Ghetsis, Hex Maniac, and More Banned from Expanded Format!

Unlike Ghetsis or Archeops, Safe Guard or Intimidating Mane doesn't single handily shut down or heavily punish entire deck arch types by just existing

There is a difference between "I have to tech 1-2 cards to deal with a counter to my deck" and "I auto lose because I chose to play this kind of deck and my opponent runs x card". Pretty much any deck can tech 1-2 cards with out issue.
 
CrownAxe said:
Unlike Ghetsis or Archeops, Safe Guard or Intimidating Mane doesn't single handily shut down or heavily punish entire deck arch types by just existing

There is a difference between "I have to tech 1-2 cards to deal with a counter to my deck" and "I auto lose because I chose to play this kind of deck and my opponent runs x card". Pretty much any deck can tech 1-2 cards with out issue.
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So you are saying every arcetype should be viable and every deck type should be viable?

edit: basically no hard counters should exist for any type of card.
 
orthusaku said:
So you are saying every arcetype should be viable and every deck type should be viable?
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Don't try to straw man me here. Archeops was a problem because any deck could splash Archeops + Maxie's pretty easily meaning decks using evolutions had few decks it could actually be played against because every deck could just tech a card that turns your deck off. As a result there was no point in even considering evolutions as a deck

Ghetsis in this perspective is not as extreme as Archeops is but there are decks that are very item heavy because that's how the deck works (like Night March, Rotom Box, etc.) and would run into basically the same issue. If i choose to play a deck who's whole point is being item heavy and my opponent splashes ghetsis then I have a very low chance of winning just because my opponent teched a card that can be ran in every deck without issue.

Safe Guard and Imtidating Mane aren't like this at all. They aren't easily splashed into ever deck, it's very easy to tech cards that can deal with them, and there are even ways to deal with them outside of teching (such as just gusting around it).

And this is still on top of the fact that even if everyone does play lower item counts, every deck still plays items so every deck still has a chance of randomly having a hand that can get Ghetsis'ed and lose instantly
 
Okay, I'm kind of lost here. What is/was "LonZoro" since I can't find a specific decklist anywhere?
 
CrownAxe said:
Don't try to straw man me here. Archeops was a problem because any deck could splash Archeops + Maxie's pretty easily meaning decks using evolutions had few decks it could actually be played against because every deck could just tech a card that turns your deck off. As a result there was no point in even considering evolutions as a deck

Ghetsis in this perspective is not as extreme as Archeops is but there are decks that are very item heavy because that's how the deck works (like Night March, Rotom Box, etc.) and would run into basically the same issue. If i choose to play a deck who's whole point is being item heavy and my opponent splashes ghetsis then I have a very low chance of winning just because my opponent teched a card that can be ran in every deck without issue.

Safe Guard and Imtidating Mane aren't like this at all. They aren't easily splashed into ever deck, it's very easy to tech cards that can deal with them, and there are even ways to deal with them outside of teching (such as just gusting around it).

And this is still on top of the fact that even if everyone does play lower item counts, every deck still plays items so every deck still has a chance of randomly having a hand that can get Ghetsis'ed and lose instantly
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But that doesn't make sense to me. If ghetsis is such a problem that it needed to be banned, it would have been banned sooner not 5 years after its release.

I say that because 5 years is basically an eternity for TCGs. Thats like 25% of the games life span
 
orthusaku said:
But that doesn't make sense to me. If ghetsis is such a problem that it needed to be banned, it would have been banned sooner not 5 years after its release.

I say that because 5 years is basically an eternity for TCGs. Thats like 25% of the games life span
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Ghetsis wasn’t an issue for a long time. Then Zoro cane and it instantly got sooooo much better. Zoro loves one card techs, and Ghetsis is pretty crazy at being one. Ghetsis is one of the most powerful T1 plays because it can outright win games on T1.

Attix said:
Okay, I'm kind of lost here. What is/was "LonZoro" since I can't find a specific decklist anywhere?
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LonZoro is Zoroark/Exeggcute.
 
Latte1504 said:
Ghetsis wasn’t an issue for a long time. Then Zoro cane and it instantly got sooooo much better. Zoro loves one card techs, and Ghetsis is pretty crazy at being one. Ghetsis is one of the most powerful T1 plays because it can outright win games on T1.


LonZoro is Zoroark/Exeggcute.
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So the problem is zoroark not ghetsis at least that is how i'm understanding it

Please understand, I want to get to the core of this, no moving goal posts find what caused this cards to be an issue, and try and figure out why it wasn't targeted but those cards were.
 
orthusaku said:
So the problem is zoroark not ghetsis at least that is how i'm understanding it

Please understand, I want to get to the core of this, no moving goal posts find what caused this cards to be an issue, and try and figure out why it wasn't targeted but those cards were.
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Zoroark is the issue. But, it wouldn’t be if it didn’t have its wealth of tools. Banning Hex, Puzzle, and Ghetsis are all nerds to Zoro. Ghetsis has universal application however. So Zoro is the problem, but Ghetsis is also a problem in and of itself. Basically, even if Zoro wasn’t so good, Ghetsis should still be banned.
 
orthusaku said:
But that doesn't make sense to me. If ghetsis is such a problem that it needed to be banned, it would have been banned sooner not 5 years after its release.

I say that because 5 years is basically an eternity for TCGs. Thats like 25% of the games life span
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That' doesn't prove anything . It getting banned now proves that TPCi has realized it's a problem now, not that it wasn't a problem worthy of banning until now

TPCi released Lysandre's Trump Card and did not ban it for several months while also banned Shiftry instead of FoGP, only to realize their mistake and reverse it 2 years later. TPCi is not infallible and doesn't know everything thing about their game perfectly.
 
Latte1504 said:
Zoroark is the issue. But, it wouldn’t be if it didn’t have its wealth of tools. Banning Hex, Puzzle, and Ghetsis are all nerds to Zoro. Ghetsis has universal application however. So Zoro is the problem, but Ghetsis is also a problem in and of itself. Basically, even if Zoro wasn’t so good, Ghetsis should still be banned.
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Ghestsis still a problem even though it was part of expanded since its inception, never caused any issue until zoroark. Or are you saying because zoroark brought the card back to the front of everyone's minds it is a problem now?
 
CrownAxe said:
That' doesn't prove anything . It getting banned now proves that TPCi has realized it's a problem now, not that it wasn't a problem worthy of banning until now

TPCi released Lysandre's Trump Card and did not ban it for several months while also banned Shiftry instead of FoGP, only to realize their mistake and reverse it 2 years later. TPCi is not infallible and doesn't know everything thing about their game perfectly.
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So TPCi could be completely wrong with these bans?

If so then why am I getting so much hate and disrespect for not toeing the corporate line and praising TPCi like everyone else?
 
orthusaku said:
So TPCi could be completely wrong with these bans?

If so then why am I getting so much hate and disrespect for not toeing the corporate line and praising TPCi like everyone else?
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Because you haven't given a compelling argument for why banning ghetsis is wrong

Or because you just keep making inflammatory comments like straw maning with Safe Guard or phrasing it as "getting hate for not praising TPCi like everyone else"
 
CrownAxe said:
Because you haven't given a compelling argument for why banning ghetsis is wrong

Or because you just keep making inflammatory comments like straw maning with Safe Guard or phrasing it as "getting hate for not praising TPCi like everyone else"
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The compelling argument as least as I see it is that keeping cards like hex or ghetsis around is it would create an ebb and flow of what techs are used and what engines are viable. This does mean that testing is harder are players then have to predict which hard counters will be in high use at an event and which ones will not be. But I see an ebb and flow to allow an ever shifting meta that can't be solved, now it does come with an issue that as new sets come in, the cards may not be as viable or some may be more vialbe than TPCi expected due to the ebb and flow.
 
orthusaku said:
The compelling argument as least as I see it is that keeping cards like hex or ghetsis around is it would create an ebb and flow of what techs are used and what engines are viable. This does mean that testing is harder are players then have to predict which hard counters will be in high use at an event and which ones will not be. But I see an ebb and flow to allow an ever shifting meta that can't be solved, now it does come with an issue that as new sets come in, the cards may not be as viable or some may be more vialbe than TPCi expected due to the ebb and flow.
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This makes no sense to me. Can you explain?
 
Latte1504 said:
This makes no sense to me. Can you explain?
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Ebb and Flow: a recurrent or rhythmical pattern of coming and going or decline and regrowth.

1. Hex/Ghetsis see high use
2. Playes build decks less suspectible to Hex/Ghetsis
3. Hex/Ghetsis use weans
4. Decks weak to Hex/Ghetsis see high use
5. Hex/Ghetsis use rises

This mean as a meta starts to over focus on one type of deck, the counter will see play, thus naturally the meta will self balance.

Edit: the only problem with this system as I see it is this.

New set comes out, TPCi expects X card to be dominate T1 deck, the current stage of ebb and flow causes X card to not see use.
 
orthusaku said:
Ebb and Flow: a recurrent or rhythmical pattern of coming and going or decline and regrowth.

1. Hex/Ghetsis see high use
2. Playes build decks less suspectible to Hex/Ghetsis
3. Hex/Ghetsis use weans
4. Decks weak to Hex/Ghetsis see high use
5. Hex/Ghetsis use rises

This mean as a meta starts to over focus on one type of deck, the counter will see play, thus naturally the meta will self balance .
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This would be fine, but Hex and Ghetsis were always autoincludes, so there was no cycle.
 
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