Can't say my version of Empoleon-Dusknoir is "better" than any other variant, but it works well. This particular variant also forces my opponent to take 6 prizes too and gets around Mr. Mime's bench protection too.Brave Vesperia said:
Empoleon Variants
- Thread starter Blah
- Start date
Surprised nobody's mentioned Leafeon yet... Alongside Bangle it's a great secondary attacker, and deals with the main threat, Keldeo EX.
The player who has won the last 2 League Challenges ran an Empoleon deck with Dusknoir and Leafeon.
TuxedoBlack said:
I actually saw that deck at the Cities I judged today. What is the purpose at Leafeon? I didn't get to watch enough of the game to know.
The purpose of Leafeon is to counter Blastoise with Energy Crush since Blastoise can Deluge Water energies onto itself or Keldeo EX which is also x2 weak to Grass. Black Kyurem EX for Black Ballista is also played in that deck which could be countered by Leafeon's Energy Crush even though it's x2 weak to Dragon.
Another important point to note is that when running Empoleon-Dusknoir, the Leafeon may not be used to KO/counter opponent's Pokémon (few/no Blastoise or Keldeo EX decks were played at those League Challenge tournaments) as much as to pose a "threat" to opponent's Pokémon and induce the opponent to "limit" his/her energy attachment - which, in fact, does happen at times (lol). In addition, it is great just to use to get damage into play (that damage is used later to KO major threats). Of course, Leafeon is a threat to G-weak Poké, but opponents don't necessarily or willingly promote those to the active poistion.Brave Vesperia said:
I've been testing Empoleon/Duksnoir a lot these past few days and was wondering if the version with Keldeo/Float Stone is better or if the version with Leafeon is better. I've used the version with Keldeo/Float Stone more, so I may be a little biased when I say that I like it better. Opinions?
I personally do not want to play any Keldeo EX in my Empoleon deck, primarily due to the fact that it is an easy 1HKO for the players running VirGen decks (quite a few here in the area).
Been testing alot of empoleon/dusknoir myself, I don't even see a point in playing switch in the deck myself, I play in 1 escape rope, but hardly use it, it's good for here and there plays but not realy overall.
As for the question on leafeon, I find leafeon is a really good card to play, it pressures decks to play less energy overall and it plays for the matchup in some/most cases empoleon cannot fight by itself, plus having an additional stage pokemon that deals heavy dmg off of 1 energy helps the deck thrive by taking less dmg overall by mewtwo and the mirror.
As for the question on leafeon, I find leafeon is a really good card to play, it pressures decks to play less energy overall and it plays for the matchup in some/most cases empoleon cannot fight by itself, plus having an additional stage pokemon that deals heavy dmg off of 1 energy helps the deck thrive by taking less dmg overall by mewtwo and the mirror.
Thinking about rebuilding Empoleon, seems like it has a lot better shot now with Catcher's nerf and it was one of my favorite decks last season. Does the new Empoleon out of Legendary Treasures have any room as a one-of? Seems decent that it can potentially do 130 damage if your opponent is limiting their bench, but 3 energy hurts without acceleration and with a low energy count. Was also thinking about the original Kyurem, something else to abuse with Dusknoir, but the 3 energy thing is there again, and having two attackers depending on your opponents bench seems risky.
Actually now that I'm typing it out it seems that I've talked myself out of both ideas, but wouldn't mind getting other people's ideas anyway.
Actually now that I'm typing it out it seems that I've talked myself out of both ideas, but wouldn't mind getting other people's ideas anyway.
I've been checking into how Empoleon/Dusknoir does Post - XY and I see Raichu being a big problem for it since all it needs is a DCE and a full bench for Circle Circuit to deal 200 damage to Empoleon let alone donking Lugia EX and Yveltal EX easily. Landorus EX used to be a good tech for Empoleon/Dusknoir but with Shadow Circle in XY to boost Darkrai variants unless you counter stadium with Virbank or Tropical Beach then it will do nothing to it and Darkrai is fast enough as it is while minimizing Empoleon's damage output in the process. As for the idea of original Kyurem in Empoleon/Dusknoir I wouldn't recommend it due to the odds of your opponent having Mr. Mime on their bench and since Catcher got "errated" to a coin flip that decreases your odds of taking it out in one hit unless you tech in Genesect EX and Plasma Energy for Red Signal.
I've actually been thinking of running a 2-2 Leafeon/Flareon line in my build with 1 Leafeon and 1 Flareon for against VirGen although I don't think Vengeance has enough damage output in that kind of deck to take out Virizion or Genesect unless you're really behind on prizes and you haven't shuffled any Pokemon into your deck with Super Rod. I do think Shauna is a godsend for Empoleon/Dusknoir cause even though you draw 1 less card compared to PONT you don't run the risk of discarding valuable resources like you would with Juniper as you have a chance to get them back with Shauna by shuffling them back into your deck. Professor's Letter could help Empoleon get water energies out faster better than Energy Search but I'm not sure If it's needed for the deck and there's no point for Empoleon to run LaserBank since it's 2nd hardest matchup being VirGen isn't affected by it.
I've actually been thinking of running a 2-2 Leafeon/Flareon line in my build with 1 Leafeon and 1 Flareon for against VirGen although I don't think Vengeance has enough damage output in that kind of deck to take out Virizion or Genesect unless you're really behind on prizes and you haven't shuffled any Pokemon into your deck with Super Rod. I do think Shauna is a godsend for Empoleon/Dusknoir cause even though you draw 1 less card compared to PONT you don't run the risk of discarding valuable resources like you would with Juniper as you have a chance to get them back with Shauna by shuffling them back into your deck. Professor's Letter could help Empoleon get water energies out faster better than Energy Search but I'm not sure If it's needed for the deck and there's no point for Empoleon to run LaserBank since it's 2nd hardest matchup being VirGen isn't affected by it.
Not only does Raichu beat it, but the real reason it's unplayable is because Yeti and VirGen destroy it. One or even two Flareon will do nothing to VirGen, as like you said it usually doesn't get enough damage. Also it takes two turns of energy attachments in that deck and will get Red Signal'd and KO'd. Also Trevenant hurts this deck a ton. Silver Mirrors can help against Plasma but you need 3-4 to really make a difference and it doesn't have that much space.
I don't think Trevenant lives up to the hype it's been getting since it has to be Active to use Forest's Curse and it gets donked by Darkrai easily due to it's weakness to Dark. You could pair it up with Garbodor but it won't do you any good since Garbotoxin also shuts down Forest's Curse unless you use Tool Scrapper on Garbodor to get out of the lock otherwise you're still better off with Gothitelle/Accelgor (GothLock) for Item Lock although Red Card makes the deck even more annoying let alone Team Flare Grunt denying your opponent's Active from retreating unless they have Float Stone attached since Magic Room shuts them down from playing Switch. One of my friends was playtesting Palkia EX with Gothitelle although it's not as consistent without LaserBank and Accelgor.
Empoleon/Dusknoir does have trouble against VirGen but If you get Dusknoir setup for Sinister Hand before they have a chance to Red Signal Duskull then you should do fine against it. Since VirGen has lots of energy accel using Emerald Slash and Scramble Switch that should be enough for Leafeon to take advantage of using Energy Crush to spread damage around for Dusknoir to utilize Sinister Hand with. Landorus EX or Terrakion (Noble Victories/Boundaries Crossed) will probably be mandatory for Empoleon to get around Raichu If it becomes popular as a metagame deck depending If Darkrai sticks with Virbank and Frozen City as their Stadiums of choice over Shadow Circle. As with running Flareon in Empoleon/Dusknoir the better alternative would've been Benchtini from Noble Victories but considering that it hasn't gotten reprinted as a Secret Rare means that we're stuck with what we have available in the format's card pool.
Empoleon/Dusknoir does have trouble against VirGen but If you get Dusknoir setup for Sinister Hand before they have a chance to Red Signal Duskull then you should do fine against it. Since VirGen has lots of energy accel using Emerald Slash and Scramble Switch that should be enough for Leafeon to take advantage of using Energy Crush to spread damage around for Dusknoir to utilize Sinister Hand with. Landorus EX or Terrakion (Noble Victories/Boundaries Crossed) will probably be mandatory for Empoleon to get around Raichu If it becomes popular as a metagame deck depending If Darkrai sticks with Virbank and Frozen City as their Stadiums of choice over Shadow Circle. As with running Flareon in Empoleon/Dusknoir the better alternative would've been Benchtini from Noble Victories but considering that it hasn't gotten reprinted as a Secret Rare means that we're stuck with what we have available in the format's card pool.
Nearly done building Empoleon/Dusknoir. I've been running one Sawk PLB, which is by far the best counter this deck has to its worst matchup, Plasma, specifically Thundurus. For one energy and a Silver Bangle, Sawk does 160 to an active Thundurus. I used to think that this was unfortunate, being only 10 HP under a knockout, but the more I play Empoleon, the more I realize that this deck does not want knockouts, but rather spreading damage around the board for Dusknoir to move around late to take out your biggest obstacles in a game.
I take it Sawk PLB is better in Empoleon/Dusknoir than Dugtrio XY since the deck only has space for 1 Stage 1 line being Leafeon? Makes sense although Sawk has a terrible weakness compared to Dugtrio. Empoleon doesn't want knock outs which is why Max Potion is arguably a staple in the deck although it'd be nice If it wasn't a $10-15 Uncommon like Catcher was pre-errata. Still it's better than having to pay $150-200+ a piece to run 1-2 Tropical Beach in Empoleon/Dusknoir just to compete well at Regionals and other premier events.
Way better. Max Potion is usually a 2-of, and with Dowsing you have the option for a third. This deck is seriously perfect without Beach, you don't need that much draw power.
I beg to differ, the main reason why Empoleon/Dusknoir runs Tropical Beach is to rely less on draw supporters and work as an alternative strategy against Garbodor locking down Diving Draw with Garbotoxin. By relying less on running too many draw supporters with 1-2 Beach and 4 Skyla you'll have room to run stuff like Lysandre which can help ease this deck's matchup against any meta deck running Garbodor such as Darkrai/Yveltal and VirGen which is still playable because it can G-Booster Pyroar unless they pair Pyroar with Archeops to lock Items. But you're probably thinking why run Lysandre in Empoleon/Dusknoir when you can Sinister Hand for prizes? Well what If you can't because of Garbodor, that's where Lysandre comes in.
If Empoleon/Dusknoir can't handle Garbodor when playing against Darkrai/Yveltal then it deserves no place in the current meta. Even Shiftry/Milotic needs Beach for draw consistency in order to keep up with the meta, not just Empoleon/Dusknoir. Butterfree sets up much faster than other
Stage 2's with Rare Candy in the format thanks to it's ability Adaptive Evolution although Trubbish + Evosoda + Garbodor + Float Stone is a thing unfortunately. So despite all the support Stage 2's have been getting in Flashfire they're still hurting right now against Basics and it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon, most Stage 2's cap to 140 HP which is enough for any Basic to one shot with Hypnotoxic Laser, Muscle Band, and Virbank especially with the amount of damage output Yveltal EX and Mewtwo EX are still capable of.
If Empoleon/Dusknoir can't handle Garbodor when playing against Darkrai/Yveltal then it deserves no place in the current meta. Even Shiftry/Milotic needs Beach for draw consistency in order to keep up with the meta, not just Empoleon/Dusknoir. Butterfree sets up much faster than other
Stage 2's with Rare Candy in the format thanks to it's ability Adaptive Evolution although Trubbish + Evosoda + Garbodor + Float Stone is a thing unfortunately. So despite all the support Stage 2's have been getting in Flashfire they're still hurting right now against Basics and it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon, most Stage 2's cap to 140 HP which is enough for any Basic to one shot with Hypnotoxic Laser, Muscle Band, and Virbank especially with the amount of damage output Yveltal EX and Mewtwo EX are still capable of.