Pokemon How do you feel about the new type chart? Would you change anything?

[FoxFire]

My first thought is Water; the water attack essentially shorts out the Electric Pokemon. I also think it'd be cool to have a mutually weak pair of types as opposed to just types weak to themselves (Ghost and Dragon).

Having Electric and Water be mutually weak to each other would benefit Water a bit too much, then Electric types become less of a viable counter and you have to rely on Grass and whatever learns Freeze Dry. If it's a special kind of Water move that can counter Electric, then maybe, but if you mean to actually edit the type chart so that Water is strong against Electric, then that would be too imbalanced (and it means you missed the entire point of what I just said).

1. I was operating on what makes sense, rather than balance.
2. I also think Water should have more weaknesses (such as Ice in general, even though that invalidates Freeze Dry's existence).

 

[Turtwig]

It's a bummer that the grass type still retains its five harsh weaknesses. I think the Poison and Flying weaknesses are less important compared to fire, ice, and bug. While birds may eat seeds, the wind disperses them into different locations and thus provides the plants more room to flourish. It's more of a balance than anything else. With Poison...I understand why, but I don't like it. Plants can survive different poisons easily, just ask the weeds in my driveway. Most are for pesky insects that are eating flowers or invading one's home (though I'm not saying that poison could not kill a plant). I would remove these two weaknesses so the Grass type isn't as underwhelming.

Now for Ice-types, I think a water/ice offensive relationship should be mutual. Since it's already been discussed, there is no need for me to comment on it. To be honest, I think the offensive capabilities somewhat make up for the Ice type's lack of resistances.

Fire = fire, heat, sun
WEA - water, ground (dirt also can kill fires), flying (air can kill fires)
INM -
RES - grass (fire burns plants), fire, steel (metal melts at high temperatures), fairy (GFs chioce), bug (fire kills bugs)
STR - grass, bug, poison, steel = 4

Keep in mind that while air and wind can kill fires, wind is able to also spread them. Fires are all the time becoming a larger threat in society because of the winds that propel them. In other words, I don't think Flying should be a weakness for the Fire-type.

 

[Their Goominess]

It's a bummer that the grass type still retains its five harsh weaknesses. I think the Poison and Flying weaknesses are less important compared to fire, ice, and bug. While birds may eat seeds, the wind disperses them into different locations and thus provides the plants more room to flourish. It's more of a balance than anything else. With Poison...I understand why, but I don't like it. Plants can survive different poisons easily, just ask the weeds in my driveway. Most are for pesky insects that are eating flowers or invading one's home (though I'm not saying that poison could not kill a plant). I would remove these two weaknesses so the Grass type isn't as underwhelming.

Strong winds can also uproot plants.
If they are really strong they can fell trees.

Both aspects of the Flying type (ie birds & wind) make sense for it to be SE on Grass.

 

[Mitja]

This is gonna be a long post.

I'll try using a way of thinking about type match-ups, as consistent as possible and taking into consideration what the target gains by being of a certain type and what is coming for it.

I always thought Ice should resist Water and be super effective against it. Ice changes water into itself.

But the thing is, Ice has already been great offensively from the beginning (allowing mostly Water types to have amazing offensive coverage), while Ice types themselves (defense) are so fragile and defenseless, that this change would in the end make
-Ice offense stronger than the current top three (Rock/Fighting/Ground)
-nerf Water from a good defensive type to one as weak as Bug
(Ludicolo/Kingdra/Gastrodon/Swampert/Gyarados have a new quad weaknesses then, ouch)

I always thought Poison should be super effective against Fighting at the very least. Fighting is the most human-like of the types, and obviously Poison is destructive against us. Also, Poison should be effective against water with the whole pollution angle.

In that sense, poison should be super-effective on every thing, because poison tends to be lethal to all living things. Fighting has nothing to do with humans either.

Yea.
The only thing I could see Poison gain an advantage over in the current state is Normal. It's the average type and would make sense to be defeated by superior skill and health hazards.

Then why does Poison resist Fighting?

Have to be way too careful when fighting venomous/hazardous creatures when using straightforward techniques/martial arts, which makes it inefficient compared to usual moves.
At least that would be my guess.

Why does Water resist Steel? Sometimes they just do, for the sake of keeping the type chart somewhat balanced.

Sure there is plenty of cases where going for balance gives priority to which logic is implemented, but most of the time, it still has to make sense compared to how other types deal with the type in question.

For the example used, first we have to figure out what makes generic Steel type attacks different to regular attacks. Probably that the hits are tougher and sturdier.
Then we consider what generic defensive features a creature gains by being heavily associated by Water type. This seems to be the most difficult part when its about such elemental types as Water and Electric.
With Water it seems straightforward enough to me though. Having your attacks tougher/sturdier can easily be worse than regular attacks when used against slippery/humid creatures.

Electrics resistance to Steel is what I cannot figure out.

Because of rust.

But that's backwards...I mean, this would make an argument for Steel being weak to Water moves, not for Water resisting Steel moves.
But rusting is also a slow process. It's not like a Steel-armored creature will crumble from rusting when you throw Water moves at it.

some changes that should be made:

Dragon:
-make it NVE on Ice

Although I would have fully agreed before the introduction of Fairy, Dragon offense might have been overnerfed, so I'm not sure anymore. I mean there is now a type that is completely immune to it, while it's still only strong against a single type, itself, and that makes it almost pointless besides STAB, unless it has neutral coverage across the board (like pre-Fairy). While one little resistance wouldn't be a drastic nerf at this point, it would still be a step closer to making it as awful as Poison was before Fairy.

But since Ice is in dire need of any defensive buffs, it might be a good move in the big picture anyway.

-give it a weakness to Steel

But that's a bit much IMO. Steel got its needed offensive buff with Fairy too.

Ice:
-resistant to Dragon and Ground
-remove its weakness to Rock and Steel (I wanted to remove 2 and those seemed the best ones to remove... so yea)

Ice definitely needs any buffs on the defense it can get. IMO that is the biggest unfairness in the whole type chart (still.).
Definitely agree on the Ground resistance (Ground is one of the best offenses anyway).
But I'd also give it a Water resistance (before considering to nerf Dragon offense further), creating an interesting resist-resist match-up between Water and Ice.

As for getting rid of weaknesses. One would do more than a good enough job, but I don't feel fine ditching Rock and Steel then even less.

They should get rid of Steel being weak to Ground because it makes no sense since Steel carves the ground as good as it does with Rock.

That's also an argument for Ground being weak to Steel, not the other complete opposite.
I think the logic is that steel-creatures (whether biologically or just armor) being extra tough and sturdy makes them extra vulnerable to techniques exploiting the fact that most stuff is pulled down by gravity (thats my definition of Ground offense)

Also, Electric resisting Flying makes no sense (I saw tornadoes plucking electric towers just fine), it should be Neutral. Nothing else I think.

That's a poor example, considering tornadoes will throw pretty much anything around, meaning there'd be nothing that resists Flying.

Flying is a shaky concept as an element at first sight. But reducing it to wind is definitely not summing up its core, actually, its missing the point. The wind aspect is a noteworthy specialty on the side, at most, not its main asset.
Flying is foremost about taking advantage of the fact that one is airborne. This gives more freedom in executing moves, extra momentum and a visual strategic advantage.
Rock and Steel are simply tough enough for these features to not be any better than plain Normal moves (so resisted by both as well), while for Grass/Fighting/Bugs it's simply that being airborne against those gives you the upper hand (whether because they're inflexible like Grass-types or their moves predictable from above).

IMO Ghost should at least resist Flying moves regardless of it already being a very tough type, because its essentially a fancier Normal type.

But back to Electric... I don't have more than the balance argument here though. Maybe if it also resisted Fighting/Normal/Bug, I would apply the same logic as for Poison, by treating it as a dangerous target that requires more care for direct offense. Maybe that's even the case but these 3 types would suck horribly and Electric be way too good defensively if all those resistances were in place.
If not, I got no clue, but it should have something to do with either attacking from above or being agile (and not just those being useless, but actually becoming a disadvantage when used against an Electric-type).

Something, anything, should really be immune to Fairy. I don't care if it's Bug-Type, Fairy needs a nerf.

A bit. Gamefreak made Fairy not just defensively great, but also not bad as an offensive type.
SE against Dragon, Dark AND Fighting is quite a unique and useful combination.
But making something immune to it might be a bit too much again.
Its weird though that they gave Fire a resistance instead of something that actually needs it like Bug and Grass. Those are the first 2 I think of as candidates for the list.

Meh, Fairy doesn't look like its gonna be crazy overpowered.

The only really annoying thing about Fairy is its weaknesses.

He was talking about offense, but they did seem to go for quite a defensive type indeed.

Steel and Poison have always been lackluster in terms of coverage - Fighting is just better coverage than Steel in every way, and Poison's always been more of a defensive type - prior to gen6, it only hit Grass for SE damage which can be done much better with a Fire move.

But that's exactly why they made it weak tot hose 2. So they become crucial instead of a waste of moveslots.

I think they did go a bit overboard with its resistances tho.... Fighting+Dark resistance is nice, and Dragon immunity was a much-needed godsend, but they shouldn't have made it Bug resistant, if anything Bug should be the one resisting Fairy.

EXACTLY!
The Bug resistance was completely uncalled for, but if we took that away, it would be just fine.

I mean we have a very similar situation with Ghost. Weak to merely two not so fancy (and nearly identical..) types while having very few but crucial defenses in the forms of immunities.

A good type is nothing on a bad Pokemon - I remember when we first got B/W and everyone went crazy due to finding out about this Dragon/Ice type, turns out its not that great until it gets two awesome new formes.

Wait what? I felt sorry for Kyurem when I saw it, and was hoping having an Ice mascot would finally make them realize how fragile Ice is (unfortunately not it seems). Being Ice is a hindrance (in pretty much any case)(only one of the awesome formes actually made it to ubers, which is usually a given for any decent mascot, let alone with 720 total), unless the pokemon is purely offensive and if the Ice STAB actually matters (like in Weaviles case), so I'm not sure why anyone was supposedly going crazy about it (except for being a cool exotic combo that hasn't been done before). The type coverage they have as a combo isn't that nice either due to the only thing Dragon being strong against also being covered by Ice and both of them being resisted by Steel anyway.

I've already touched upon this, but I think Ice being crap defensively is only half the problem; GF seem to have this totally crap idea that Ice is a defensive type when it just isn't.
I've always thought Ice should be the glass cannon type Pokemon... Hit hard and fast, but not have the bulk to take too many hits, however GF seem to think that it's best to put most of their stats in defense.... its similar to Rock types, GF seem to think that they should be the most defensive Pokemon but their types are just awful. (see: Probopass, Bastiodon and Aggon)
It's actually kind of ironic since Aurorus, the first Rock/Ice Pokemon isn't actually defensively based, which is a bit off considering that GF has this dumb idea that Ice and Rock are both defensive typings. Maybe they actually realised it sucked defensively
But seriously, Aurorus is looking to be one of the worst typed fossil Pokemon.... At least Archeops has amazing attack and speed stats to take advantage of before Defeatist kicks in.
Aurorus is 4x weak to one of the most common offensive types, 2x weak to 4 others (well, Grass isn't hugely common), and its second 4x weakness is probably gonna get more prominence due to the advent of Fairy.
Welcome to NU, Aurorus!
(its just a shame that Aurorus' type sucks, since design wise it is pure aces)

Like, I think Ice types should be built more like Weavile as opposed to Avalugg, Articuno and the rest - well, Avalugg maybe not the best example, because it's defense is great but it's special defense isn't.

Yeah it doesn't get much worse than Rock/Ice ):

Well, in my opinion, all types should have a good enough defensive balance (resistances vs weaknesses) in case any Pokemon of their type happens to be built for a defensive role. Because eventually, a Fire Pokemon with huge defenses is going to show up.
But the thing is, it won't be a problem, because on the type chart right now, Fire is doing amazing. Conceptually it screams offense, but for some reason, gamefreak thought it needed another defensive boost lol. The only tougher types are Ghost and Steel, which is extremely weird to me. I never expected Fire to have a higher defensive score than Water xD

Fire = fire, heat, sun

Water = water, fish

Flying = birds, air elemental, flying or soaring creatures
WEA - electric (ever seen a bird hit by lighning?)

Ground = earth, dirt, sand, mud, deserts

Just some smart-assery about type descriptions:

I wouldn't put sun-related under Fire-type.
Because
1-Grass pokemon/abilities/moves have more relation to the sun than Fire
2-Heliolisk has an additional Normal type due to being charged by the sun
So its like "sound". Used by pokemon who have other types, like Seismitoad and Noivern..but if there are no actual types prominent enough, it might justify a Normal type, like Exploud and Pyroar.

Fish are not exclusive to the Water type. The egg-groups are there to distinguish "species".
Just because something lives in water (ie most fish-based pokemon), doesn't mean its prominent element is Water. There could very well be any combination of Poison/Ground/Electric/Dark/etc fish that aren't part Water but live in Water anyway.

Birds...same as fish. Flying is a skill, not a species.
And no I haven't seen a bird get hit by lightning...have you??

Ground is a concept, its composition isn't crucial. None of those attributes are exlcusive to it, and some are even more prominent features for Rock (I mean Sandstorm is Rock-type for example).

There's some other things they can do as well, such as creating a new weakness for Electric.

You meant a move that works like Freeze-Dry, but I wouldn't mind Electric actually gaining a second weakness.
It bugged me since the beginning that Electric, such a basic elemental type is so special, it only has one weakness.
I'd throw Grass on there :^)
Still unsure about the explanation for that, but Grass already resists Electric for some reason, which could be extrapolated to justify the weakness.

I also think it'd be cool to have a mutually weak pair of types as opposed to just types weak to themselves (Ghost and Dragon).

The more realistic duo for this to me are Psychic and Ghost.
Psychic is kinda boring on the offense anyway, while Ghost is right behind Steel in defensive superiority.
And it would bring the nostalgic lie that Ghost is weak to Psy to life (it was due to the only Ghost being part Poison in gen 1).

It's a bummer that the grass type still retains its five harsh weaknesses. I think the Poison and Flying weaknesses are less important compared to fire, ice, and bug. While birds may eat seeds, the wind disperses them into different locations and thus provides the plants more room to flourish. It's more of a balance than anything else. With Poison...I understand why, but I don't like it. Plants can survive different poisons easily, just ask the weeds in my driveway. Most are for pesky insects that are eating flowers or invading one's home (though I'm not saying that poison could not kill a plant). I would remove these two weaknesses so the Grass type isn't as underwhelming.

As much as I like buffs to the Grass type (since its inferior both offensively and defensively to the other 2 starter types),
I don't think Poison should be nerfed to being strong against a single type just after it finally crawled out of that hole.




phew!

these are my 5932941 cents to the discussion so far.

I just hope gamefreak doesn't wait another 6 gens to adjust the type chart so slightly, because there is definitely room for improvement.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

You meant a move that works like Freeze-Dry, but I wouldn't mind Electric actually gaining a second weakness.
It bugged me since the beginning that Electric, such a basic elemental type is so special, it only has one weakness.
I'd throw Grass on there :^)
Still unsure about the explanation for that, but Grass already resists Electric for some reason, which could be extrapolated to justify the weakness.

Not sure if that would work. I think the reason Grass is resistant to Electric is because plant life is usually grounded, by that logic, Grass being super effective against Electric wouldn't make sense because the element itself can't weaken electricity.

 

[professorlight]

Fire = fire, heat, sun

Water = water, fish

Flying = birds, air elemental, flying or soaring creatures
WEA - electric (ever seen a bird hit by lighning?)

Ground = earth, dirt, sand, mud, deserts

Just some smart-assery about type descriptions:

I wouldn't put sun-related under Fire-type.
Because
1-Grass pokemon/abilities/moves have more relation to the sun than Fire
2-Heliolisk has an additional Normal type due to being charged by the sun
So its like "sound". Used by pokemon who have other types, like Seismitoad and Noivern..but if there are no actual types prominent enough, it might justify a Normal type, like Exploud and Pyroar.

Fish are not exclusive to the Water type. The egg-groups are there to distinguish "species".
Just because something lives in water (ie most fish-based pokemon), doesn't mean its prominent element is Water. There could very well be any combination of Poison/Ground/Electric/Dark/etc fish that aren't part Water but live in Water anyway.

Birds...same as fish. Flying is a skill, not a species.
And no I haven't seen a bird get hit by lightning...have you??

Ground is a concept, its composition isn't crucial. None of those attributes are exlcusive to it, and some are even more prominent features for Rock (I mean Sandstorm is Rock-type for example).

And here I thought I had a problem with long-winded posts... you have a problem, darling, we should make a support group or something... longposters anonymous... I don't know.

Ground is a complicated type, yes, I missed gravity there, as you pointed out in other response, and that's a much better classfication; ground type is... just the ground. But you can't deny that there is also something of an element there, be it sand, dirt or whatever.
Sandstorm is very weird, because it wouldn't have been any different if it was ground type... it's not an offensive move... so I've got no clue why they went with rock type and sp.def boost to rock types for it.

I won't give up sun, however.
Yes, many grass type pokemon have a connection to the sun, but that's because their inspirations hve a strong connection to the sun; it's hardly part of their concept.
Heliolisk and helioptile are a disgrace. Their abilities and movepool betray their very core, creating a perfectly avoidable gameplay and story segregation. They are supposed to be all about solar power and the electrical energy it can generate, yet they heal in rain, are harmed by heat and the sun or benefit more from sandstorms than sunlight or gain power in sunlight but they are harmed by it. that is incredibly stupid. electrify, their signature move, obeys to their species of generator pokemon, but wouldn't have been better giving them a unique ability that raises sp. att in sunlight, rather than give them a useless exclusive move? and let's not forget they can't even learn sunny day (a fire type move) and solarbeam by level up, nor by TM, while they do learn rain dance and sandstorm.
We should never use specific pokemon to explain typings, but heliolisk and helioptile are pretty much the worst argument you could have used.
As for the normal type, I don't know the reasons they have it, but I'm pretty sure it's not for the sun. Volcarona is the sun pokemon and a fire type, and solrock learns fie type moves out of nowhere, and by TM too. I think that's enough to say that the concept of sun is covered by the fire type.