Standard Greninja BREAK

[EarthwormZim]

Hey all, I'm currently finishing up my PTCGO Greninja BREAK list and wanted some input:

Pokémon (20)
4x Froakie
4x Frogadier
4x Greninja
3x Greninja BREAK
2x Staryu (BKP)
2x Starmie (EVO)
1x Starmie BREAK

Trainers (30)
4x Sycamore
4x N
2x Wally
4x Evosoda
4x Ultra Ball
3x Brooklet Hill
2x Rescue Stretcher
2x Field Blower
3x Choice Band
2x Guzma

Energy (10)
3x Splash Energy
7x Water

I guess my main question is, are people now running 2-prize Pokémon in this deck? Specifically things like Lele, Fini, Espeon EX? Mainly wondering since I included 2 Wally to try and get a turn 1 water duplicates, but without Lele it doesn't seem worth it. Is a turn 2 water duplicates usually fast enough? Granted when going first it doesn't really matter since you can't attack anyway. But Wally can also help go from a Frogadier right into Greninja BREAK the following turn assuming you have Greninja or an Evosoda in hand.

Also, the 1-of Starmie BREAK may seem random but it's for the mirror (and to a lesser extent, Xerneas and Zoroark BREAK). I figure if decks are committing a slot for Giratina Promo specifically for Greninja BREAK, why not tech in a single card for Greninja BREAK as well?

I'm sure a lot of people are going to recommend a 1-1 line of Starmie, but I've always hated 1-1 lines due to prizing a piece of the evolutionary line way too often. Is switching one of the Rescue Stretcher for a Super Rod advised in case you don't get your Starmie on line so you can throw some energy back into the deck? I also want to put 1-2 Max Potion in but the deck is so tight as it is -_-.

 

[joffreyspikes]

Hey all, I'm currently finishing up my PTCGO Greninja BREAK list and wanted some input:

Pokémon (20)
4x Froakie
4x Frogadier
4x Greninja
3x Greninja BREAK
2x Staryu (BKP)
2x Starmie (EVO)
1x Starmie BREAK

Trainers (30)
4x Sycamore
4x N
2x Wally
4x Evosoda
4x Ultra Ball
3x Brooklet Hill
2x Rescue Stretcher
2x Field Blower
3x Choice Band
2x Guzma

Energy (10)
3x Splash Energy
7x Water

I guess my main question is, are people now running 2-prize Pokémon in this deck? Specifically things like Lele, Fini, Espeon EX? Mainly wondering since I included 2 Wally to try and get a turn 1 water duplicates, but without Lele it doesn't seem worth it. Is a turn 2 water duplicates usually fast enough? Granted when going first it doesn't really matter since you can't attack anyway. But Wally can also help go from a Frogadier right into Greninja BREAK the following turn assuming you have Greninja or an Evosoda in hand.

Also, the 1-of Starmie BREAK may seem random but it's for the mirror (and to a lesser extent, Xerneas and Zoroark BREAK). I figure if decks are committing a slot for Giratina Promo specifically for Greninja BREAK, why not tech in a single card for Greninja BREAK as well?

I'm sure a lot of people are going to recommend a 1-1 line of Starmie, but I've always hated 1-1 lines due to prizing a piece of the evolutionary line way too often. Is switching one of the Rescue Stretcher for a Super Rod advised in case you don't get your Starmie on line so you can throw some energy back into the deck? I also want to put 1-2 Max Potion in but the deck is so tight as it is -_-.

Yeah someone else who uses Starmie BREAK! Anyway, I don’t think that 2 Guzma (would play 1) are too necessary (unless yoi are hellbent on achieving Triple GWS), and neither are the Wally. Would play a full set of Field Blower because this is probably the deck that is hurt most by Garbotoxin of any deck, and stick in another Choice Band.

 

[momand]

I don't really see the main point in running Starmie BREAK when Starmie is just a bench-sitter.

Tapu Fini is essential for that Golisopod matchup, Espeon is good considering a huge part of the meta is either Stage 1's or Stage 2's (rare candy), being able to do easy knockouts by simply using the ability and using Miraculous Shine to knock them out is really good.

 

[EarthwormZim]

I don't really see the main point in running Starmie BREAK when Starmie is just a bench-sitter.

Tapu Fini is essential for that Golisopod matchup, Espeon is good considering a huge part of the meta is either Stage 1's or Stage 2's (rare candy), being able to do easy knockouts by simply using the ability and using Miraculous Shine to knock them out is really good.

Starmie BREAK is simply for the mirror similar to how Giratina is a counter in other decks strictly for Greninja. Starmie BREAK's attack does 100 damage to all your opponent's Pokémon BREAK for a single water energy. Since it only has a retreat of 1, getting it in to hit all Greninja BREAKs for 1 then retreating next turn, using its ability to get that one energy back, seems fairly easy. Or if it survives long enough (unlikely) it can KO every opposing Greninja BREAK in 2 attacks.

I understand the thought behind including Tapu Fiji and Espeon (I do the Necrozma GX attack into Miraculous Shine in my Marshadow Toolbox deck), but since Greninja is a deck that goes behind on prizes early, can it really afford to be benching 2 prize Pokemon? That was really my main question because up until recently I had never seen a Greninja list that had any 2-prizers.

 

[Duo]

The idea behind something like Tapu Fini or Espeon is to pick the right time to use them where being a 2 prizer isn't a draw back. Their attacks are effective enough to develop a win condition for you.

The risk is worth the reward to put it simply. The only time it sucks is when you open them. Having both Fini and Espeon means that you can deal with both singular threats and a whole bench of threats, depending on your needs. Between the two, I prioritize Fini much more since Espeon requires you to be doing sort of well to begin with and pulling off shurikens to have anything worth devolving. Fini, on the other hand, gives you instant room to breathe when things don't go your way and can prevent your opponent from KOing a BREAK, which can take a very long time to get set back up.

If using Fini can save a BREAK and that BREAK leads to you taking 2 or more prizes, then it becomes neutral or positive prize value in your favor. Plus, after Fini uses its GX attack, it becomes a Lele in the sense that KOing it does net your opponent 2 prizes, but it doesn't remove a single threat from your side of the field. As long as a Fini KO won't be last 2 prizes for game, you give your Greninja BREAKs more opportunity to take prizes AND remove your opponent's threats through KOs, and Fini removed a threat already as well. That's why it ends up playing out in your favor. Fini is basically bait after it GX attacks. And ultimately, Fini is your only in-theme coverage against Golisopod since it's not weak to Grass and can withstand a hit that isn't Crossing Cut GX + Choice Band (so you have to recognize what your opponent is capable of before you use it)

As for the 1/1 Starmie line, you shouldn't really be needing Starmie until later in the game. You basically don't need it until you at least see your first Greninja BREAK. Even if it is prized, you should be taking some KOs and grabbing it out of prizes around the midgame just in time to have it. I would also say that it's better to set up Starmie in the mid game when you have 1 or 2 Greninja and 1 or 2 BREAK in play so that your opponent doesn't have the freedom to Guzma KO it. I Guzma KO'd a Starmie that a Greninja player got out with Brooklet hill on turn 2 or 3 who didn't have a single Greninja yet, and I never saw a single giant water shuriken the whole game. Since Frogadiers and Starmies are worth the same prize value but Starmies give BREAK much more consistent Giant Water Shurikens, I think people should always be going for Starmie if the Greninja player isn't applying enough pressure.

I would reference the 2nd place Greninja list that was at...Hartford? I want to say, assuming you haven't done so already.

 

[Auouch]

So which greninja version is more consistant and suited for the meta right now? The tapu lele version (the one Michael Long used to get to runner up) or the Talonflame version? If someone where to use the talonflame version, would you still include the 1/1 starmie line?