Caitlin. If shes the only card in hand, shes dead weight. I think i would take Battle Reporter over Caitlin. At least it can potentially draw you something if you top deck it with a dead hand.
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For me though i like using Caitlin, especially in fossil decks. She puts everything on the bottom, so when you inevitably top deck your fossil pokemon you can at least put them where they need to be.
 
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