Help! M Venusaur EX deck (Standard)

[Javi Blizz]

Hey guys! Since FoGP was released I've been thinking about how to play M Venusaur EX, since I think it has one of the best attacks in the game atm. The main problem with it is its lack of a Spirit Link. I've been trying some things, like Bannete ROS (the non AT one), but it is still very slow. But recently, I've heard about a version of Primal Groudon that have won some tournaments without any Spirit Link in the decklist, so why give up with M Venusaur? I've had some more ideas, so I'd like if you could help me

- Vileplume AO: an item lock could help us to slow down our opponent while evolving and charging our M Venusaur on the bench. On one hand, our opponent can't play Spirit Links or Team Flare Tools; on the other hand, we can't use Megaturbo to accelerate, so it takes 4 turns to have a full operative mega. That's too much, I think. Maybe the inclussion of Illumise PCL could help. It would also include something to deal with Giratina EX and Regice.

-M Sceptile EX: it let us to charge our M Venusaurs faster (2 energies per turn) and heal them if necessary, but we're relying on 2 megas, so matchs against Giratina EX would be very frustrating. Once again, we must include something against Giratina EX and Regice. Also, we'll be slower than our opponents, since we lose our turn while evolving Venusaur EX.

-Sceptile PCL: It's a stage 2 pokemon, so the Tina/Regice is not so painful. Also, we could include as a 1-of the AT Sceptile from the same set for that purpose. With Sceptile, we can accelerate M Venusaur while charging it. I think this is the fastest version, but I'm not sure at all. With this Sceptile, we could try to make work a Super Potion engine for healing 50+30 each turn.

Even then, if we choose any of this variants, we have some huge problems:
-M Venusaur EX is an easy Lysandre play, since it has a 4 retreat cost. (Maybe Float Stone?)
-Yveltal EX / Lugia EX can hit us very hard with a cheap cost, since we need 4 energy. (Maybe Assault Vest or Hard Charm?)
-I think there's no basic (non-EX) grass type pokemon which can deal with Regice (only Virizion AO while you're loosing)


So, now that you have read this, could you help me with your advice? Thanks!

 

[Purrloin]

For the record, Regice is weak to Steel, not Grass. (Sorry if you knew this, but it sounded to me like you were operating with the assumption it was Grass weak.) So Illumise wouldn't really do anything against it before being obliterated with its low HP; you'd get maybe one turn of accel and you'd have no time to utilize its Confusion attack.

Personally I've been throwing a 1-1, 2-1, or 2-2 Pineco/Forretress (Flashfire 60) line in a lot of my decks. In addition to having a semi-situationally-useful ability, its attack is [C][C] so it can fit into any deck, and it OHKO's Regice with ease.

I've personally tried two decks with Sceptile: M-Venusaur EX and Trevenant-EX. I've personally found it to be quite slow, even with FoGP, but if you could get your deck flowing well enough to get 1 to 2 Sceptiles out quickly (or more!), I think it's by far the best bet for Grass accel. I also second your suggestion of sticking Assault Vest on Venusaur. It doesn't need that space for a Spirit Link so you might as well defend a bit against the Ball attackers.

Another possible support Pokemon is Floette (Flashfire 64). A while ago at a local tournament I faced a deck that got their Mega Venusaur up to 310 HP that way, which helped make up for the multiple turns charging it up.

 

[Javi Blizz]

Hey, thanks!

I know that Regice is weak to steel, it's an Ice-type pokemon ahaha

I think Floette and Forretress are too slow to be played with M Venusaur, so maybe I'll try it with Sceptile

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Although the lack of its own related Spirit Link does impede M Venusaur EX setup speed, another concern you've noted is the lack of major energy-attachment acceleration due to the prerequisite of its expensive (i.e., in time) GGGC energy cost.

However, in my opinion, you may have another viable alternative. Have you seen the new Generations Venusaur EX? Its Poison Impact attack is somewhat similar to that of M Venusaur EX in that Venusaur EX (GEN) inflicts Sleep and Poison (versus Paralysis and Poison). However, Venusaur EX (GEN) Poison Impact attack only inflicts 80 damage, but for GGCC energy cost versus M Venusaur EX 120 more time expensive GGGC energy cost. With Venusaur EX (GEN), you can have this Pokemon attacking earlier by at least 1 turn.

Consider a skeleton deck consisting of:

4 - Illumise - preferred starter that can provide some energy-attachment acceleration or Confuse Defending Pokemon
4 - Venusaur EX (GEN) - main attacker
3 - Vileplume - outstanding Pokemon to use in Grass decks to Item-lock opponents, especially T1
2 - Gloom
3 - Oddish

2 - AZ - to pickup Vileplume stack when you want to play Items
2 - Delinquent - counters opponent's Stadium, as well as dispupt opponent's hand
3 - Fighting Fury Belt - to give your Venusaur EX (GEN) an extra 40 HP and 10 damage output boost
4 - Forest of Giant Plants - counter Stadium, as well as enablement to Item-lock your opponent T1 by evolving Oddish to Vileplume in 1 turn
3 - Judge - to disrupt your opponent's hand and help to slow opponent down
3 - Level Ball - to search and get Oddish and Gloom
3 - Trainer's Mail - to facilitate drawing into needed Trainers to help setup your bench fast T1
3 - Ultra Ball - to search and get main Pokemon​

Further, you could still incorporate M Venusaur EX into the deck should you wish too for its significant 50 additional HP versus Venusaur EX (GEN) 180 HP. In this case, you would not need the Fighting Fury Belts; but also consider incorporating 2 Shrine of Memories in order to use Venusar EX (GEN)'s attacks.

I hope you find these comments helpful.

 

[Javi Blizz]

Thanks! I was thinking in M Venusaur XY instead of Venusaur GEN for the paralysis in its attack. But I could try it in the PTCGO. Would you include the revitalizer engine?

I think it's faster to get a T1 Vileplume that way than using balls

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Revitalizer requires you to first have the needed G Pokemon in your discard pile before you can retrieve them. This also implies you had them in hand (so why not just use the Pokemon then) at some point in order to discard them... Using Revitalizer doesn't seem that useful to me in this case.

 

[Purrloin]

Revitalizer requires you to first have the needed G Pokemon in your discard pile before you can retrieve them. This also implies you had them in hand (so why not just use the Pokemon then) at some point in order to discard them... Using Revitalizer doesn't seem that useful to me in this case.

I think Battle Compressor + Revitalizer works pretty well.

 

[Javi Blizz]

That was what I was thinking about when I said the revitalizer engine, Battle Compressor + Revitalizer

So I think I'll try it

 

[TuxedoBlack]

So, the idea, I assume, is to discard certain card(s) to "bypass or avoid" an Ultra Ball 2 card discard "cost"? Only helpful for the Vileplume since it has 130 HP; the Illumise, Oddish or Gloom can all be searched for with a Level Ball. Does the Battle Compressor-Revitalizer engine really provide any more "value" than the Ball engine?

 

[Javi Blizz]

So, the idea, I assume, is to discard certain card(s) to "bypass or avoid" an Ultra Ball 2 card discard "cost"? Only helpful for the Vileplume since it has 130 HP; the Illumise, Oddish and Gloom can all be searched for with a Level Ball.

Yes, since there's not always 2 cards that you wouldn't mind to discard or maybe you don't have enough cards in your hand. Also, Revitalizer can retrieve you a T1 "Sycamored" Gloom/Vileplume if you couldn't get an Oddish before you played the Professor.

 

[Purrloin]

I think the BC+Revitalizer combo is most useful in the early game when you have to wait for a turn to evolve anyway (unless you use Wally or FOGP). Kinda like how people use BC to discard a bunch of useful Supporters to VS. Seek later in the game.

Only problem is, of course, Item Lock. It'd be pretty painful to discard a few Pokemon you need and have no good way to get them back.

@TuxedoBlack does have a good point though in that most of the Pokemon you're considering can be found with Level Ball. The BC+Revitalizer combo might be better used in decks with consistently higher HP or decks like Florges EX which need a lot of [Y] and [G] Pokemon quickly. The Ball approach might be better here.

 

[Otaku]

Hey guys! Since FoGP was released I've been thinking about how to play M Venusaur EX, since I think it has one of the best attacks in the game atm.

Play what you like, but I am curious as to why you think Crisis Vine is so good. At first I wasn't going to bring this up but it really does speak to how you plan on using the card and what your options are to go with that. Then seeing you bring up other cards that have many other things going for them as justification without making sure the same things apply... it works best to approach a deck with realistic expectations. Still it is a bit distracting so Spoiler Box to the formatting rescue.

Spoiler

Crisis Vine requires four Energy to use, specifically [GGGC]. That is not an easy amount to meet. On Crisis Vine it buys 120 damage, Paralysis and Poison. Compare and contrast that with other similarly expensive attacks, such as that of Primal Groudon-EX (as you brought that card up yourself): Primal Groudon-EX scores 100 damage for the same price (advantage: M Venusaur-EX) but its Gaia Volcano attack states that if there is a Stadium in play, the attack does 100+100 damage, then discards that Stadium. Stadium cards are pretty important right now, so even without this effect a Primal Groudon-EX deck has reason to run three or more, plus the opponent is likely be need his or her own Stadium, forcing them to either damage their own strategy or supply you with a damage bonus. Gaia Volcano scores a OHKO against everything that lacks a protective effect, HP buffs, or is not a Mega Evolution or Wailord-EX. Might be a few other exceptions, but the main point is most of the card pool, let alone the competitive card pool, goes down in one hit. With a Strong Energy and Fighting Stadium, everything but Wailord-EX and protected stuff like Safeguard Pokémon are OHKOs. Primal Groudon-EX has an Ancient Trait (Ω Barrier) that protects both itself, its Energy cards and any Pokémon Tools it has attached from the effects of your opponent's Trainer cards (save those put into play). This is a significant part of its success.

So back to Crisis Vine; yes it hits hard enough to setup for a 2HKO against almost everything in the game, and often enough a OHKO. That is actually pretty typical in competitive decks, even with attackers that need far less Energy. Most decks right now will have an answer for Special Conditions: AZ, Pokémon Center Lady, Super Scoop Up, Switch or a combo like Keldeo-EX plus Float Stone. Now for four Energy on a Mega Evolution, other Mega Evolutions are looking to do somewhat reliable OHKOs, while M Venusaur-EX is going to a 2HKO that counts on Paralysis to turn it into a soft lock. Unless you add in even more stuff, your opponent will get to attack you roughly every other turn. Every turn, if they have smaller Pokémon you can OHKO! This is the issue with attacks that both hit hard but also try to pull off locking the opponent out of attacking: if the lock is the kind that depends upon the Defending Pokémon surviving, your own deck will break such a lock.

So... do I have some advice or am I just being "that guy" who tells you something isn't all that good?

Yes, I have advice. You need to pick between shutting down Abilities with Garbodor or (as you have already done) shutting down Items with Vileplume. Going after Abilities means you can freely use Mega Turbo and/or Max Elixir to address your Energy crisis, but taking out Items is also more likely to slow down your opponent (plus Vileplume is on Type). Vileplume might be best combined with AZ because I cannot think of a good way to accelerate Energy to M Venusaur-EX that is not Item based (note that I said a good way - plenty of not-so-good options). You do not have time for the other options presented; if you go first you get no attack anyway and you really need to Mega Evolve on your first turn to get that first M Venusaur-EX into play. You also really need to make it last as you'll lose a turn anytime you must replace it. If unclear, AZ is there to bounce Vileplume so you can play your Items on your own turn then - thanks to Forest of Giant Plants - play the entire Vileplume line to the field again in one turn.

Good luck!