Discussion Haunter Discussion
- Thread starter GengarGuys
- Start date
Alright just went 2-2-2 with Giratina/Haunter. I think that the deck is good over all I just lost a few because of... Jirachi... Alright that is all for tonight just some final thoughts.
Giratina/Haunter is amazing if you are a senior division player definitely play it.
Landorus/Haunter is bad. Instead of Landorus why not play Amoonguss? It makes your opponent confused and poisoned.
Decklist for @Asmer
3 Haunter (BKT 59)
4 Trevenant-EX (PCL 145)
2 Spinarak (AOR 5)
3 Ariados (AOR 6)
2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 106)
3 Gastly (BKT 58)
4 Herbal Energy (FUF 103)
7 Grass Energy (XY 132)
1 Lysandre (FLF 104)
3 Switch (PCL 163)
2 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
2 Level Ball (AOR 76)
3 Ultra Ball (FLF 99)
2 Forest of Giant Plants (AOR 74)
4 Heavy Boots (BKT 141)
4 Professor Sycamore (XY 122)
4 VS Seeker (ROS 110)
2 AZ (PHF 117)
1 Giovanni's Scheme (BKT 162)
4 Professor Birch's Observations (PCL 159)
Giratina/Haunter is amazing if you are a senior division player definitely play it.
Landorus/Haunter is bad. Instead of Landorus why not play Amoonguss? It makes your opponent confused and poisoned.
Decklist for @Asmer
3 Haunter (BKT 59)
4 Trevenant-EX (PCL 145)
2 Spinarak (AOR 5)
3 Ariados (AOR 6)
2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 106)
3 Gastly (BKT 58)
4 Herbal Energy (FUF 103)
7 Grass Energy (XY 132)
1 Lysandre (FLF 104)
3 Switch (PCL 163)
2 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
2 Level Ball (AOR 76)
3 Ultra Ball (FLF 99)
2 Forest of Giant Plants (AOR 74)
4 Heavy Boots (BKT 141)
4 Professor Sycamore (XY 122)
4 VS Seeker (ROS 110)
2 AZ (PHF 117)
1 Giovanni's Scheme (BKT 162)
4 Professor Birch's Observations (PCL 159)
We are having some issues with either communication or reason, I think.
On its own, socery you are correct that Confusion doesn't amount to much... but that is why Haunter is being used to support something else. Confusion is possibly the weakest of Special Conditions but originally it was one of the best: you used to have to flip to manually retreat out of it successfully, plus back then you could retreat as often as you could afford the Retreat Cost during your turn, but a failed Confusion check meant you couldn't attempt to retreat again with that Pokémon.
When backing up a control combo, your opponent will lose access to most of the easy answers for Special Conditions. Not all of them, but the principle is that it will eventually become too expensive to shake. Some of the ideas @GengarGuys aren't typically what I would call control, but the principle seems similar. I am only working with hypotheses while GengarGuys is actually testing, though likely he can't afford the kind of testing required to minimize the possibility of lucky runs (...you know, dozens of matches, including taking on the top decks over and over again and not just any and all comers). Still, whatever he does post can help, especially when more information is included so we can determine how likely the results are outliers or demonstrative of what we should expect.
Machamp-EX should really not risk attacking while Confused, for the record - even though Crazy Hammer removes Special Conditions afterwards, Confusion means a 50% chance of placing three damage counters on itself instead of doing anything to the opponent and remaining Confused. The Poison trick with Ariados works so well because Crazy Hammer cures the Poison before it ever places a single damage counter. Burn could work similarly while Sleep and Paralysis don't even give a 50% chance of getting off a Crazy Hammer.
Not to nitpick Asmer, but no the reasoning given by socery does not indicate that Poison is useless; Poison triggers between turns so if it is inflicted and there isn't some between turns cure, it always has a chance to place at least a single damage counter before it is cured. What has made Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym so important since their release is that a relatively simple combo increases the range of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Sometimes Poison is useless; if it doesn't actually shift the amount of turns required for the KO, it didn't truly do anything. Exceptions to what I just said would include things like triggering Crazy Hammer, of course and back in the day Pokémon Powers and later most Poké-Powers would shut down if something was Poisoned.
...Except that is exactly why I stated what I did.
I disagree with the idea that Poison, or status effects in general, are "useless" when they successfully do what they're supposed to do because it forces your opponent in to a situation that is not favorable. He never said Poison was "useless"... he asked why one would use Confusion when it is so easy to remove the condition via things that switch your Pokemon out. The same logic can be applied to Poison, Sleep, heck, Paralyze in the examples that he was using (I.E. Sparkling Robe), but as we all know, Special Conditions really do affect this game. Now, as far as Posion being of less effectiveness as we may desire it to be? Of course. There are situations where you only put a single Damage Counter on your opponent. But, once again, that's why I stated what I did. That is the bare minimum you can do with Poison and your opponent has to waste some form of resource to remove the condition, which still did something in the case of Poison because, as you mentioned, it works in-between turns.
I do agree, however. There was a lack of understanding between everyone. Unfortunately, that lack of understand was between you and my Post, not me and his. I apologize.
Not sure if it has been cleared up yet. If it has then we have not a lack of understanding but a disagreement.
Um... if not clear the playful emoticon means I realize that it isn't a big deal for someone to disagree with me on such things.
Here you are getting very subjective: what you think they are supposed to do versus what I think they are supposed to do. Sadly we really don't know all too clearly what the-powers-that-be intend. For a time it was a bit more obvious because you could see that at first all Special Conditions had a similar Energy cost for attacks that inflicted them... but as time went by it began to differentiate because it was clear that while the designers thought (as an example) Sleep having a chance of going away or sticking around made it an equal to Paralysis, the results didn't support that. Eventually we started getting automatic Sleep for the same cost we got to flip to inflict Paralysis and yes I'm going very, very far back (like 10 years ago).
So if Special Conditions are supposed to be a mild irritant than yes that is what they largely are. I still stand by that a Special Condition can ultimately have no effect on the game even if it clearly has an effect on the Pokémon. When an attacker that is going to be OHKOed anyway is Poisoned, the Poison just didn't matter unless the KO was uncertain such as with coin flip based damage (in which case it may have been an insurance policy), triggered some effect or was meant to simply provide a psychological advantage. The same is true if the Poison damage doesn't alter how long it takes to score a 2HKO; technically being Poisoned means there is a countdown until that Active is KOed but practically it doesn't matter because it will be KOed long before the Poison can make a difference.
Here we are trying to find times when Confusion makes a difference, and even when someone makes a Confusion check or uses up a finite resource to remove the Special Condition, as you have pointed out yes that does indeed matter.
If you still don't agree with me then... okay! I'm honestly not entirely sure what I've said that wasn't pretty straightforward and that usually indicates it is how I am delivering the message and that attempts at clarification are going to just make things worse. Or when I am in the wrong, that it will take some time before it "clicks". Either way I shouldn't clutter up the thread with any similarly long responses. Hope this hasn't been too bad of a tangent already. ^^'
It's not a big deal, no. I just like logical discussions.
The reason I pushed for the idea of Status Effects being of importance is because the original post I responded to seemed to lack any sort of non-situation in-game logic. To state that things like Escape Rope, Switch, even Sparkling Robe implies that you will always have those answers in the situations you need them. This is both illogical and irrational, especially with Status Affecting Pokemon that can "spam" their abilities (Ariados is the best example). Also, to clear up what I said about "when they do what they're supposed to do", I was actually referring to a moment (which I clearly forgot to even remotely mention...bad me!) within the last few months that took place on camera. Frank Diaz, winner of the Fort Wayne Regionals for the Master Division, ended up winning a crucial Game 2 off of the inability of his opponent waking up from a successful Hypnotoxic Laser. He had three turns to wake before losing a game he clearly should have won. He did not. Is this an extremely hard situation to recreate? I believe so, especially at such a high levels as the Final Round of a tournament. Did it win him the game and the tournament? You bet. Was it due to an in-game mechanic that makes a difference?
Well, you can argue that it was due to the luck of rolling a die, but... Luck is a silly thing to argue for.
Still, the only reason I spoke out about this is because there's a large difference between logical disagreements and disagreements against logic. If a "clutch" situation can win you a crucial game that leads you to a Tournament Victory, I fail to see how this mechanic is "useless" in any form. I think "useless" is an excessively overused and strong word. If it was truly "useless", there would be no reason to use Status Effects whatsoever. And yet, we still do.
Granted, Confusion is not the best of the Statuses. It is a bit more "luck based" than the other Statuses. That said, it is a Status that forces your opponent to make a decision that may cost them games. This is a solid fact, as many of us would know.
Sorry for the long response. I simply dislike when people loosely argue points that are generalized (as you pointed out that my original statement-- well, lack of full explanation, was subjective). :3
@Asmer
1) At no point do I say any condition is useless. I simply think confusion isn't incredibly helpful.
2) I'm not talking about poison. If this thread were about poison, I would say my opinion.
3) If everything did what they were supposed to do (special conditions), then roller skates would be draw three, crushing hammer is just discard, artincuno could hit for 180 easily, etc.
4) Zoroark, float stone, switch, and AZ are VERY popular. Not that you will get it when you need it, but count on it.
Hope this helps. I just don't think confusion is very helpful in most cases, if at all. I suppose I agree with @Otaku .
1) At no point do I say any condition is useless. I simply think confusion isn't incredibly helpful.
2) I'm not talking about poison. If this thread were about poison, I would say my opinion.
3) If everything did what they were supposed to do (special conditions), then roller skates would be draw three, crushing hammer is just discard, artincuno could hit for 180 easily, etc.
4) Zoroark, float stone, switch, and AZ are VERY popular. Not that you will get it when you need it, but count on it.
Hope this helps. I just don't think confusion is very helpful in most cases, if at all. I suppose I agree with @Otaku .
It was this line I was responding to. Poison was the over-exaggerated example as to why I disagreed with this specific statement. The fact that you and Otaku both continue to emphasize the point that there was no discussion about Poison vs Confusion (or Poison in general) after I stated:
...makes me wonder if either of you are actually reading what I typed. Regardless, and I will state this once again, in bold...
I agree that Confusion is one of the least useful conditions. I also disagree that any of the conditions are 100% useless.
If there is no conflicting feelings about the above statement, perfect! There is no problem, then. I will politely ask, however, that my words are no longer taken out of context (specifically for this particular topic). Regardless, I no longer feel the desire to discuss this topic. You also did state at number 1 that you never said any of the conditions were useless, so I am sure you do agree with the statement in Bold, which is reassuring.
Thank you for the discussion. Let us move on with something more important.
The fact that it's a drop-in ability for just confusion would slow down any deck. Ariados has the strength of poisoning every single turn, while Haunter on the other hand will only land confusion on the drop, and then sit idle on the bench. Sure, there's AZ and Scoops, but one takes your supporter and the other is a flip, while you could have used your bench AND deck space for something with more efficiency. Haunter seems like something that is a nice touch for decks already using Gengar, but if you're using Haunter JUST for it's drop effect, you're ultimately just going to slow your deck down with something that's, 9 times out of 10, just a minor annoyance and easy to work around. If you want the Haunter drop to mean something, you might as well be using a psychic deck that's already packing Gengar, otherwise you're wasting your bench space on something that is practically dead in the water afterwards.