The new garbodor from SUMO 2 has a lot of potential. What is the best partner for it? I'm thinking tauros for now with more disruption but there are other options like eeveelutions.
Discussion Garbodor SUMO 2 paired with...?
- Thread starter Moist Socks
- Start date
Why does everyone think Tauros-GX should go in everything? I also don't think disruption belongs here and the Eeveelutions aren't for this deck. Garbodor does all the work, just let the opponent play the game. I know that is hard for some people to do but it's the best play.
I think the AOR eevees are actually quite good here because they lower the item threshold you need to hit to get OHKOs against a lot of popular decks like volc/decidueye/yveltal. Otherwise it's kind of awkward to hit those marks against a good opponent because unlike other discard scale decks, your opponent ultimately has control over how much damage you can do.
Weakness makes the difference between needing 5-7 cards in discard to OHKO the entire game verses needing 10-14 cards. You can pretty easily play a game without getting 10-14 items in discard though it will be slower than standard. It's extremely hard to play without discarding 5-7 items. I think the mere presence of Garbodor is going to cause a significant shift away from the omnipresent sycamore/vs seeker/ultra ball draw engine.
All garb decks will want to run a heavy line of field blower because that's an excellent way to get items in discard. Items to recycle garbs will also be important since it really shines in the lategame. There are very few ways to pull items out of discard. Even if they run Herdier/Milotic they're still probably using balls to search them.
Weakness makes the difference between needing 5-7 cards in discard to OHKO the entire game verses needing 10-14 cards. You can pretty easily play a game without getting 10-14 items in discard though it will be slower than standard. It's extremely hard to play without discarding 5-7 items. I think the mere presence of Garbodor is going to cause a significant shift away from the omnipresent sycamore/vs seeker/ultra ball draw engine.
All garb decks will want to run a heavy line of field blower because that's an excellent way to get items in discard. Items to recycle garbs will also be important since it really shines in the lategame. There are very few ways to pull items out of discard. Even if they run Herdier/Milotic they're still probably using balls to search them.
Relying on only garbodor to attack Is a good way to lose very badly. Energy heavy decks that don't need to dig to much for good damage will play very few items and win. So likely you will need to pick an attacker that can threaten your opponent and force them to go for speed and then come in with garbodor once it starts being able to hit big numbers. Espeon gx could be pretty good for this can confuse and do good damage to allot of threats
4 Tapu Lele +4 Trubbish +2each of the garbodor brothers = 48 open deck spaces for whatever you want.
edit: I got bored and thought of a basic trash disruption deck:
2 Tapu Lele GX
2 Shaymin EX
3 Trubbish
2 Garbotoxin
2 Trashalanche
1 Jolteon EX
1 Glaceon EX
4 DCE
4 Rainbow Energy
2 Silent Lab
2 Parallel City
3 Choice Band
4 Float Stone
1 Field Blower
1 Rescue Stretcher
1 Special Charge
4 Ultra Ball
4 VS Seeker
4 Sycamore
3 N
2 Lysandre
1 Olympia
4 Crushing Hammer
1 Enhanced Hammer
4 Puzzle of Time
No energy, No abilities, No Items. Basic Pokemon do no damage, Evolved Pokemon do no damage.
edit: I got bored and thought of a basic trash disruption deck:
2 Tapu Lele GX
2 Shaymin EX
3 Trubbish
2 Garbotoxin
2 Trashalanche
1 Jolteon EX
1 Glaceon EX
4 DCE
4 Rainbow Energy
2 Silent Lab
2 Parallel City
3 Choice Band
4 Float Stone
1 Field Blower
1 Rescue Stretcher
1 Special Charge
4 Ultra Ball
4 VS Seeker
4 Sycamore
3 N
2 Lysandre
1 Olympia
4 Crushing Hammer
1 Enhanced Hammer
4 Puzzle of Time
No energy, No abilities, No Items. Basic Pokemon do no damage, Evolved Pokemon do no damage.
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I feel everyone is forgetting something here and I think it's a matter of skill level. What do the eeveelutions contribute to this deck? EVERY deck in the format is very item heavy. Your opponent will do the work for you. Your goal as the Garbodor player is to keep them flowing and hitting hard. When one get KO'ed, you need to have another one ready to go. Most decks will play 8 items on their first turn. That is 160 damage alone, not including Choice Band. You don't need hammers, you don't need Eeveelutions, you don't need other attackers, Tapu Lele does the work and you don't need hammers. Your goal is to get them down quickly and keep them going. You have Wally, Super Rod and Rescue Stretcher, which are really good at doing this.
You don't need to lock the opponent. Just let them play and they do all the work for you, more than likely on their first turn.
You don't need to lock the opponent. Just let them play and they do all the work for you, more than likely on their first turn.
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I think this hit the nail on the head lol!
Basing your gameplan on your opponent trying to speed up his game might work while Garb is new but as people start adapting to its presence, there will be a shift in how people respond to it. Tapu Lele doesn't really offer much pressure unless they're attaching energy to their active or you're chaining multiple DCE onto it (there's major synergy here of course because the threat of a trashalanche protects your special energies from hammers/vs seekered TFG), and Garbodor does nothing unless they play items.
If you have a t1 Trubbish, nobody who has a clue is going to start dropping items willy nilly unless there's some other imminent threat they need to be prepared to handle. Accelerating your gameplan against solo Garb by using items plays directly into the Garb player's hand, we agree on that. Garbodor as a card is almost perfectly designed to punish people for playing the game as it is currently played, with a very item use/draw/discard heavy early game. Just because decks play 8 items on turn 1 today doesn't mean you can reasonably expect them to make that play come May.
It wouldn't be the first time a new attacker has forced people to reconsider how the game needs to be played. When you have a one prize card that can hit those damage numbers against someone autopiloting through virtually any generic 2017 deck for one energy there has to be, at some point, a reckoning for how the autopilot is programmed.
If you have a t1 Trubbish, nobody who has a clue is going to start dropping items willy nilly unless there's some other imminent threat they need to be prepared to handle. Accelerating your gameplan against solo Garb by using items plays directly into the Garb player's hand, we agree on that. Garbodor as a card is almost perfectly designed to punish people for playing the game as it is currently played, with a very item use/draw/discard heavy early game. Just because decks play 8 items on turn 1 today doesn't mean you can reasonably expect them to make that play come May.
It wouldn't be the first time a new attacker has forced people to reconsider how the game needs to be played. When you have a one prize card that can hit those damage numbers against someone autopiloting through virtually any generic 2017 deck for one energy there has to be, at some point, a reckoning for how the autopilot is programmed.
That is the reason Tapu Lele GX works that well as an attacker in Garbodor decks. the deck needs some Big Basic Pokémon to start with an take the first two prize cards. In the ideal case these attackers should be able to hold their own and pressure the opponent to run through their deck faster in oder to deal with them. In addition to Tapu Lele GX there are some other attackers that fit that bill. Examples would be Tauros GX with Fighting Fury Belt, Drampa GX with Choice Band and Magma's Secret Base and Espeon GX. All three secondary attackers are able to hold their own and tend to pressure the opponent to invest resources in order to deal with them fast.
This is another aspect that i like about this card and the main reason to run the secondary attackers as the lead of the deck. also note that it is hard to build a deck that runs consistent with less than sixtheen items and without a need to run at least two to three professor Sycamore to draw needed cards. Using items and Professor Sycamore will fill the discard over time.
However there are means to counter Garbodor. You either want Pokémon that are hard to take down in one hit to even the prize trade and that have natural support to control when items need to be used. Alolan Ninetales GX fits that description due to Alolan Vulpix and Ice Path. Another means would be to find some decent one-prize attackers that can hold their own and take out Big Basic Pokémon in one hit or otherwise even out the prize trade with Garbodor decks. Articuno AT would come to mind here as a tech in fast paced water decks. It does not matter that you trade ohkos with the opponent when you can stream attackers as wel as they do and be ahead in the prize race. The third option that comes to mind is to make sure that you are much faster than Garbodor decks and that you are able to stream attackers and steamroll them. The latter approach rests on the assumption that you will trade ohkos with the opponent rather soon and that you need to stay ahead in the prize race.
It allows you to OHKO Decidueye GX, which can be a problem considering they partner the card with Vileplume, which cases the deck to naturally play less items. It's why Eeveelutions is the second most successful version of the deck in Japan, behind the natural Trashalanche/Tapu Lele GX build.
For now. How long will that be the case, however? Remember that the Meta shifts to the demands of the players, not the other way around. We'll start seeing decks that are strong against Trubbish/Garbodor itself or decks that don't require as many items to hit for high numbers. It's already happening in Japan. It'll happen here, too.
Once again, this is under the current standard deck build of our current Meta. That will change over time.
Eeveelutions helps that against your bulkier Match-ups. What do you do against Lapras GX if they take an approach of simply drawing and Energy Attachment? You deal little damage and they kill you. How about Decidueye, once again, who doesn't necessarily need items to beat you? They snipe your Trubbishes, they kill your Garbodors, and you can't even remotely think of an OHKO. How about A-Ninetales GX? They attach a DCE and you sit there doing 0 damage as they take their times sniping everything you have. What, you Tapu Lele? That's cool. I'll easily trade 60-80 damage to stop the main function of your deck and KO your Tapu Leles at my leisure. Plus, I'll be running Lele as well 99% of the time, meaning I'll have the advantage when it comes to attacking/damage.
All without having to actually use items.
Ability Lock is actually incredibly useful in a deck like Garbodor. It stops them from using any form of acceleration to find an early answer. Remember that you still don't have a 100% win against things like Decidueye/Vileplume and A-Ninetales GX (as we found out is a very, very good deck). You still have to respect that they can both snipe Trubbish and can play around the scaling of Garbodor.
Plus, in reality, you're switching from a 4-4 to a 4-3 with an Ability Lock Garbodor. That's not a big deal when it comes to consistency nor space.
I still believe Garbodor is a Top Tier deck because, quite frankly, it is. I just think that your line of thinking is incredibly narrow and if the deck is to continuously adapt, that needs to change as a general. Decks can get around the card so long as the Player has knowledge of how to do so, which takes a bit of research. Sorry to sound condescending here, but quite frankly, I feel like your post is absolutely misleading when it comes to this deck.
-Asmer
Wrong. For the reasons above. Also, I'm just finding you everywhere, aren't I? <3
Sure, that is true but they are unnecessary to the deck, even more so for one match. You still play Wob and the Garbodor with Ability lock and Vileplume is one of the most item heavy decks in the format just so they can setup. You don't need to OHKO them and since you do Ability lock them, the Eeveelutions end up being useless.
Sure, the meta will shift but as things are, they do the work for you. Garbodor isn't designed to be a meta defining card. It was designed to be a thorn in the sides of the players. They want you to keep it in mind when building decks and hopefully will slow the game down but right now, how will decks like Turbo Dark, Water variants, Volcanion, other speed decks work without their Max Elixir, Trainers' Mail, Ultra Ball, VS Seeker, etc will exist? The common core of decks is like 20 items. This will change over time but these decks can't function being slow.
Read above
Can you name two? What does Eeveelutions do against Lapras GX and A Ninetales GX? Is there a Leafeon and metal-type Eeveelution I'm not aware of? What do you do against Lapras GX? You let them play their items. Those Dive Balls, Max Elixir, other cards add up and I'm not sure A Ninetales is as good as you think. You can also stack energy on the Tapu, which also has a really good GX attack.
I mean, if you want to play much slower than normal, then sure but I don't think much players know how to do that, considering people don't know how to play without Shaymin-EX, Hoopa-EX and Trainers' mail.
You still play Wob and the Ability locking Garbodor and most forms of acceleration is item based. Just like you said the meta will shift, the Garb player can always run Potions, which is very effective against snipe and spread damage.
Pokemon isn't really that complex a game. If you don't Prize the Ability lock Garbodor, then you're fine but you also run two or three Wob, which are really good early in the game while you let your opponent setup for you.
I don't see it as a top tier deck but something that exist as a weird fart in an open room. You can smell it, but don't know where it came from. It will win if you build your deck with standard core and play as such and any good player can play around it but each Sycamore your play, each "other" Item you play adds to its damage output. You simply can't play item cards in decks like Turbo Dark, Water decks, Volcanion or even Vileplume. Every deck being played needs them to set up. Again, what deck can easily play around this Wob without a specialized build to do that that can also function well against other decks? Condescending, how so? I'm being real here but I feel you're underplaying the actual effect this will have on the game. This Garbodor isn't like Karen or the new Oricorio. Karen didn't discourage Night March or Bee decks. Promo Giratina didn't discourage BREAK deck. These decks were still heavily played and that's because the players didn't want to risk running such a tech since they were a hindrance most of the time but this Garbodor don't win a specific matchup, it wis all matchups because it punishes the meta's common core. Even item locking decks run heavy items. To put this into prespective, Vileplume runs at least 16 Item cards. That is 320 damage for a deck designed to stop item use and if they don't play them, they will be discarded due to Sycamore or they lose and Wob is a thorn in this decks side.
Ok, after reading what you all have posted in this thread, I arrived to a conclusion: we don't really know right now how the new Garbodor will impact in the current meta game.
This is the same cause-effect syndrome always existed in this game (or at least from the moment I started playing). If everyone is running Garbodor, then more people will play more cards to counter it, not put some cards that power up Garb in their decks, or just play in a different way. I mean, if that happens, I can see a lot less Sycamore in decks and more Birch or Shauna in the future.
Regarding the Eeveelutions stuff, I think it depends on how the metagame adapts to this new expansion. If many people play defensevely agains Garb by keeping their items out if the discard pile, then Eevees will see more play because Garb alone won't be enough to OHKO. If the meta keeps the same or similar to what is now, then Eevees won't be necessary. We just need to wait and see what happens.
This is the same cause-effect syndrome always existed in this game (or at least from the moment I started playing). If everyone is running Garbodor, then more people will play more cards to counter it, not put some cards that power up Garb in their decks, or just play in a different way. I mean, if that happens, I can see a lot less Sycamore in decks and more Birch or Shauna in the future.
Regarding the Eeveelutions stuff, I think it depends on how the metagame adapts to this new expansion. If many people play defensevely agains Garb by keeping their items out if the discard pile, then Eevees will see more play because Garb alone won't be enough to OHKO. If the meta keeps the same or similar to what is now, then Eevees won't be necessary. We just need to wait and see what happens.
I won't go through this one line by line
Here is the thing. What do you change about Mega Ray to make it less item dependent and still able to compete against every other deck in the format? Same with Turbo Darkrai. Same with Volcanion. Same with Deciplume. Sure you can reduce the item counts in these decks and you can take it to a tournament expecting to see Trashalanche. But what happens if / when you don't see Trashalanche and all you see is a bunch of these same standard decks that are optimized to obliterate everything but Trashalanche? Well, you likely get obliterated.
I don't see this as much different than the devil's choice in expanded. You either go extreme control or you go extreme speed or early power. There is no in between. It is the same choice in standard. I either go extreme speed and take my loss against players using Trashalanche or I go extreme control (like Quad Lapras) and hope the speed decks don't overwhelm me before I gain control.
What I don't see happening is Trashalanche completely changing how people approach deck building. I agree with @crystal_pidgeot on this because honestly I think this Garbodor deck becomes just another one to be aware of in the same way Accelgor / Wobbuffet is another deck to be aware of in expanded. Should you always run some kind of alternate escape out of active beyond something like Keldeo or relying on free retreat? Absolutely. But most decks don't have space for that and would rather risk the bad match up against one deck than weaken the match ups against every other deck. That's how I see this playing out. I think there is a level of "keep it simple stupid" to this Garbodor deck that needs to be considered.
Honestly, if I were going to pair anything with it, I would pair it with Talonflame and Lele because I *do* think that it will be relatively easy to constantly stream the Garbs up given the correct trainer choices and Talonflame just makes it that much easier to pull off. Lele is there for the alternate attacker. Talonflame is there for getting going + a free retreat starting option. And yeah, if that looks a lot like a Greninja deck, it is because it is. That's exactly how I would play it too. I would add control cards into my list and force my opponent to use items. It is easy to say "don't use items" until I have Lele up there beating on your active and you are sitting there without energy waiting to do something because you don't want to use items. Of all the potential decks out there, this one is the one most likely to force your opponent into doing something they don't want to do because Lele really is that solid of a card to pair with it.
I have no idea why you would think this is the case... but no, not by a long shot.
Most Decidueye/Vileplume decks run between 28-30 Trainers in general... at most. about 10 of those slots are dedicated to Supporters and 4 are dedicated to Forest of Giant Plants. assuming we're going with 28, which most builds seem to fall under, that leaves us with 14 actual Items. Considering every other deck in the Meta currently, from Volcanion to all the Mega decks to Quad Lapras... I have no idea what you're thinking nor where you got this source.
After typing this and re-reading what you had posted... I realized that you mentioned that Vileplume decks only run 16 items. I am utterly confused by your attempted arguments...
Of course Garbodor is incredibly effective as things are... I don't think I was questioning that. Heck, I don't expect the Meta to stay the same because this card exists.
Two decks that Garbodor would love to have Eeveelutions against? Sure.
1. Decidueye/Vileplume
2. Lurantis/Vileplume
3. Volcanion EX
4. M Rayquaza EX
5. M Scizor EX
6. Yveltal EX
All of those decks are currently played right now in some regard (granted, the last two are to a lesser extent, but Scizor is only getting stronger in GUR and Yveltal is still a good card at the very minimum). Of these cards, Every single one of them has an easy time OHKOing Garbodor with the exception of Yveltal EX and maybe Decidueye GX, but honestly, it isn't that complicated to find the extra 10 damage (assuming you use the ability). Decidueye, Lurantis, and Scizor are all weak to Fire. Volcanion is weak to Water. M Ray and Yveltal are weak to Lightning. The also share something in common and that is the fact that they all can hit or naturally hit over 200 HP. As I said before, I do think Garbodor is a Top Tier deck and I do think it does impressive numbers, but this idea that it's the end all is ridiculous and that there is viability in running things like Eeveelutions with it, which is why it has had success to begin with.
That is irrelevant to this argument...
I will say that the deck could potentially add healing options in the future. That said, what I was referencing was the fact that over time, we will simply start building decks that make Garbodor itself less effective than other decks/strategies. Granted, that may take a while and, quite frankly, I don't think it'll ever be completely irrelevant because of how it is designed, but that was my point nonetheless.
So, we agreed on this. That's good.
I don't see it as a top tier deck but something that exist as a weird fart in an open room. You can smell it, but don't know where it came from. It will win if you build your deck with standard core and play as such and any good player can play around it but each Sycamore your play, each "other" Item you play adds to its damage output. You simply can't play item cards in decks like Turbo Dark, Water decks, Volcanion or even Vileplume. Every deck being played needs them to set up. Again, what deck can easily play around this Wob without a specialized build to do that that can also function well against other decks? Condescending, how so? I'm being real here but I feel you're underplaying the actual effect this will have on the game. This Garbodor isn't like Karen or the new Oricorio. Karen didn't discourage Night March or Bee decks. Promo Giratina didn't discourage BREAK deck. These decks were still heavily played and that's because the players didn't want to risk running such a tech since they were a hindrance most of the time but this Garbodor don't win a specific matchup, it wis all matchups because it punishes the meta's common core. Even item locking decks run heavy items. To put this into prespective, Vileplume runs at least 16 Item cards. That is 320 damage for a deck designed to stop item use and if they don't play them, they will be discarded due to Sycamore or they lose and Wob is a thorn in this decks side.[/QUOTE]
After reading through everything... I have a feeling you didn't fully read what I had typed.
I said that I didn't mean to be condescending, not you. You weren't being condescending and I was ensuring that you didn't think I was. I simply wanted to point out that the Eeveelution build for Garbodor has, indeed, been successful in Japan and that there was no reason to think that it was either "unnecessary" nor "bad" or whatever variant of words anyone would like to use. It's a good build and it works well. Besides that... I've done my best to answer everything. I'm honestly utterly confused at half of the responses because, as I stated, the whole purpose of my original post was to simply argue in favor of Garbodor/Eeveelution being relevant and, quite frankly, good and some of the counterarguments simply contradict themselves.
No, it's definitely going to impact the Meta. It already has started in other Metas and the fact that we're discussing it right now is already the start.
Worst case, we go poke a Pro to run it. xD
Fair. And, quite frankly, this is how Eeveelutions work anyway, so... yeah. I agree.
The issue here is that both of you are still attempting to use old decks in a new Meta, expecting them to work without some form of change.I won't go through this one line by line
Here is the thing. What do you change about Mega Ray to make it less item dependent and still able to compete against every other deck in the format? Same with Turbo Darkrai. Same with Volcanion. Same with Deciplume. Sure you can reduce the item counts in these decks and you can take it to a tournament expecting to see Trashalanche. But what happens if / when you don't see Trashalanche and all you see is a bunch of these same standard decks that are optimized to obliterate everything but Trashalanche? Well, you likely get obliterated.
I don't see this as much different than the devil's choice in expanded. You either go extreme control or you go extreme speed or early power. There is no in between. It is the same choice in standard. I either go extreme speed and take my loss against players using Trashalanche or I go extreme control (like Quad Lapras) and hope the speed decks don't overwhelm me before I gain control.
What I don't see happening is Trashalanche completely changing how people approach deck building. I agree with @crystal_pidgeot on this because honestly I think this Garbodor deck becomes just another one to be aware of in the same way Accelgor / Wobbuffet is another deck to be aware of in expanded. Should you always run some kind of alternate escape out of active beyond something like Keldeo or relying on free retreat? Absolutely. But most decks don't have space for that and would rather risk the bad match up against one deck than weaken the match ups against every other deck. That's how I see this playing out. I think there is a level of "keep it simple stupid" to this Garbodor deck that needs to be considered.
Honestly, if I were going to pair anything with it, I would pair it with Talonflame and Lele because I *do* think that it will be relatively easy to constantly stream the Garbs up given the correct trainer choices and Talonflame just makes it that much easier to pull off. Lele is there for the alternate attacker. Talonflame is there for getting going + a free retreat starting option. And yeah, if that looks a lot like a Greninja deck, it is because it is. That's exactly how I would play it too. I would add control cards into my list and force my opponent to use items. It is easy to say "don't use items" until I have Lele up there beating on your active and you are sitting there without energy waiting to do something because you don't want to use items. Of all the potential decks out there, this one is the one most likely to force your opponent into doing something they don't want to do because Lele really is that solid of a card to pair with it.
First, we've talked about Volcanion. The deck can actually OHKO both Trubbish and Garbodor without overextending by using items. Darkrai as well, but at a slower pace. I have no idea why you and Pidgeot think Decidueye/Vileplume require bazillions of items to function as a deck, but both of you are incorrect. The deck runs 14-16 items and locks the rest out AND can apply early pressure to both Trubbish and Tapu Lele GX.
That said, and I'm sounding like a broken record... Garbodor is, indeed, a powerful deck. There is no doubt about that.
The fact is, however... is that if we, as players, are going to actually beat Garbodor, we need to learn to adapt to what it does. That's why it changes how people build decks. It literally forces us to change our strategies. It forces us to refresh and change the core bases of our game: Building, Gameplay, Strategy, etc. Why would that not affect how we build? I'm not saying the change is going to be this massive, drastic "Oh, we all need to run 20 Supporters" kind of change, but we will change. Period.
Quite frankly, the fact that we're all having this conversation has already shown how impacting the card is. After all, if it wasn't, we wouldn't be bothering.
So, that all said, I'm tired. I'm going to have a bunch of feedback, I'm sure, but keep in mind what we're discussing here. We have a new deck coming that already has promising results and, quite frankly, we all need to either play it or prepare for it.
Simple as that.
-Asmer
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My source was a Decidueye/Vileplume deck that won. It had
Pokémon - 24
- 1 Lugia-EX AOR 94
- 3 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
- 1 Tauros-GX SUM 100
- 2 Oddish AOR 1
- 2 Gloom AOR 2
- 2 Vileplume AOR 3
- 4 Rowlet SUM 9
- 4 Dartrix SUM 10
- 4 Decidueye-GX SUM 12
- 1 Jirachi PR-XY XY67
- 4 Professor Sycamore STS 114
- 2 Revitalizer GEN 70
- 4 Forest of Giant Plants AOR 74
- 4 Ultra Ball SUM 161
- 3 Float Stone BKT 137
- 3 Level Ball AOR 76
- 2 N NVI 101
- 2 Lysandre FLF 104
- 4 Trainers' Mail AOR 100
- 4 Double Colorless Energy SUM 136
- 4 Grass Energy 1
That is 16 Item cards that aren't unrealistic for the deck. These ALL find Pokemon so you can get that turn one Item lock, something you can't do without them. I mean, do I need to continue on with this? The list is about one month old.
Read above.
You need to look at it like this. Garbodor doesn't need to "win more", it just needs to win. Eeveelutions can make other matches better but why waste the card space adding them when you can add cards to recover and reuse Garbodor? All of those decks you listed are Item heavy and can't work without the use of their Items. What does Mega Ray do without their three Mega Turbo, four Trainers' Mail/Ultra Ball/VS Seeker/Puzzle of Time, one or two Super Rod, etc? What does Volcanion do without Ultra Ball/Max Elixir/ Energy Retrieval/ Float Stone/ Escape Rope?
With all of these Item heavy decks, what does Eeveelution add to the deck since you already OHKO things? When I say common core, I mean this;
4x Ultra Ball
3-4x Trainers' Mail
4x Max Elixir
3-4 Aqua Patch
2-3 Mega Turbo
4x VS Seeker
2-3x Float Stone
2x Escape Rope
1-2x Super Rod
2-3x Other ball cards
2-4 Deck specificity cards
Every deck runs a combination of these cards. If you can already KO things in one or two hits, why do you need Eeveelutions?
We aren't here to talk about in the future, we're talking about now. I can't know what the future meta will be. For all we know, we could all be playing Charizard decks. The point I was making is people don't know how to play the game without the above cards and will wait to see what a winning deck does before switching.
Maybe, that could have happened. Japan's meta doesn't matter since they have a much wider card pool than we do. Sure we can look at it but it isn't a 1:1 carbon copy. I feel Eeveelutions should be added to decks that need it or struggle against other matches. Garbodor isn't a deck that struggles against matchups but those designed to beat it. Can they be good, sure they can but the space is better used for recovery card. The point I was trying to make is not every Stage 1 deck needs Eeveelutions, which makes me question the skill of the player base. Can they be good, sure. Every stage one attack is better with them but are they needed? That is what you have to ask yourself. Does Garbodor need Eeveelutions. Your damage output is based on your opponent items in the discard pile, which is a huge factor here.
It affects the meta because of the common core and how many players are willing to play without Max Elixir or Trainers' Mail? My deck doesn't run these card but no one else runs my deck but I use other item cards in place of those.
I'm not attempting to use old decks in a new meta. The players have to change and many can't. Volcanion and Turbo Dark can't exist without Trainers' Mail and Max Elixir. That is seven to eight item cards they need for speed. Without them, they lose hard because they become too slow. Volcanion needs items to function because it can't revocer energy without them, even more so with a Wob lock in place.
What I think you fail to see is Decidueye/Vileplume needs items to setup. I posted a list above. It's designed to get the turn one lock, which it can't do without item.
No argument here.
You are right. I am attempting to use the old decks in a new meta because I don't think Garbodor is going to change the entire landscape of the meta. It will be featured in 3 decks at most: a straight Garb + variations, as a secondary attacker in M Mewtwo (which is how I would use it BTW), and as a secondary attacker in Espeon GX decks. There may be a couple other rogue decks, but that's pretty much the list. That's not meta defining. It forces a different strategy against those specific decks. But to simply blanket statement that the meta is going to change simply because Japan's meta changed is too much. We have a much more limited set of cards in standard than Japan does and that alone makes the meta different. Do I think there will be some shift? Yeah. Do I think most of the primary top decks will remain largely unchanged? Yeah. If anything, I think this card provides an opportunity for a couple of new decks and an outsized monstrosity of a nightmare deck in M Mewtwo.
I am not saying Deciplume requires a ton of items as a deck. It is actually fairly limited. However, it *does* use a ton of items on T1 to get set up and hit T1 Plume + a T1 Decidueye or 2 (or even 3 if they really got lucky). That's my point. I won't speak for Pidgeot
Might a Deciplume deck alter its approach to match a Garbodor deck's approach? Sure. But I don't think the deck itself will change much and I think by altering its approach to limit item use on T1 that the deck slows to a crawl. That might win. It might not and there is a better than average chance that instead of a T1 Plume, you get a T3 / T4 plume and just allowed Garb to get fully set up and ready to annihilate your deck. All because you wanted to limit its output rather than trying to outright beat it before it gets going. Basically I am saying that if you don't use items on that initial turn, the likelihood of actually getting a T1 Plume (most pressure) or a T1 Decidueye + a couple of Basic / S1 mons down for T2 completion (less pressure) is drastically reduced. That same statement goes for decks like Volcanion and Darkrai. Both *can* slow down to use fewer items, but eventually both are going to use them and I think the trash can deck could be built to force them to do just that. Both decks use Elixirs. Both decks like to ultra ball into a hoopa. Both decks like to burn hard to beat you before you set up. Neither deck functions against the rest of the meta without these cards. Neither deck will function against M Mewtwo without these cards. That's my point. You either burn to beat the deck and hope against hope they aren't running a Trashalanche M Mewtwo, or you get overpowered by M Mewtwo.
I agree with you about the power of the deck. I don't think anyone is arguing against that LOL! Where I disagree with you is the impact on how many of the standard decks are built currently and how those decks can be played to counter it. Flat out, I don't think most decks can avoid using less than 3-5 items early on and still set up. That's enough to get the trash can going. Then you start doing things like a VS Seeker here, a trainer's mail there, and suddenly you have a trash can one shotting everything on your board. I get the concept of using items sparingly in an effort to avoid the ultimate "i win" scenario that the trash can presents. But I think all you are doing if you do that is play to the slower pace the trash can wants you at. No Wobb is needed to do that. No Tauros is needed to do that. You did it to yourself.
Deciplume had an impact where we started to see more Wobb and Hex. Neither require a complete overhaul of most decks to implement. The other option to combat Deciplume would be to build decks that aren't as item dependent...which we very clearly have *not* seen. Maybe Deciplume in combination with Garbodor deck variations that will cause players to run fewer items. I tend to doubt it though because ultimately the game is about consistency. My deck needs to be as consistent as possible against as many match ups as possible and the best way to gain that consistency is item use. I need to be aware of Garbodor and I need to know how to counter it in my deck (if possible). Some decks flat out won't be able to counter it and may simply disappear as top tier decks going forward if Garbodor sees enough play. Others may be able to adapt their strategies to beat it. Some may just completely own it (I kind of think Greninja might own it). It will change the meta to some extent. I disagree on how much it will change the meta though because ultimately if I am playing M Mewtwo that tech'd in this Garbodor, I am in the ultimate "pick your poison" scenario. If anything, I anticipate M Mewtwo decks (and by extension M Gardevoir decks) to become more popular in the upcoming meta and that's where I think the primary impact will occur. It is going to take a deck that is already extremely strong, and make it a nightmare.
Nah, don't take it like that! This is a fun discussion and is why we are on the boards right? I like your perspective and usually agree with it on most of posts where I read them. None of this is going to matter in the long run because we are going to find out in no time right? LOL! I think it is good to have disagreements. You may end up being right and you definitely have more evidence for your position than I do based on Japan's results.
I think the main point Fayld wanted to make is that Vileplume decks tend to run through their items in their first two turns in order to set up. That is not uncommon to set up and control decks. Recall that Garbodor needs no more than seven to nine items in the discard to ohko Big Basic Pokémon. Also keep in mind that it can run either Wobbuffet or Garbodor BKP to lock down abilities. This will hurt Lurantis and Vileplume. Keep in mind that one of the key factors to the success of Alolan Ninetales GX is Ice Path. It allows the deck to knock out two Big Basic Pokémon in Garbodors arsenal before it is knocked out itself.
On a general not. Did anyone consider to fight fire with fire and attempt to build a deck that is able to outrace Garbodor without providing it some easier to knock out liabilities that give up two prizes? Aqua Box could be a decent means to accomplish this aim.
This is theorymon but these are my early thoughts on Garbodor:
- Garbodor is a very good card
- The opponent needs to play carefully against it and only play Item cards when absolutely necessary.
- If, as has been suggested, you rely on the opponent to "do all the work for you" then Garbodor will be very easy to play around - even decks with high Item card counts, such as M Rayquaza, Turbo Darkrai and Volcanion, can forgo using Items and just sit and attach Energy to slowly build their board state.
- Garbodor needs an early-game, big Basic to pressure the opponent to stop them from playing the slow game (thus using their Item cards) - Tapu Lele seems the obvious early choice here.
- Garbodor (BKP) is a good partner to limit the opponent's options for draw, search, damage, etc. and, again, tempt the opponent into playing Item cards.
- Alternative options for getting your opponent's Item cards into the discard pile should be tested (e.g. Team Rocket's Handiwork, Delinquent, Bunnelby).
This is theorymon but these are my early thoughts on Garbodor:
This deck clearly has the potential to be the BDIF and will change the way people approach the game (low Item card counts and, maybe, holding off from blowing everything until you know you're not playing against Garbodor).
- Garbodor is a very good card
- The opponent needs to play carefully against it and only play Item cards when absolutely necessary.
- If, as has been suggested, you rely on the opponent to "do all the work for you" then Garbodor will be very easy to play around - even decks with high Item card counts, such as M Rayquaza, Turbo Darkrai and Volcanion, can forgo using Items and just sit and attach Energy to slowly build their board state.
- Garbodor needs an early-game, big Basic to pressure the opponent to stop them from playing the slow game (thus using their Item cards) - Tapu Lele seems the obvious early choice here.
- Garbodor (BKP) is a good partner to limit the opponent's options for draw, search, damage, etc. and, again, tempt the opponent into playing Item cards.
- Alternative options for getting your opponent's Item cards into the discard pile should be tested (e.g. Team Rocket's Handiwork, Delinquent, Bunnelby).
Great summary of the main arguments. You can only play a slow game in case Garbodor's assistance line does not threaten to overrun your defense and offense if you slow down the game. With assistance lines such as Tauros GX and Drampa GX this can be rather card. An alternative means I considered is to not slow down but to increase the speed of the own decks and swarm Garbodor with a decent combination of fast and furious one-prize and two-prize attackers. This tactic accepts that you will in fact trade ohkos for ohkos. The benefit of Garbodor is that he is a one-prize attacker. If you can find a deck that trades favorable with Garbodor and his minions and has the same amount of speed you might in fact not need or want to slow down at all and restrain from using items. Restraining from using items seems counterproductive to me for several decks. In fact a lot of them will need to find means to set up much faster and trade more favorable with Garbodor and his minions.
I think Volcanion provides a perfect example of this. Beyond trading baby Volcanion against Trash Cans, I think you will also see Entei come back as a tech for these decks (it already is for a number of lists) simply to give the deck one more positive trade that hits like a truck with minimal energy attachments. It is only one example, but I think it will become a somewhat common question: what big basic can I add to get a positive trade and force Garb to essentially take 7 prizes.