Empoleon/Terrakion's viability Pre and Post Rotation

[Puff-Sun]

I can also see problems for this deck when facing Tornadus Donk. Tornadus donk usually keeps a low bench, and can easily KO anything in the deck but Terrakion T1. Terrakion requires a little more work, but it is certainly doable with good enough draws. If they only keep a bench of 1 or 2, which is normal, it should be a pretty easy win for the Tornadus player. This deck would work so much better if you could find some mechanism for taking out Tornadus EX. One thing i ran across recently was the use of Zekrom as a tech to get rid of Tornadus. neither Tornadus can OHKO you, and if they go for the 2HKO they die from Outrage.

 

[Rikko145]

60 T1 is enough to kill off a Piplup, and a PlusPower kills off a Phanpy.

Taking a prize T1 isn't so hard, and unless you can evolve every attacker a T2 prize is pretty simple as well.

4 Dark Patch, 3-4 Ultra Ball, 4 Junk Arm, 3-4 Juniper, 9-11 Basic Dark Energy, and 3-4 Smeargle (as well as 2-4 Skyarrow Bridge and 2-4 Switch) actually make a T1 Darkrai certainly possible, and that means a kill T1 as well as 30 to the bench for a later OHKO on an Empoleon.

Remember, a low bench makes Empoleon a pretty weak attacker. A Darkrai/Tornadus player also has the option to not even play Darkrai down, and stream Tornadus until a good number of Phanpy and Donphan are dead.

Then I suppose I would flood my field with Empoleons to make sure I'm doing at least 90 (6 pokemon on my field and the Tornadus better have at least 1 thing on the bench). Even if Tornadus EX has an eviolite and only 1 benched pokemon, I still only need 1 PP to 2HKO it.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

6 Pokemon on your side + 2 on Tornadus equals 80 damage, resulting in a 3HKO, 2 with a PlusPower. Witth Eviolite it would be a certain 3HKO.

Meanwhile, Tornadus starts killing things T1, and 2HKOs Empoleons/Donphans.

 

[MrGatr]

If you're talking about Tornadus EX, what are the chances of a stadium being in play for him to do a T1 damage enough to matter?? Close to none. You're forgetting Terrakion, Tornadus may resist it, but it still can 2HKO it with pluspower, and Tornadus only does 100 to it, aiding the help of retaliate.

I've battled CMT v. Empoleon/Terrakion, and Empoleon wins, just by using catcher. Tornadus isn't a problem for the deck, and if it is, tec in some prisms, and maybe a Zekrom, and OHKO it.

 

[Celebi23]

If you're talking about Tornadus EX, what are the chances of a stadium being in play for him to do a T1 damage enough to matter?? Close to none. You're forgetting Terrakion, Tornadus may resist it, but it still can 2HKO it with pluspower, and Tornadus only does 100 to it, aiding the help of retaliate.

...

The chances of getting a Stadium in play are close to none? Just play a decent number of Stadiums. You're supposed to build the deck around getting DCE + Tornadus-EX + Stadium T1. You'd be surprised at how quickly Portrait lets you burn through your deck.

Also, 70+70+10=150, not 170. If you mean with 3 PlusPower, it's much easier for Tornadus-EX to get an Eviolite on it than it is for you to get 3 PlusPower.

 

[MrGatr]

When I say Pluspower, I'm meaning it like you don't say "Deers" you just say deer. And with most of the decks I've seen, Smeargle just gets you some supper crappy supporters, Collector, N, or Juniper. I've kinda quit running PONT because of that.

Also, no one builds a deck around that, as far as I can see.

 

[Infinity]

When I say Pluspower, I'm meaning it like you don't say "Deers" you just say deer. And with most of the decks I've seen, Smeargle just gets you some supper crappy supporters, Collector, N, or Juniper. I've kinda quit running PONT because of that.

Also, no one builds a deck around that, as far as I can see.

No PONT?!??!?!?
NO PONT?!?!?!

*heart attack

 

[MrGatr]

I never need it... Bianca works just the same, I burn through hands quickly with the way I've been playing it.

 

[Machamp The Champion]

I can also see problems for this deck when facing Tornadus Donk. Tornadus donk usually keeps a low bench, and can easily KO anything in the deck but Terrakion T1. Terrakion requires a little more work, but it is certainly doable with good enough draws. If they only keep a bench of 1 or 2, which is normal, it should be a pretty easy win for the Tornadus player. This deck would work so much better if you could find some mechanism for taking out Tornadus EX. One thing i ran across recently was the use of Zekrom as a tech to get rid of Tornadus. neither Tornadus can OHKO you, and if they go for the 2HKO they die from Outrage.

Tornadus Donk has a low bench? They should have 1-2 Aerodactyl out and at least 1 or 2 more Tornadus on there bench (Unless you're thinking of a different version of Tornadus Donk then I am). And Tornadus EX could OHKO a Zekrom if it used Bolt Strike last turn.


Anyway. I don't know about Empoleon/Donphan, But Empoleon/Terrakion is pretty deadly. If you're using Zeels (which is the only match up I've been in). You either have to get allot of PlusPowers + Zekroms KOs, use Tornadus (EX or not), Catcher there Empoleons/Piplups, or catch them without enough energy to attack. And this is assuming you have a good set up. Otherwise, you're going to lose the prize race.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

You're forgetting Terrakion, Tornadus may resist it, but it still can 2HKO it with pluspower, and Tornadus only does 100 to it, aiding the help of retaliate.

1. Smeargle searches through your deck quickly. With 3 Skyarrow Bridge and 2-4 Switch, a T1 60 with Tornadus is really easy

2. Empoleon/Terrakion does have a better matchup against Darkrai/Tornadus, but rikko here is running Donphan/Empoleon. I told him in another thread that Terrakion is a much better partner, but he didn't listen.

 

[dmaster]

Also, no one builds a deck around that, as far as I can see.

Every deck that I've seen utilize 2+ Tornadus EX has the _extremely_ high capability to get the T1 60 with Tornadus EX. I'm talking about decks that have Smeargle and are capable of putting in Stadiums which includes Zeel, CMT (which is actually still a deck), and quite a few Darkrai versions where Tornadus is a key attacker. While they not be built to do that every game, it is very scary going second against any of those decks. Take it from me who has seen it in a Battle Road.

dmaster out.

 

[Emopanda133]

Donphan 9HKOs Tornadus EX w/ Eviolite, 5HKOs Tornadus with Ruins of Alph.

Someone who knows how to use Donphan right can 2HKO Tornadus EX all day long. At battle roads I played two Darkrai/Tornadus Decks, one getting T1 Tornadus and I beat them both with Donphan/Mewtwo/Rocky Helmet, and I never used the Mewtwo's in either match.

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Anything besides Eel variants usually don't have more than three bench plus active.

 

[Celebi23]

When I say Pluspower, I'm meaning it like you don't say "Deers" you just say deer. And with most of the decks I've seen, Smeargle just gets you some supper crappy supporters, Collector, N, or Juniper. I've kinda quit running PONT because of that.

Also, no one builds a deck around that, as far as I can see.

Man, if we could warn people for saying stupid stuff...

I know what you mean about PlusPower. I was saying that it's not likely to hit 3 PlusPower in one and have them not hit 1 Eviolite over the course of two turns, especially since you're arguing in the same post it's unlikely to hit a Stadium T1!

Smeargle is the BCIF right now. It lets players burn through their decks a minimum of 2x faster than they normally could, improves the chance of setting up quickly and hitting necessary resources late-game, and gets a player out of a dead hand.

And if you don't run PONT, you're putting yourself in an even worse situation than you're putting your opponent in! You can't ever use PONT (which you yourself just admitted is an amazing supporter), but your opponent can still use their own.

If by "nobody", you mean half the players who have won a Battle Road with Tornadus-EX, I completely agree with you. :/

 

[Rikko145]

I guess the bottom line behind these Empoleon/Fighting decks is take a prize every turn. No matter what happens, make sure to get a OHKO on some cheap prize, or make absolutely sure you can 2HKO an EX.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

Someone who knows how to use Donphan right can 2HKO Tornadus EX all day long. At battle roads I played two Darkrai/Tornadus Decks, one getting T1 Tornadus and I beat them both with Donphan/Mewtwo/Rocky Helmet, and I never used the Mewtwo's in either match.

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So, you had Ruins of Alph in play, Tornadus didn't have any Eviolites, and you hit a PlusPower? That seems kind of abnormal, unless you went a different way about it.

Anyways, my argument was for Empoleon/Donphan, who doesn't have the space for Rocky Helmet. Both Donphan/Mewtwo and Empoleon/Terrakion have a better matchup against Darkrai/Torndaus than Empoleon/Donphan does.

 

[Emopanda133]

So, you had Ruins of Alph in play, Tornadus didn't have any Eviolites, and you hit a PlusPower? That seems kind of abnormal, unless you went a different way about it.

Anyways, my argument was for Empoleon/Donphan, who doesn't have the space for Rocky Helmet. Both Donphan/Mewtwo and Empoleon/Terrakion have a better matchup against Darkrai/Torndaus than Empoleon/Donphan does.

In the first game, he opened with Smeargle and Darkrai (attaches one energy), his turn two he uses Dual ball for two Tornadus EX's (junk arm'd two Dark energy and used Dark Patch on Darkrai), first KO was turn two, me KOing the Smeargle with Eartquake. He pulls up the Tornadus EX with no Eviolite and attaches a DCE to it, plays Shaymin to get the Dark Energy (one one each Tornadus) from Darkrai, hits for 80, but has to discard, drops the Dark Energy, takes 20 from Rocky Helmet. I Top Deck Ruins of Alph, play it, N'd, and hit a Max Potion, healed, attached another Energy and Earthquaked (Tornadus at 80), He attaches a Eviolite to benched Tornadus and attaches a Dark to the active, attacks, I attach to bench (bench has two energy now) and earthquake, it had 10 damage left, he KO'd my Active Donphan and KO's himself. The second one took a bit quicker. I hit for 70, he hit for 80 (Tornadus EX at 100 damage on it), I Junk Armed for a Plus Power, hit for 80. From there he Patched Darkrai and KO'd me. I throw up my third and last Donphan (prized Phanpy stopped #4). I Eathqauke, he hits for 100 (special dark and claw) I max potion, attach and Earthqauke again.

Game two went about the same, but was just, horrible. The first Tornadus EX didn't hit for 80 like the other guy, but instead hit for 40 with my T1 Ruins (thought it was great, turned out not to be), I hit for 60, he attaches and KO's me, I return KO'd with benched (three energy). He Catchers up my other bench (No Energy) plays Dark Patch onto Darkrai, attaches DCE to Tornadus with an Eviolite, plays Energy Switch (haven't seen that card in a long time) and hits for 80. I attached (No Switch in hand.>.<) an energy to active, hit for 40 (Tornadus EX stays at 40, no Rocky Helmet on my Donphan) He KO's me, I come back and hit for 70. He hits for 80, I KO him, he KO's me with Darkrai...I ended up with a fresh Donphan with three energy, use your imagination.

As far as Empoleon/Fighting goes, I think you're right, stick with Terrakion.

 

[Red Striker]

*sigh* Groudon EX=solution to Darkrai EX/Tornadus EX. Nuff said. So they might use Tornadus EX. If that's the case, Catcher up something else, spread ten damage to everything, then proceed to finish off Tornadus.

 

[Puff-Sun]

How in the world does Groudon get rid of Tornadus? Tornadus is Groudon's worst nightmare. Tromp can't touch it as long as it stays active, and you can't even 2HKO with Giant Claw!

Tornadus Donk only has a bench of 1-3, in my experience. 1 Aerodactyl, 1 Celebi, 1 Tornadus on the bench at maximum.

 

[Emopanda133]

Actually, red striker brings up a good point, has anyone tried Groudon/Tornadus? I saw it at battle roads and I think he went 4-1, but missed top cut.

 

[Red Striker]

Well, I never said anything about putting Groudon with Tornadus, but it does make for an interesting idea.

As for the solution for the problem with Tornadus/Darkrai... Guess we'll have to wait till the August set.