Discussion Gardevoir GX - Options for Quicker Evolution

[JDA]

The thing with Diance is that if you want to have it as a consistent opening you'd want to run more as you do Ralts. If you do that it also needs to have a significant purpose in the lategame (like Ralts to Gardevoir GX has, or Sylveon GX for that matter).

Sylveon GX can be disrupted by N, at the same time it can also find N to disrupt your opponent. As such there is no significant disadvantage there, your opponent needs to have N or fall under the force of the 3 cards you've searched for.

One of the reasons why I personally dont use Wally and wont consider him is that like Diance there is a set time to the card being good. One of the key approaches for great decks to me is be filled with cards that are both relevant early game and lategame. Gardevoir GX fits that bill, so does Sylveon GX and frankly speaking there are few things as backbreaking is playing a Guzma and attack with Plea GX.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

The thing with Diance is that if you want to have it as a consistent opening you'd want to run more as you do Ralts. If you do that it also needs to have a significant purpose in the lategame (like Ralts to Gardevoir GX has, or Sylveon GX for that matter).

Sylveon GX can be disrupted by N, at the same time it can also find N to disrupt your opponent. As such there is no significant disadvantage there, your opponent needs to have N or fall under the force of the 3 cards you've searched for.

One of the reasons why I personally dont use Wally and wont consider him is that like Diance there is a set time to the card being good. One of the key approaches for great decks to me is be filled with cards that are both relevant early game and lategame. Gardevoir GX fits that bill, so does Sylveon GX and frankly speaking there are few things as backbreaking is playing a Guzma and attack with Plea GX.

Diance is definitely my optimal opening Pokémon, but it's not the end of the world if I don't start with it. I play a list very similar to Andrew Mahone's. If I don't start with Diance, I try to get one on the bench turn one, Float Stone my active, and then switch them. Guzma can get Diance into the active too if needed. Whether you play Diance, Vulpix, or Sylveon, you're going to have games where you struggle to get them out when needed. It's just the nature of the game.

I could argue that Sylveon's relevance greatly decreases once you get Gardevoir out. Why use Plea GX when you can just get the knock out with Gardevoir and take 1-2 prize cards? That is the strategy of the deck after all. Get multiple Gardevoir out, stack energy, get OHKOs.

 

[Adi]

I think setting up Gardevoir turn 1 to attack isn't very helpful because you will probably only be doing 30 damage. Plus that takes up a lot of cards in your deck if you want to be consistent with that move. If you plan on running 3 Guzma I still suggest you run 3 Fairy Garden because what if you don't have another pokemon set up to attack or retreat. Even if you do have something set up to retreat unless you plan on including Tapu Koko Promo you'll have to discard energies trying to retreat a pokemon. You need all the energy on the bench you can get. Without Special Charge, Super Rod, and stuff like Brock's Grit you aren't getting those Energy back. I forgot to mention this, but running 3 Fairy Garden is good disruption against decks that run heavily on their own stadium like Volcanion EX, Tapu Bulu GX/Vikavolt, etc. I still think Sylveon GX is the best option because you can get it down turn 1, and it's Magical Ribbon is crazy. I know N is out there, but without VS Seeker you will only see 4 at most a game. Unfortunately with Tapu Lele GX they can pull one, but you will have a higher chance of not seeing an N in the new format. People saying Sylveon GX is bad are wrong in my opinion. It's 110 attack is hard for 3 energies, but this deck already runs 4 DCE, so it's not that hard to setup. It's GX attack is very underated. This attack allows you to wreck setup decks. Take Metagross GX, this is a bad matchup for Gardevoir GX deck, but with Plea GX you can put 2 Metagross's back into the deck. Now Metagross GX can't hit for 150 every turn. There are so many other good decks which require setup in the new meta. There is Gardevoir GX, Metagross GX, Greninja Break, and a lot of stage 1 decks. Plus if they have a lot of energy on their bench pokemon like Darkrai EX decks you can put them all back in the deck. I hope this helps.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I think setting up Gardevoir turn 1 to attack isn't very helpful because you will probably only be doing 30 damage. Plus that takes up a lot of cards in your deck if you want to be consistent with that move. If you plan on running 3 Guzma I still suggest you run 3 Fairy Garden because what if you don't have another pokemon set up to attack or retreat. Even if you do have something set up to retreat unless you plan on including Tapu Koko Promo you'll have to discard energies trying to retreat a pokemon. You need all the energy on the bench you can get. Without Special Charge, Super Rod, and stuff like Brock's Grit you aren't getting those Energy back. I forgot to mention this, but running 3 Fairy Garden is good disruption against decks that run heavily on their own stadium like Volcanion EX, Tapu Bulu GX/Vikavolt, etc. I still think Sylveon GX is the best option because you can get it down turn 1, and it's Magical Ribbon is crazy. I know N is out there, but without VS Seeker you will only see 4 at most a game. Unfortunately with Tapu Lele GX they can pull one, but you will have a higher chance of not seeing an N in the new format. People saying Sylveon GX is bad are wrong in my opinion. It's 110 attack is hard for 3 energies, but this deck already runs 4 DCE, so it's not that hard to setup. It's GX attack is very underated. This attack allows you to wreck setup decks. Take Metagross GX, this is a bad matchup for Gardevoir GX deck, but with Plea GX you can put 2 Metagross's back into the deck. Now Metagross GX can't hit for 150 every turn. There are so many other good decks which require setup in the new meta. There is Gardevoir GX, Metagross GX, Greninja Break, and a lot of stage 1 decks. Plus if they have a lot of energy on their bench pokemon like Darkrai EX decks you can put them all back in the deck. I hope this helps.

I think you bring up some valid points. However, setting up Gardevoir turn 2 is very helpful. Even if you only have one energy attached, if your opponent has any energy attached to their active Pokémon then you're doing more than 30 damage. Plus, you're not taking Gardevoir's ability into account which allows you to attach an extra Fairy Energy per turn. So let's say you attach a DCE and then use it's ability to attach a Fairy Energy. That's now 90 before even adding your opponent's energy to the attack's damage. You could easily do 120-150 damage turn 2 if they have 1-2 energy on their active. I think people are underestimating just how fast the damage can stack up. I played a Houndoom EX/Charizard GX mill deck at league last night and I OHKO'd a Charizard GX for 270 damage.

I see the value of Sylveon, but Plea GX is extremely situational. Most of the time you're going to want to get OHKOs with your Gardevoir instead of using Sylveon's Plea GX. Why Plea GX something when you can knock it out instead? Like you said, there are a lot of decks that run a lot of energy, which Gardevoir takes advantage of. I could see it being helpful against the Metagross matchup, but if you can set up faster than your opponent then it's not needed.

 

[Adi]

You can get a Gardevoir GX down turn 2 using Diancie, but you can also do that by using Sylveon GX. Let me show you how both of our turns would go. You would put a Fairy Energy on Diancie, and put Ralts on the bench. You would use Diancie's attack, and get the Kirlia down. Then you would put Gardevoir down on Kirlia turn 2 assuming you could find it. I would put a Fairy Energy on Eevee, and put Sylveon GX down. I would put a Ralts on the bench, and then use Magical Ribbon to pull a Rare Candy, Gardevoir GX, and some other card.

Diancie

Pros:
You have a more consistent and guaranteed way of putting a Gardevoir GX down turn 2 with Diancie.

Cons:
You have to be able to find Gardevoir GX on your second turn.
Diancie has absolutely no use after the first few turns.

Sylveon GX

Pros:
You can pull the necessary cards to get Gardevoir GX down turn 2, and one more card like Ralts, draw support, etc.
Sylveon GX can be a useful card after the first couple of turns.

Cons:
Your opponent can play a N, and make you shuffle in the cards you pulled.

I personally think Sylveon GX is a better card, but some people like Diancie more. It really comes down to your battling style, and how you think the deck will work best. Some people like the consistency of Diancie. Others like Sylveon GX's Plea GX, and how you can pull 3 cards. Diancie players don't want to risk the N. Sylveon GX players think that the risk is not that big, and the gains are worth it. It really just comes down to preference. Here would be my decklist by the way.

Pokemon: 18

4 Ralts
2 Kirlia
1 Gallade
3 Gardevoir GX
2 Tapu Lele GX
3 Eevee
2 Sylveon GX
1 Oranguru

Trainers: 29

Items
3 Rare Candy
4 Ultra Ball
2 Choice Band
2 Field Blower
1 Rescue Stretcher
2 Professor's Letter

Supporters
4 N
3 Professor Sycamore
1 Brigette
3 Guzma
1 Acerola

Stadium
3 Fairy Garden

Energy: 13

9 Fairy Energy
4 Double Colorless Energy

I know the decision to include Oranguru is controversial, but since I don't run Octillery in this list it is the best way to utilize Gallade's ability. I hope this helps.

 

[Duo]

So I apologize if what I'm about to say has already been said. I skimmed through the replies but didn't read them all. I play Gardevoir GX myself, so I have some experiences that I can share here.

I'm going to tell you right now that Diance is, by far, the best option. Being able to guarantee an evolution at the end of your turn is better than using Alolan Vulpix's Beacon just to have them N'd away next turn. We're moving to a Standard format where people are going to be playing 4 N with 2-4 Tapu Lele in just about every deck. If you use Beacon, your opponent will do everything in their power to N you next turn.

That's not to say Alolan Vulpix is worthless. On the contrary, I see why people would want to run it over Diance. If you don't get N'd the turn after you use it, and that's a big if, it can be extremely effective. However, I would personally rather go for the guarantee over the gamble.

I saw a comment on this thread that said that Diance "stops being good" after the first couple of turns. Maybe that's true, but if it was able to quickly get 1-2 Gardevoir out, didn't it do it's job? You're obviously not going to need Diance the whole game, just like you wouldn't need Alolan Vulpix the whole game. It's job is to get some quick evolutions and then let Gardevoir take over.

I see a lot of people talking about Sylveon GX. I understand the appeal, but again, it goes back to the fact that N can ruin your Magical Ribbon next turn. You have to look at your win condition, which is Gardevoir. The strategy of this deck is to get out as many Gardevoir as you can, as fast as you can. I feel like Magical Ribbon is just not consistent. I play a lot of draw support cards (Sycamore, N, Lillie) and out of the games I've played, I've only had one game where I just couldn't get momentum, which happens to every deck from time to time.

If anyone is interested, Andrew from Derium's Competitve Pokémon channel posted a Gardevoir deck list yesterday. I found it extremely helpful.

Thank you for sharing this video. It was very insightful.

Things I agree upon greatly - attaching a float stone instead of Choice band and completely skipping fairy garden. The logic makes a ton of sense with how Gardy GX works, and Fairy Garden requires you to have fairy energy attached in order to retreat for "free," so it loses speed in those regards. Both Float Stone and Fairy Garden are susceptible to Field Blower, but Fairy Garden might get bopped by another Stadium card and/or benefit your opponent in the mirror match, making it effectively not as good as float stones.

Things I dislike - The 2 Lillies don't really seem to contribute that much to be taking up 2 slots. If he's rocking 4x Gardy GX, I would even think Olivia is a better consideration.

I'm totally game with running 4x Gardy GX, but I'm not game with completely removing Gallade. It's interesting that he focuses on the concept of your win condition, but I think he also needs to consider the deck's lose condition as well. Call me biased because I want to play both Gardy GX and Alolan Ninetales GX, but deck lists like this are the reason why I run 2 BUS Alolan Ninetales in that deck. If I have 1 in active and 1 in bench and literally nothing else after the rest of my Mons were KO'd and 1-2 prizes are still left, a full Gardy GX build like this basically just loses by default (since you can't Guzma anything), and there's nothing Kirlia or Diance/Sylveon/Vulpix can do about it. You must run Gallade simply because Alolan Ninetales exists. The circumstance is kind of rare, but the fact that a pure GX deck can completely lose to just 2 BUS Alolan Ninetales means that you need an out. You can spare 1 out of 60 cards to prevent from getting locked out.

I basically took his decklist and did -2 Lillie for +1 Gallade and +1 Professor's Letter.

I do still want to try the Sylveon GX build at a 2/2 line though, which would just be -2 Diancie and -1/1 Remoraid/Octillery line.

Deck building is literally endless isn't it.

 

[JDA]

Diance is definitely my optimal opening Pokémon, but it's not the end of the world if I don't start with it. I play a list very similar to Andrew Mahone's. If I don't start with Diance, I try to get one on the bench turn one, Float Stone my active, and then switch them. Guzma can get Diance into the active too if needed. Whether you play Diance, Vulpix, or Sylveon, you're going to have games where you struggle to get them out when needed. It's just the nature of the game.

I could argue that Sylveon's relevance greatly decreases once you get Gardevoir out. Why use Plea GX when you can just get the knock out with Gardevoir and take 1-2 prize cards? That is the strategy of the deck after all. Get multiple Gardevoir out, stack energy, get OHKOs.

Its alwys possible to floatstone, though the likelyness of this happingen early game dimishes by playing a few of either, or a pair to be precise, unless Skyla is also part of the deck for some reason. The thing is, I don't think Diance has what it thakes to be top competitive and bring the best out of the build. I do however believe both Sylveon GX and Xerneas BREAK do have those atributes. These also work with Float Stone. Relying on tools to get the job done however is never a solid enough plan. Getting Guzma helps, using Guzma early game is again not the greatest plan. Especially not if your opponent brings a competitive deck aswell.

Sylveon GX's relevance never decreases, that's one of the points. You use Plea GX to set up the consisten win, as at some point at the game you have filtered out your energies and attached a boatload of them thanks to multiple Secret Spring. At which point you can stop relying on your opponent having a lot of energy on their pokemon. Setting back your opponent allows for the OHKO's. Diance doesn't do anything remotely close to that. In addition Plea GX also stops your opponent from using N, as when Plea GX is used well your opponent would then suffle back their key cards.

The key remains consistency and relevance. Eevee's Enegery Evolution is incredible as it drastically speeds up itself. Combine that with Magical Ribbon and we're talking about consistent set ups that can only be disruped by early game N's from your opponent, which is not the end of the world and in many cases (when played well) still leads to the Gardevoir GX player ending up with more cards. Searching out 3 cards from your deck and keeping them is currently one of the best set up options in the game.

 

[Duo]

I think the whole N argument is incredibly valid, but perhaps also a bit over emphasized.

Since VS Seeker is not a thing anymore, the best way to find N's is through Tapu Lele GX. That means if you don't have N in hand at the time of a Magical Ribbon, you're dropping -1 bench space to find that N - so you're definitely weakening your own set up to most likely weaken your opponent's.

Also, once you take your first 2 prizes, I would already consider Sycamore to be the better draw card in any situation that you can play out most of your hand. In some cases, discarding 1-3 cards with Sycamore that you feel like you'll never use again to draw 7 is better than Ning those unneeded resources back into deck and only drawing back 6 or less.

Talking about Sylveon GX specifically, if I see one hit my opponent's active there's no way I'm letting it live. It can swing for 110s to chip away or it can search and guarantee some set up for my opponent and forces me to have to focus on using N instead of supporters that may benefit me more in the early stages of the game, like Brigette. As I mentioned before, this might make me more inclined to use a few extra bench spaces on N.

In the case of the mirror match, because of how Gardevoir GX works, if my opponent is having fun stacking up a Gardy with 4 Fairy Energy and 1 DCE and leaning on 2 more energy on my side for an OHKO, if I just Guzma my own 2 Energy Gardy GX into a Gardy with that much set on it, not only do I get the KO, I get the KO for only 2 energy and my opponent loses 6 to the discard pile.

All I want to say is that N isn't the end of the world for Sylveon GX. If N was the end of the world, I don't see how Alolan Ninetales GX can even be meta when it relies on 4 Alolan Vulpix which has the exact same vulnerability.

 

[JDA]

I believe the point remains that Magical Ribbon lets you search for any 3 cards in your deck. Not just Pokemon, not just Trainers, not just Energies. I agree with you that Tapu Lele GX is also incredible, it is also another card that can be searched for with Magical Ribbon.

I agree with you that N isn't the end of the world for Sylveon GX, especially because we're not talking about 'wasting' a GX attacks on those 3 cards, like we for example do with Drampa GX. The prime reason as to why Alolan Ninetales GX can be meta has to do a lot with Greninja GX. However in this deck specifically I do not believe Alolan Ninetales GX adds what cannot be added by Sylveon GX. In that same vein I also still feel this deck has the space for Xerneas and Xerneas BREAK which furthermore only empower the eventual Gardevoir GX plan.
Alolan Ninetales GX is great if you have the Water Energies in your deck regardless (which Greninja has for example). If you don't however I don't think Alolan Vulpix is the allround best basic for "any deck".

The prime advantage of Sylveon GX in this deck is that it allows to search for any 3 cards, which means that unless your unable to read the board you are able to search for X+Y+Z, which means Sylveon GX sets up the hand and board. 3 cards to pick that are a fantastic combination are:

1. Tapu Lele GX
2. Gardevoir GX
3. Fairy Garden/Rare Candy/Choice Band/Field Blower

Essentially the above 3 will always lead to a Supporter, Main Plan and Board State Awnser/Problem. Diance has very little to do with these cards and can't really compete with it either. Alolan Vulpix is great but the prime advantage of Sylveon GX is that it's arguably the best current GX Eevee evolution for this deck that simply put wants to set up as soon as possible.

 

[Duo]

This might be overkill, but how about a deck list that uses both?

In my opinion, the 1/1 Remoraid/Octillery line and the 2 Lillie in Andrew's deck list act more like extra fluff rather than crucial strategy. Diancie, Ultra Ball, Lele, Professor's Letter, and Skyla offer so much search that I don't feel like you're ever going to use Lillie over N or Sycamore for blind draw power, especially Sycamore since Gardy's GX attack can save your discard pile. And by virtue of adding another Pokemon to bench (Sylveon), you have to take out another set (Octillery) to have room for it.

If both a Sylveon GX and Diancie are present in the deck list, doesn't that simply give you even more options? With the 16 supporter cards that deck list runs, you're basically never going to use about half of them anyway due to the average turn counts of a single game. So if you take that dead weight and shove it into versatility, I really don't see how that could make the deck any worse.

At this point in time, the only reason why 4 N and 4 Sycamore are justified in any deck list is because you don't want to have to bench Lele to find them - you want to bench a Lele to find Brigette, your niche supporter (Skyla in this case), or Guzma. Realistically you're never going to play all 4 N and all 4 Sycamore in a single game, but just like having 3 Tapu Lele, you run that many to see them often enough.

You would be running an incredibly cramped bench if you ever used both at the same time (1 Sylveon, 1 Diancie, 1/2 Gardy GX, 1/2 Lele, 1 active), but the point of having both is so that you can choose the right Pokemon for the right hand/match up/state of the game. If your opponent Sycamore'd away an N, you have a better window to off Sylveon. If your opponent seems to be playing conservatively or passing on dead draws, you can expect him/her to N soon to try and disrupt you so you play Diancie instead. I mean let's be straight. If you're afraid of your opponent N'ing your Sylveon search, why not just N their hand away yourself to get rid of theirs? It still leaves it up to chance, but if their bench is loaded and they can't Lele even if they wanted to, or if Lele would lead to inefficient bench space usage, why not?

I mean, at this point I feel like I'm preaching to the choir, but Sylveon GX can't be passed off as irrelevant just because N exists. That would be like saying "All GX and EX Pokemon are irrelevant because BUS Alolan Ninetales exists." There are enough ways to play the game around these advantages.

So taking all of that into mind...

Pokemon - 21

Gardevoir GX x4
Gallade x1
Kirlia x3
Ralts x4
Tapu Lele GX x3
Eevee x2
Sylveon GX x2
Diancie x2

Supporters - 13

Sycamore x4
N x4
Guzma x3
Brigette x1
Skyla x1

Items - 13

Ultra Ball x4
Rare Candy x3
Float Stone x3
Field Blower x2
Professor's Letter x1

Energy - 13

DCE x4
Fairy x9

This deck still offers full throttle Gardevoir GX with 4 in the deck and an out to Alolan Ninetales BUS with Gallade. Because of Sylveon GX, slashing Skyla and Professor's letter to 1 is perfectly okay - they're one ofs per game anyway, plus Sylveon can find DCE and fairy energy which is even better than either of them, given the right circumstances.

3 Kirlia 3 rare candy is kept because you want Diancie to remain a viable option. Dropping to 2 Kirlia makes Diancie less of a natural option. Rare candy can be found with Sylveon or Skyla, so keeping 3 is fine and all of your options stay viable.

This might be what I play around with for a while.

 

[JDA]

Feel free to give it a try! Those 2 Diance could also be 1 additional Eevee and Sylveon GX. At which point I still believe that this set up is superior to any Diance set up that still requires you to have the right Pokemon on the bench at the right time and preferably turn 1-2, with the 2 Diance, 4 Ralts, 3 Tapu Lele and 2 Eevee it's actually not that likely to open up with Diance in the right place at the right time. Chances are higher you will have your Ralts or Lele there.

I personally think that 2 Fairy Garden are more ideal as Float Stones. You run 3 Guzma, you have the means to find the Fairy Garden early. Which means switching in and out should be relatively easy to do. I don't think the 1-off Skyla is a bad thing but if you want to run more tutors I still believe that Magical Ribbon allows you to do that. In fact it even allows you to do that extremely well.

Though without doubt I think both version of the deck you posted have what it takes to be tested versus other competitive decks. I'd also consider playing the Xerneas/Break to see how you like the accelerating part of Gardevoir GX.

 

[Adi]

I understand running both Sylveon GX and Diancie may seem like the better option, but both of them are less situational then people make them out to be. First of all you said "If your opponent seems to be playing conservatively or passing on dead draws, you can expect him/her to N", but that's not really true. If they are doing that most likely they don't have draw support or their hand is too good to N away. Most players care less about disrupting you, and setting their own strategy up in the early stages of the game. Unless of course they run a mill deck, Quad Sylveon GX, etc. Back to my original point, you will not know if they have a N in their hand unless they are really obvious about it like if they played Skyla last turn to get an N, or if they ultra balled to pull a Tapu Lele GX the turn before, etc. So my point is you will not know which pokemon is better for different situations. This is because the only difference between Sylveon GX and Diancie when it comes to setting up Gardevoir GX turn 2 is if your opponent has the N. Also if you find you like Diancie more than Sylveon GX when it comes to setting up effectively I wouldn't run the Sylveon GX in the deck. It's GX attack and regular attack aren't good enough to justify a spot in the deck. It's GX attack is only a plus if you plan to run it for setup. The same goes vice versa if you prefer Sylveon GX. Also I still think you should cut down the Tapu Lele GX to 2, you do not want that high of odds of starting with a Tapu Lele GX. I have playtested with 2 and 3 Tapu Lele's in different decks, and 2 has always been the better number. I hope this helps.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

Thank you for sharing this video. It was very insightful.

Things I agree upon greatly - attaching a float stone instead of Choice band and completely skipping fairy garden. The logic makes a ton of sense with how Gardy GX works, and Fairy Garden requires you to have fairy energy attached in order to retreat for "free," so it loses speed in those regards. Both Float Stone and Fairy Garden are susceptible to Field Blower, but Fairy Garden might get bopped by another Stadium card and/or benefit your opponent in the mirror match, making it effectively not as good as float stones.

Things I dislike - The 2 Lillies don't really seem to contribute that much to be taking up 2 slots. If he's rocking 4x Gardy GX, I would even think Olivia is a better consideration.

I'm totally game with running 4x Gardy GX, but I'm not game with completely removing Gallade. It's interesting that he focuses on the concept of your win condition, but I think he also needs to consider the deck's lose condition as well. Call me biased because I want to play both Gardy GX and Alolan Ninetales GX, but deck lists like this are the reason why I run 2 BUS Alolan Ninetales in that deck. If I have 1 in active and 1 in bench and literally nothing else after the rest of my Mons were KO'd and 1-2 prizes are still left, a full Gardy GX build like this basically just loses by default (since you can't Guzma anything), and there's nothing Kirlia or Diance/Sylveon/Vulpix can do about it. You must run Gallade simply because Alolan Ninetales exists. The circumstance is kind of rare, but the fact that a pure GX deck can completely lose to just 2 BUS Alolan Ninetales means that you need an out. You can spare 1 out of 60 cards to prevent from getting locked out.

I basically took his decklist and did -2 Lillie for +1 Gallade and +1 Professor's Letter.

I do still want to try the Sylveon GX build at a 2/2 line though, which would just be -2 Diancie and -1/1 Remoraid/Octillery line.

Deck building is literally endless isn't it.

I agree about having a way to deal with BUS Ninetales. That concern was actually brought up in the comments section of that video I posted and Andrew addressed those concerns. He said that you could remove the 1-1 Octillery line and put in Oranguru if you're worried about Ninetales. That would not only free up a spot in the deck, you could also use Oranguru to KO the Ninetales. If Ninetales has 3 energy on it (which is what it's only attack costs), Oranguru is hitting it for 120 which is a KO. Even if it takes two hits, Ninetales can't OHKO Oranguru so you're going to knock it out next turn anyways. With 1-2 Gardevoir on the field, it's relatively easy to get three energy on the Oranguru for it's attack, as long as you have the energy in your hand to accelerate. Oranguru also has the benefit of being a basic so it's quick to get on the bench and you still get some draw power from it. Not as good as Octillery's draw power, but still.

I understand wanting to play Gallade though. I do recommend 4 Gardevoir from my play testing. You want to get out as many as you can so running a 4-3-4 line allows you to do just that. When I was only running 3, I found myself having trouble when one was prized or when one was knocked out. Since running 4, I can notice the difference. I can discard a Gardevoir with Sycamore and not worry about it quite as much. Not that I want to discard Gardevoir, but sometimes it's unavoidable unless you want to sit there stagnant for a turn.

I'm still undecided on the 2 Lillie myself. I understand the reasoning. With no VS Seeker, you might have turns where you don't want to Sycamore a key Supporter out of your hand, so Lillie can still get you some draw power without having to discard anything. Plus, draw support is never a bad thing. I haven't used Lillie much from my play testing though.

After reading through this thread, I am interested in trying out Sylveon. I will say that Diance has been amazing for me so far. I see the benefits of Sylveon though.

And I know right! There really are endless ways to deck build.

 

[Duo]

I understand running both Sylveon GX and Diancie may seem like the better option, but both of them are less situational then people make them out to be. First of all you said "If your opponent seems to be playing conservatively or passing on dead draws, you can expect him/her to N", but that's not really true. If they are doing that most likely they don't have draw support or their hand is too good to N away. Most players care less about disrupting you, and setting their own strategy up in the early stages of the game. Unless of course they run a mill deck, Quad Sylveon GX, etc. Back to my original point, you will not know if they have a N in their hand unless they are really obvious about it like if they played Skyla last turn to get an N, or if they ultra balled to pull a Tapu Lele GX the turn before, etc. So my point is you will not know which pokemon is better for different situations. This is because the only difference between Sylveon GX and Diancie when it comes to setting up Gardevoir GX turn 2 is if your opponent has the N. Also if you find you like Diancie more than Sylveon GX when it comes to setting up effectively I wouldn't run the Sylveon GX in the deck. It's GX attack and regular attack aren't good enough to justify a spot in the deck. It's GX attack is only a plus if you plan to run it for setup. The same goes vice versa if you prefer Sylveon GX. Also I still think you should cut down the Tapu Lele GX to 2, you do not want that high of odds of starting with a Tapu Lele GX. I have playtested with 2 and 3 Tapu Lele's in different decks, and 2 has always been the better number. I hope this helps.

I understand your comments about N, but N is just one of the contributing factors. I lack practical experience and everything I'm saying up to this point is simply theorycraft, so forgive me for making bad assumptions. For me, the main contributing factor is the ability to branch out your plays and have as much freedom as possible with molding your field and hand, and the only reason why I'm so adamant on trying this build is because the 1/1 Octillery line and 2 Lillie don't seem like they contribute more than adding in the option of Sylveon, which has way more synergy and a much higher play ceiling than just hoping you draw into your cards. At this point, the primary arguments from my perspective looking specifically at Andrew's deck list in the video is that 2 Lillie's seem ineffective, and the Octillery line is iffy. Since I feel that I'm replacing optional cards with better optional cards, I see it as a better build. If I were replacing Gardevoir GXs and Ultra Balls with Sylveon GXs, there'd be a problem. At this point I'm just waiting for all my cards to get in so I can actually go experiment locally.

I agree about having a way to deal with BUS Ninetales. That concern was actually brought up in the comments section of that video I posted and Andrew addressed those concerns. He said that you could remove the 1-1 Octillery line and put in Oranguru if you're worried about Ninetales. That would not only free up a spot in the deck, you could also use Oranguru to KO the Ninetales. If Ninetales has 3 energy on it (which is what it's only attack costs), Oranguru is hitting it for 120 which is a KO. Even if it takes two hits, Ninetales can't OHKO Oranguru so you're going to knock it out next turn anyways. With 1-2 Gardevoir on the field, it's relatively easy to get three energy on the Oranguru for it's attack, as long as you have the energy in your hand to accelerate. Oranguru also has the benefit of being a basic so it's quick to get on the bench and you still get some draw power from it. Not as good as Octillery's draw power, but still.

I understand wanting to play Gallade though. I do recommend 4 Gardevoir from my play testing. You want to get out as many as you can so running a 4-3-4 line allows you to do just that. When I was only running 3, I found myself having trouble when one was prized or when one was knocked out. Since running 4, I can notice the difference. I can discard a Gardevoir with Sycamore and not worry about it quite as much. Not that I want to discard Gardevoir, but sometimes it's unavoidable unless you want to sit there stagnant for a turn.

I'm still undecided on the 2 Lillie myself. I understand the reasoning. With no VS Seeker, you might have turns where you don't want to Sycamore a key Supporter out of your hand, so Lillie can still get you some draw power without having to discard anything. Plus, draw support is never a bad thing. I haven't used Lillie much from my play testing though.

After reading through this thread, I am interested in trying out Sylveon. I will say that Diance has been amazing for me so far. I see the benefits of Sylveon though.

And I know right! There really are endless ways to deck build.

I have yet to figure out how to play with BUS Alolan Ninetales properly, but currently the way I'm thinking about it is that I would never attach 3 energy if I only have a single one available to play. Having 1 Alolan Ninetales is mostly for walling your opponent's best GX/EX attacker for a turn while you set up for a response and hope they don't have Guzma immediately. It takes having 2 for it to be worth committing energy and swinging for the lock. Because of this, I think Gallade is better because the OHKO doesn't depend on whether or not my opponent attached 3 energy to their Alolan Ninetales. If I see the first Alolan Ninetales hit the board and feel threatened by it, I'd go Gallade and KO it for a 1 - 1 prize exchange (I expect Gallade to die soon after), but then the lock is broken for the rest of the game and you're not waiting for the right conditions. You make it the right conditions yourself.

To be honest with you, I've been thinking about playing 3 Sycamore/1 Lillie split in all of my decks because of the whole issue of discarding, but since running only 1 means you're never going to draw her, and rarely is Lele -> Lillie the most optimal supporter usage for a turn, it seems like a waste. If dropping to 3 Sycamore, it's to make space for more Pokemon/Items/Energy, or I guess a utility supporter such as Acerola (I still want to experiment with 1 Acerola in every deck I play.) Specifically in the context of Gardevoir GX, because you have the GX attack available to you, I don't think 4 Sycamore can hurt the deck at all. And if you're playing out your full hand before you Sycamore, then drawing 7 is better than drawing 6 off of Lillie, and unless you're running 4 Lillie, you should never expect to turn 1, play full hand, draw 8.

I will be testing out -1 Sycamore +1 Acerola since Sycamore is not the primary way for Gardevoir GX to get its core cards, and you never play 4 in a game anyway (or at least you never play 4 in any game I've ever watched on Youtube). Acerola will take practical testing to figure out if she has a strong enough influence in the circumstances you would use her in. I think 2 hit KOs are common enough to make the recovery from Acerola an effective play. I currently see Acerola as a counter to Guzma and a way to reorganize your bench space.

 

[Adi]

I used to do the same thing you are doing now, throwing a lot of good cards and different strategies together. I learned though that you can't just throw two different decks together. Now these aren't different decks, but you are trying to throw two different variants of the same deck together. This would be like if you made a Greninja Break deck that ran Talonflame and Staryu in the same deck. Now they could work together, but they are just better apart. Even Andrew Mahone would probably agree on the fact that this deck should run one setup pokemon. He naturally thinks the Diancie build is better, but he would most likely agree on the fact that Diancie/Gardevoir GX and Sylveon GX/Gardevoir GX runs smoother then Diancie/Sylveon GX/Gardevoir GX. You of course have the right to test your decklist out, and I hope it does well, but I personally think you should choose between Diancie and Sylveon GX. Months down the road your decklist could become the next Seismatoad EX or Nightmarch deck, but right now I don't see it having much potential in competitive play. I hope this helps.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I understand your comments about N, but N is just one of the contributing factors. I lack practical experience and everything I'm saying up to this point is simply theorycraft, so forgive me for making bad assumptions. For me, the main contributing factor is the ability to branch out your plays and have as much freedom as possible with molding your field and hand, and the only reason why I'm so adamant on trying this build is because the 1/1 Octillery line and 2 Lillie don't seem like they contribute more than adding in the option of Sylveon, which has way more synergy and a much higher play ceiling than just hoping you draw into your cards. At this point, the primary arguments from my perspective looking specifically at Andrew's deck list in the video is that 2 Lillie's seem ineffective, and the Octillery line is iffy. Since I feel that I'm replacing optional cards with better optional cards, I see it as a better build. If I were replacing Gardevoir GXs and Ultra Balls with Sylveon GXs, there'd be a problem. At this point I'm just waiting for all my cards to get in so I can actually go experiment locally.



I have yet to figure out how to play with BUS Alolan Ninetales properly, but currently the way I'm thinking about it is that I would never attach 3 energy if I only have a single one available to play. Having 1 Alolan Ninetales is mostly for walling your opponent's best GX/EX attacker for a turn while you set up for a response and hope they don't have Guzma immediately. It takes having 2 for it to be worth committing energy and swinging for the lock. Because of this, I think Gallade is better because the OHKO doesn't depend on whether or not my opponent attached 3 energy to their Alolan Ninetales. If I see the first Alolan Ninetales hit the board and feel threatened by it, I'd go Gallade and KO it for a 1 - 1 prize exchange (I expect Gallade to die soon after), but then the lock is broken for the rest of the game and you're not waiting for the right conditions. You make it the right conditions yourself.

To be honest with you, I've been thinking about playing 3 Sycamore/1 Lillie split in all of my decks because of the whole issue of discarding, but since running only 1 means you're never going to draw her, and rarely is Lele -> Lillie the most optimal supporter usage for a turn, it seems like a waste. If dropping to 3 Sycamore, it's to make space for more Pokemon/Items/Energy, or I guess a utility supporter such as Acerola (I still want to experiment with 1 Acerola in every deck I play.) Specifically in the context of Gardevoir GX, because you have the GX attack available to you, I don't think 4 Sycamore can hurt the deck at all. And if you're playing out your full hand before you Sycamore, then drawing 7 is better than drawing 6 off of Lillie, and unless you're running 4 Lillie, you should never expect to turn 1, play full hand, draw 8.

I will be testing out -1 Sycamore +1 Acerola since Sycamore is not the primary way for Gardevoir GX to get its core cards, and you never play 4 in a game anyway (or at least you never play 4 in any game I've ever watched on Youtube). Acerola will take practical testing to figure out if she has a strong enough influence in the circumstances you would use her in. I think 2 hit KOs are common enough to make the recovery from Acerola an effective play. I currently see Acerola as a counter to Guzma.

I just haven't had a game yet where I've thought to myself, "I'd rather get a Gallade out instead of another Gardevoir." I always want to get as many Gardevoir on the field as I can. If my opponent is just going to put a Ninetales in the active to stall while building up a GX on the bench, I'm going to focus on getting Guzma. If they start putting energies on the Ninetales, I'm going to focus on getting Oranguru ready. Like I said, I understand wanting to run Gallade but I just haven't seen the need for it so far. That could change.

I still recommend 4 Sycamore. I know you're not going to usually use all 4 every game, but you run 4 so you give yourself the best possible chance to draw into it. Lele helps, but I'd rather use Lele to grab Supporters like Brigette, Guzma, and Skyla. I've been running Acerola in my deck and I like it. It's actually saved me a few games. Because I run such a thick Gardevoir line. I usually have a Ralts or Kirlia on my bench. I've been able to Acerola my damaged Gardevoir, evolve it back onto the bench same turn, and then use the ability to stack energy back on it. I don't know if I'd consider it a necessary card in the deck, but if you have an open spot, it's worth a try.

 

[Duo]

I used to do the same thing you are doing now, throwing a lot of good cards and different strategies together. I learned though that you can't just throw two different decks together. Now these aren't different decks, but you are trying to throw two different variants of the same deck together. This would be like if you made a Greninja Break deck that ran Talonflame and Staryu in the same deck. Now they could work together, but they are just better apart. Even Andrew Mahone would probably agree on the fact that this deck should run one setup pokemon. He naturally thinks the Diancie build is better, but he would most likely agree on the fact that Diancie/Gardevoir GX and Sylveon GX/Gardevoir GX runs smoother then Diancie/Sylveon GX/Gardevoir GX. You of course have the right to test your decklist out, and I hope it does well, but I personally think you should choose between Diancie and Sylveon GX. Months down the road your decklist could become the next Seismatoad EX or Nightmarch deck, but right now I don't see it having much potential in competitive play. I hope this helps.

I'd like to emphasize that I'm not saying that the deck lists I'm throwing together are decks that I expect to be the best. I just think they're decks worth trying out and I enjoy trying to reason things out so I can see if they prove true later. Especially since I'm a new player, this is the best time for me to learn what works and what doesn't, preferably first hand. I'm just the kind of person who doesn't like to count out options until I've personally tried it. I am expecting to fall back to one or the other, and more so Diancie than Sylveon GX, and I will be trying out Lillie despite everything I've said about her.

I just haven't had a game yet where I've thought to myself, "I'd rather get a Gallade out instead of another Gardevoir." I always want to get as many Gardevoir on the field as I can. If my opponent is just going to put a Ninetales in the active to stall while building up a GX on the bench, I'm going to focus on getting Guzma. If they start putting energies on the Ninetales, I'm going to focus on getting Oranguru ready. Like I said, I understand wanting to run Gallade but I just haven't seen the need for it so far. That could change.

I still recommend 4 Sycamore. I know you're not going to usually use all 4 every game, but you run 4 so you give yourself the best possible chance to draw into it. Lele helps, but I'd rather use Lele to grab Supporters like Brigette, Guzma, and Skyla. I've been running Acerola in my deck and I like it. It's actually saved me a few games. Because I run such a thick Gardevoir line. I usually have a Ralts or Kirlia on my bench. I've been able to Acerola my damaged Gardevoir, evolve it back onto the bench same turn, and then use the ability to stack energy back on it. I don't know if I'd consider it a necessary card in the deck, but if you have an open spot, it's worth a try.

Those are all fair points. I've been debating between 1 or 2 Alolan Ninetales in my deck just because I don't think it is practically capable of creating the game lock or the unbeatable wall that some people think its ability offers even if I do play 2, in which case I'd play something like Glaceon EX in place of the 2nd copy to protect against the Metagross GX (metang).

In any case, I'm probably going to fall silent for a little while on this thread until I actually get some games in. I think I can't really contribute much more, but I will continue to read what other people say.

Thanks again for participating in the discussion everyone.

 

[Alphahitman4]

Gallade would OHKO dark turbo deck monsters but other than that there aren't many times where gallade surpasses gardevoir gx.

 

[JDA]

Gallade would OHKO dark turbo deck monsters but other than that there aren't many times where gallade surpasses gardevoir gx.

Well... First of let me say that I think Gallade is just the easiest inclusion because it fits the evolution line, meaning that unlike many effective attackers it only thakes up 1 slot. In addition there will also be quite some games where Gallade isn't played or taken at all. If anything it's what I consider to be a silver bullet.
However again one of the reasons as to why strategies like that work out well would be because of Magical Ribbon. You can search for him, which combined with a Ralts on bench, Rare Candy and other combinations like Fairy Garden can be set up respectfully quick. The beauty of it is that Gallade is an ideal awnser into Drampa GX, Tauros GX and counters like Alolan Ninetales. The fact that he can 1HKO all of those Pokemon for a mere DCE or two Fairy Energy is just fantastic.

With all these examples I can only highlight again why I believe Sylveon GX is so incredible for this deck as it requires the set up as initially asked for. Magical Ribbon is borderline GX levels of attacks. I am fully aware it does no damage but searching 3 cards vs 5 (Metagross GX attack) or vs drawing up to 10 (Drampa GX attack) actually in reality isn't so much worse. Because the fact remains that usually out of those 5 to 10 cards your looking for 3 specific ones. A Supporter, a boardstate changer and your (main) Pokemon plan. The list of what those cards can be in this deck is amazing.

To me Sylveon GX is the effective replacement for Skyla, is the effective replacement for Diance and the only reason as to why I personally would include a 2-2 or even 4-2 line of Xerneas has to do with the fact that you can then again combine the best trifecta Pokemon tcg has to offer. In the form of Beatdown, Excelleration and Control with respectively Gardevoir GX, Xerneas (BREAK) and Sylveon GX.
If there are some who deem Plea GX a poor attack I can only say test before you write that down. There is very little that is as game breaking as a Guzma and Plea GX. Funfact, Sylveon GX can do that consistently from turn 2 and on (Magical Ribbon for Tapu Lele/Guzma, DCE and whatever you feel is needed to deal with your opponents last hope).