Fire Engine Improvements

TuxedoBlack

TuxedoBlack

Old School Player
Member
In building a Charizard EX (Wing Attack) deck recently (in preparation for an upcoming League Challenge), I was quite interested in incorporating any form of energy attachment acceleration (EAA) afforded by the Blacksmith-Fiery Torch combo while still having strong, consistent card draw (CD) support. After lots of playtesting and trying different mixes of Trainers, I found that:

  • The 2 cards drawn via Fiery Torch was typically insufficient. plus, there is only a finite number of times when you can play this Item which didn't seem to enhance deck operations.
  • Playing a "heavy" Blacksmith count (i.e., 4) seems to work more "efficiently" when I utilized a non-Supporter card draw engine like Bicycle or Electrode.
  • However, there were a number of times when I had to postpone playing a Blacksmith in favor of playing a needed N to disrupt my opponent's hand. So, I missed that opportunity of getting the 2 extra energy attached that particular turn (with careful "planning," game impact can be risky at times).
  • Having a "low" HP, benched Electrode has been problematic at times too - easy Catcher/Lysandre KO target.
My current list (I run no Electrode lines) of Blacksmith and card-draw Trainers consist of the following:

  • 3 Bicycle
    2 Blacksmith
    2 Colress
    4 N
    3 Professor Juniper
Although I ended with a 3-1-1 record at a recent League Challenge, I still feel the CD and EAA engines can be enhanced/refined even more. Any comments/ideas regarding your building and running the deck experience with Blacksmith (with/without Fiery Torch)? Thanks.
 
In my Charizard deck I run:

  • 4 Juniper
    4 Blacksmith
    1 N
    1 Lysandre
    4 Roller Skates
    3 Bicycle
    4 Fiery Torch
    1 Jirachi EX
 
Delphox is good. It gives you some non supporter draw and an attacker, well worth being a stage 2. I think you could make a decent deck with Delphox as the main attacker (and Charizard or Reshiram for backup).

The deck I ran is based off of Pooka's he used in one of his videos.

4 Charizard EX (150)
2 M Charizard EX (fire)
1 Celebi EX (this and M Charizard is good against Pyroar).
2 Keldeo EX (Rush In)
1 Druddigon (Revenge)
1 Reshiram (Blue Flare)
1 Jirachi EX

4 Blacksmith
4 Feiry Torch
4 Juniper
1 N
1 Lysandre
3 Bicycle
4 Roller Skates
4 Professors Letter
4 Ultra Ball
1 Computer Search
3 Float Stone (Switching)
3 Muscle Band

8 Fire Energy
4 DCE

I only played it twice, but it works pretty well.
 
To be honest, I hate Fiery Torch. Bicycle is much better. You have to use 2 cards to get 2 more, which isn't a great tradeoff. Also I feel that 3 blacksmith is the best, 4 gets too clunky and you'll never get a good hand. Also @tuxedoblack what is your ace spec?
 
I feel like the minority here, which I really didn't expect. My Fire Engine (by the way, hilarious pun right there) line is:

  • 4 Juniper
  • 4 N
  • 4 Fiery Torch
  • 4 Bicycle
  • 1-1 Electrode
  • 1 Jirachi EX (4 Ultra Ball)
  • 1 Computer Search

Fiery Torch is good early on for discarding Fire Energy, and decent late game for deck-thinning and getting the last couple cards you need. I like the 4 Blacksmith, just for consistency. I wouldn't mind going down to 3, though, as I do feel like it can clog my hand sometimes. But it is a really precious resource early and late game, so getting unlucky having to discard them early on would cost this deck the game, most likely. I also kind of want to play another Jirachi in this deck, so I can still consistently get Blacksmiths/Lysandres after I've played my first Jirachi.

I'm honestly considering cutting most of the Junipers for something like Cheren, or Bianca. This may seem weird, but I feel like a lot of the time, I don't want to play Juniper because I'm holding onto a Blacksmith, or a Lysandre, or a DCE, which I want to keep for later on, but I really need to draw cards to get something else that I need. With Cheren or Bianca, I can draw cards, while still keeping important resources I have in my hand for next turn. This is especially important for Blacksmith and Lysandre, since you can't use another supporter to get them when you need them. Also playing Musharna over Electrode would be good if that's what I'm trying to go for with this deck. Again, I'm considering this, and haven't actually tested it, so it may actually turn out to be awful.
 
I like the idea of bianca and/or shauna over juniper definitely, but keep the N.
 
Camoclone said:
In my Charizard deck I run:

  • 4 Juniper
    4 Blacksmith
    1 N
    1 Lysandre
    4 Roller Skates
    3 Bicycle
    4 Fiery Torch
    1 Jirachi EX
Click to expand...
Early on, I did try running the deck with 4 Roller Skates (along with 3 PJs and 4 Ns), but my coin flipping experience (over 5 games) yielded heads less than 50%. So. I replaced them with Bicycle which worked much better. Have not tried including both Bicycle and Roller Skates - seems interesting.

Elbow said:
Also I feel that 3 blacksmith is the best, 4 gets too clunky and you'll never get a good hand. Also @tuxedoblack what is your ace spec?
Click to expand...
I agree that 3 Blacksmiths seem to be optimal for me too. I tend to usually recycle 1 back into my deck when I play Pal Pad (great, great card).

Scramble Switch is my current Ace Spec (largely due to Pal Pad which I run too).

Machamp The Champion said:
  • 4 Juniper
  • 4 N
  • 4 Fiery Torch
  • 4 Bicycle
  • 1-1 Electrode
  • 1 Jirachi EX (4 Ultra Ball)
  • 1 Computer Search
Fiery Torch is good early on for discarding Fire Energy, and decent late game for deck-thinning and getting the last couple cards you need. I like the 4 Blacksmith, just for consistency.
Click to expand...
I initially started with a "standard" card-draw engine mix of Ns and Professor Junipers, but found that incorporating them with heavy counts of Fiery Torches and Blacksmiths didn't work well for me. I needed more non-Supporter based card draw in order not to conflict when I needed to play a Blacksmith.

You've listed quite a bit (16) of card-draw support, plus Electrode... too much perhaps?

Machamp The Champion said:
I'm honestly considering cutting most of the Junipers for something like Cheren, or Bianca. This may seem weird, but I feel like a lot of the time, I don't want to play Juniper because I'm holding onto a Blacksmith, or a Lysandre, or a DCE, which I want to keep for later on, but I really need to draw cards to get something else that I need.
Click to expand...
IMHO, Pal Pad is a fantastic complement to Professor Juniper (PJ), especially when you need to dump your Supporter-rich hands in order to play a PJ. Pal Pads (staple in my decks) helps me recover and recycle needed Supporters.
 
TuxedoBlack said:
You've listed quite a bit (16) of card-draw support, plus Electrode... too much perhaps?
Click to expand...

I don't really consider Item draw cards full draw cards. If you're just drawing 2-3 cards with each one, you're not all that likely to hit something you need off of them, so you would need more draw cards to compensate for that. With Electrode and Jirachi, I might be able to cut a few draw cards, though. I'll try it sometime.
 
I personally run Delphox over Electrode. Delphox is SO good once you get it set up. Also if you are running fiery torch mainly because it discards fire energy which you later retrieve with Blacksmith, ditch Fiery Torch altogether, and just use Ultra Ball to discard those energy.
 
Fiery Torch in my opinion is the much better over bicycle, you can use it more than once in a turn, it is almost always easily used, and can set up Charizard for a turn 1 wing attack. It keeps your deck consistent.
 
I also think that Ultra Ball is a better discard outlet for your Fire Energies. Since you run a low count on Pokémon, it seems like being able to fetch whichever one you need would be better than drawing two random cards. My only concern with the Fire Engine is, do you ever have problems getting Fire Energy in hand to pitch for Blacksmith?
 
Has anyone been successful with a Speed Charizard list? Maybe one that involves Pyroar? I just went to a pre-nats tournament with a Charizard/Garbodor build that only lost to TDK (Plasma). I figure the only way to maybe beat that would be a speed version.

My fire engine/supporters for Charizard/Garbodor includes:
4 Blacksmith
4 Juniper
2 N
2 Lysandre
1 Pal Pad
4 Bicycle
4 Fiery Torch
1 Random Receiver

I like fiery torch a lot and if I find it to not be useful, then I don't have to worry about discarding it when I am playing ultra ball, dowsing, or juniper if need be. I like machamp's idea of dropping the juniper line and trying out cheren or bianca. Have you tested that? I'm curious.

For the speed Charizard, I have been thinking about doing a build with 2-2 electrode line or maybe even delphox. Jirachi ex also seems like a nice addition, but I want to see if anyone has been having any success with the speed version of the deck?
 
spartanzdude3 said:
Has anyone been successful with a Speed Charizard list? Maybe one that involves Pyroar? I just went to a pre-nats tournament with a Charizard/Garbodor build that only lost to TDK (Plasma). I figure the only way to maybe beat that would be a speed version.

My fire engine/supporters for Charizard/Garbodor includes:
4 Blacksmith
4 Juniper
2 N
2 Lysandre
1 Pal Pad
4 Bicycle
4 Fiery Torch
1 Random Receiver

I like fiery torch a lot and if I find it to not be useful, then I don't have to worry about discarding it when I am playing ultra ball, dowsing, or juniper if need be. I like machamp's idea of dropping the juniper line and trying out cheren or bianca. Have you tested that? I'm curious.

For the speed Charizard, I have been thinking about doing a build with 2-2 electrode line or maybe even delphox. Jirachi ex also seems like a nice addition, but I want to see if anyone has been having any success with the speed version of the deck?
Click to expand...

Nah, never got around to trying that. Juniper hasn't been as bad recently, so I haven't had the need to take them out anymore.
 
spartanzdude3 said:
Has anyone been successful with a Speed Charizard list? Maybe one that involves Pyroar?
For the speed Charizard, I have been thinking about doing a build with 2-2 electrode line or maybe even delphox. Jirachi ex also seems like a nice addition, but I want to see if anyone has been having any success with the speed version of the deck?
Click to expand...
I've only heard about one player that purportedly built a "speed" Charizard deck, but I have not yet seen the list nor has that player run it in recent LC tournaments.

On the other hand, I did incorporate Delphox into my deck. I've found it (2-1-2 line) to provide consistent draw and its Ability does not conflict with playing Blacksmith at all. My other card-drawing support includes:

1 Bicycle
2 Colress
4 N
2 PJ

This configuration, plus the Delphox works well for me.
 
I like the idea of 2-2 electrode or 2-2 delphox over 4 fiery torch. I'd go with delphox; 6 draw consistency, another fire attacker, and the fact that maybe a miltank or 2 can be fit in here would improve the deck. The only thing to solve is how to get around the Latias EX without having to waste some resources on a Charizard...
 
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