Gengarite Suspected for Complete Ban

Chaos Jackal

Legend of the Past
Member
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ect-test-in-the-shadows-read-post-71.3513127/

Now, I know that most of you, unlike me, don't play Ubers. However, this is a special case, which is why I made a separate thread to discuss. Here we're talking of the potential ban of a Pokemon (OK, item, but really a Pokemon) from the game as a whole. Up until now, all the bans in Ubers (Swagger, Moody) have been strategies that exploited luck rather than skill and were thus deemed unhealthy for the game. Gengarite, however, is a different story. Here we're not talking luck and coin flips, here we're talking of a belief that Mega Gengar is so absurdly powerful that it surpasses even Ubers.
What are your thoughts on this?
 
Shadow Tag has always been absurd, but until gen 5 we only had it on Wobbuffet, and we all know how well he can sweep teams. Gothitelle getting it shook things up, but he didn't really dominate OU like people were thinking he would.

Gengar is the complete opposite of Wobbuffet and Gothitelle - huge speed, enormous power, and a titanic movepool. All you have to do is bring him in at the right time and something on your opponent's side dies, and there's nothing they can do about it.

I wouldn't care if Gengarite was banned. You'll still see it in official battles.
 
Can't comment on Mega Gengar itself, but I guess it raises interesting questions regarding banning philosophy.

If ubers is not a metagame where all Pokemon are allowed, then you would be banning things to force a more stable/enjoyable metagame. How, then, does it distinguish itself from the standard tier? What is the difference between an ideal ubers metagame and an ideal standard metagame? Why is the ubers tier not standard play to begin with?
 
Ubers is originally a banlist, but it is also a tier. One factor that separates it from the standard tiers is that it is not defined by usage; A pokemon will not drop out of Ubers because it is under-used in Ubers, and a pokemon will not rise to Ubers because it is over-used in OU. It is entirely decided by community vote.

That said, Smogon has already banned several things from Ubers already (moody, OHKO moves, etc.). It's not meant to be a tier without bans entirely. It may function as a banlist for OU, but that doesn't mean it cannot have rules.

One thing that needs to be made clear is that they are not proposing to ban a pokemon entirely. They are proposing to ban Gengarite -- an item. Mega stones and evolutions are more accurately described as single sets (no different than another set running, say, life orb over Gengarite). Even when compared to regular form differences (such as Shaymin-Sky vs. Shaymin-Land or Altered Forme Giratina vs. Origin Forme Giratine) they have the function of taking a turn to come into effect, which is a critical difference when abilities like Shadow Tag don't work until the turn AFTER you Mega-evolve.

Even then, many of the community members so-far seem to be more concerned with Shadow Tag itself over Gengarite or Mega-Gengar. Proposing to ban the ability from Ubers (although the current nature of the suspect test requires that Gengarite be banned first, and then a second suspect test be raised for Shadow Tag).

It is critical to note that if Shadow Tag were banned from Ubers this ban would not apply to OU, UU, and below. The reason? Ubers is not a standard tier. In the same way that bans in Singles don't necessarily apply to doubles, a ban in Ubers won't necessarily (although it may) drop down to the standard tiers.
 
Bacon, you don't guess, you know. That's a great post you have there and ultimately the embodiment of just how many questions are raised by this proposal.

Hugendugen said:
Proponents of the ban argue that it limits the teambuilding process and is ultimately uncompetitive, while opponents argue either that we should never ban Pokemon or forms from Ubers or that Mega Gengar simply isn't uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban. There is a precedent for removing aspects of the metagame that are almost entirely luck based or incredibly uncompetitive, for instance the OHKO, Moody and Swagger Clauses. The aim of this suspect test is to gauge both whether we are comfortable removing a Pokemon form entirely and then whether Gengarite or Shadow Tag as a whole in fact are sufficiently uncompetitive.
This paragraph sums up what people think and what this tests the playerbase on. I applaud Smogon for pushing boundaries and when it comes to banning, but all in all it does come out as somewhat hypocritical if you assess the mindset of the elite players. Smogon's philosophy has always been to create a stable metagame, but Ubers has been by far a tier above the rest and out of the jurisdiction of the typical bans. There's a certain degree of freedom in the tier where gods fight gods and mortals (OU) often struggle to keep up, as if Ubers is a sanctum. It also holds true to its own definition of which Pokémon reside in it (as Auride mentioned, by community vote). Our test is if we want to bring such a giant gradually down to level with the rest of them and make it the new OU hypothetically. Like bacon has said, this is a very controversial topic, and the test isn't so much about Mega Gengar as it is about ethics and philosophy.

Mega Gengar was broken in OU, yes, and he certainly holds his own in Ubers by the look of it. The magnitude of Gengar's trial is in essence whether we want to change views and handle Ubers as another tier subject to the traditional ban list or let it exist as an independently working entity with its own restrictions as it always has. By virtue, Ubers has been an overcentralizing, different metagame and entity, and the majority have been fine with that, simply eliminating what we consider "luck-based"; do we want to reconsider? Now that the question is upon us, we either attack the problem - Shadow Tag - or let it be and cherish the current special qualities of this tier. Already, there's intense debate over whether Ubers is a tier renowned for balance and subject to the term "uncompetitive" just as much as OU or is a tier for uniqueness and the challenge of fighting with titans.

tl;dr, this is a controversial topic indeed, and one that raises a ton of ethical questions. It's more about that than Mega Gengar or Shadow Tag however, and if you are focusing solely on that (hey, Gothitelle), you are missing the big picture.
 
Auride said:
That said, Smogon has already banned several things from Ubers already (moody, OHKO moves, etc.). It's not meant to be a tier without bans entirely. It may function as a banlist for OU, but that doesn't mean it cannot have rules.

I'd like to point out that those "bans" in Ubers are those items/abilities that are totally uncompetitive, fully exploiting the luck factor with little to no connection to the strategy factor.

There are two questions stemming from this suspect test. The first applies to Ubers as a metagame, and is whether a Pokemon with the speed, power, and movepool of (Mega) Gengar combined with what is probably the best ability in the game is uncompetitive or not (since only things deemed uncompetitive have been removed from Ubers). The second applies to Ubers as a banlist, and how it functions; Mega Stones are different than any other item before them, and since they can change (in cases completely rearrange) stats and abilities (therefore changing their usefulness and sets), one can argue that a Mega Pokemon is a Pokemon on its own to some extent, thus raising the question of whether should a Pokemon be completely removed from all metagames.

Ubers isn't a tier in the same sense that OU is. While certain aspects of the game that have no competitive meaning whatsoever, like winning because of a 30% to OHKO any foe, everything else in Ubers is there because it is too centralizing and broken for OU. Ubers doesn't follow the typical rules of other tiers, as there is nothing that can be called broken in the place where all the broken in the world reside. This latest suspect test kinda defeats the purpose of Ubers, since Shadow Tag isn't a luck-based ability, therefore removing it (or Gengarite) undermines the meaning of Ubers.
 
I agree with this. Gengar is a Pokemon I always had felt got undeserved credit. He was INSANELY overpowered in Gen 2, especially Morty's Gengar, since it had Mean Look, Hypnosis, Dream Eater, Shadow, and stats that were at least 30% higher than any of your Pokemon at the time.

But a Gengar with Shadow Tag? That's just too far. Being able to lock an Opponent with type disadvantage means that you're essentialy getting a free kill. Gengar was already so strong, but being able to get a free knockout with one is just cruel. There is no justification for it.
 
bacon said:
Can't comment on Mega Gengar itself, but I guess it raises interesting questions regarding banning philosophy.

If ubers is not a metagame where all Pokemon are allowed, then you would be banning things to force a more stable/enjoyable metagame. How, then, does it distinguish itself from the standard tier? What is the difference between an ideal ubers metagame and an ideal standard metagame? Why is the ubers tier not standard play to begin with?

Who said all Pokemon are allowed in Ubers? Who made that rule? Ubers is simply used to send Pokemon/abilities/items deemed too game breaking for the lower tiers to something more manageable, thus, Ubers in itself is a tier, full of offensive and defensive behemoths, were things (currently, other then possibly Gengarite) can't really be overpowering, because everything else around is pretty much just as powerful. The only reason we haven't seen anything banned from Ubers is because nothing has matched the criteria for being game changing until this recent item.
 
I have not done competitive battling since the very beginning of XY, and even then I was pretty awful compared to my Gen IV/V standard. However, the idea of something being too overpowered for Ubers is baffling to me. The tier has forever been a banlist for OU, with the only "banned" moves/abilities/etc. being the luck based ones (evasion tactics, OHKO, Moody, etc). I've always seen Ubers as a tier with the cliche philosophy "if you can't beat em, join em." I remember a time where well over 50% of teams had a Kyogre on them, something that would be unheard of in any other tier. I struggle to believe that Mega Gengar is that overpowered where the Ubers metagame couldn't handle it, but I will definitely try to do some suspect testing just because this prospect is so interesting.
 
Equinox said:
Who said all Pokemon are allowed in Ubers? Who made that rule? Ubers is simply used to send Pokemon/abilities/items deemed too game breaking for the lower tiers to something more manageable, thus, Ubers in itself is a tier, full of offensive and defensive behemoths, were things (currently, other then possibly Gengarite) can't really be overpowering, because everything else around is pretty much just as powerful. The only reason we haven't seen anything banned from Ubers is because nothing has matched the criteria for being game changing until this recent item.

Well nobody said it, but it's so far been the unofficial definition of the uber tier given that this is the first time in 6 generations a Pokemon has been considered for a ban (technically an item, but given how differently Mega Gengar plays to the vanilla form it's just semantics imo).

Basically I wanted to steer the discussion towards how we should define ubers to begin with and how it should be treated, because you have to do that first before even talking about whether or not Gengarite is eligible for a ban.
 
bacon said:
Equinox said:
Who said all Pokemon are allowed in Ubers? Who made that rule? Ubers is simply used to send Pokemon/abilities/items deemed too game breaking for the lower tiers to something more manageable, thus, Ubers in itself is a tier, full of offensive and defensive behemoths, were things (currently, other then possibly Gengarite) can't really be overpowering, because everything else around is pretty much just as powerful. The only reason we haven't seen anything banned from Ubers is because nothing has matched the criteria for being game changing until this recent item.

Well nobody said it, but it's so far been the unofficial definition of the uber tier given that this is the first time in 6 generations a Pokemon has been considered for a ban (technically an item, but given how differently Mega Gengar plays to the vanilla form it's just semantics imo).

Basically I wanted to steer the discussion towards how we should define ubers to begin with and how it should be treated, because you have to do that first before even talking about whether or not Gengarite is eligible for a ban.

Well, as stated earlier it's its' own tier -- one where the pokemon / items go should they be too much for the lower tiers, now that, is simple, but what happens when you have a tier where the gods play? I can't speak too much on my own experience as I haven't played a lot of Ubers recently, but honestly I can see the logic in making a banlist no matter how small. If a tier runs into a problem with something problematic, then it's wise to get rid of it. I'm sorry if I missed your point, I don't have an actual opinion either on the Gengarite ban, but even in a tier of gods, the mold can be broken, it's just no one has seen anything yet because it hasn't happened before.
 
I have played Ubers for a very long time. I don't feel Mega Gengar is really game breaking in Ubers. Ubers is just a ban list from standard play; it wasn't ever meant to be balanced anyway. This was what the philosophy of Ubers was many years ago when I first started. Unlike Swagger, it actually is competitive. Swagger is completely luck based.

Mega Gengar may have one of the best abilities in the game, however, it also has its drawbacks. Its defenses are nothing to spectacular, especially considering the average power of Pokemon in Ubers. Let's face it, you aren't really going to fully EV Mega Gengar to be defensive because there are far better Pokemon for that. It loses to several common Pokemon one on one, including Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, and Yveltal.

Personally I have never struggled to defeat Mega Gengar. If a team is assembled properly and you play well, there should be no reason you struggle against it.
 
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