How to Represent the Flying Type in the TCG

crystal_pidgeot said:
Talonflame being colorless does it no favors but what about a flying type can't work? Its gets its own symbol and some Pokemon become flying weak and or flying resistant. A Grass weak Lanturn would be cool but mixing it up seems to take too much work for the developers and why would that Pokemon be Psychic weak?

My b meant to say resistance but my brain derped.

Flying is just too much of an augmenting mechanic in the tcg, it's used to mix up weakness and resistances, it's a secondary type like it is in the games. I just can't see any real benefit to having flying specifically, the exact same points can be made about any of the integrated types.
 
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Those are all true. Ice shouldn't be hitting fire for weakness and it would be cool to see an Articuno card with a fire weakness but from a simplistic stand point, Water and Ice is fine as it is. Not that a flying should exist in the TCG but it would offer more type interactions versus the one Fairy offers in which I do agree with you. Fairy should have never existed but neither should have Dragon but they exist now. We should just put a colorless weakness on some cards and not add another type to the game.



Talonflame being colorless does it no favors but what about a flying type can't work? Its gets its own symbol and some Pokemon become flying weak and or flying resistant. A Grass weak Lanturn would be cool but mixing it up seems to take too much work for the developers and why would that Pokemon be Psychic weak?

Dragon being weak against dragon is not the same as dragon as colorless being weak to colorless. If dragon was colorless, both pokemon that used specific energies, AKA dragon, and pokemon that used any energy, AKA normal and flying, can hit dragon for weakness. Now that Dragon was its own type, only dragon can hit dragon for weakness, not Normal and Flying. Fairy was a mistake, Dragon was not. Remember that I said that only Dragon is allowed to be weak against Dragon because Dragon uses 2 or more specific energy for attacks, and nothing is allowed to be weak against colorless because colorless uses any energy for attacks.
 
Flying type is a secondary type in all but 3 cases, in the TCG it seems more of a mechanic, there for weakness and resistance diversity and to give some cards an alternate colour. As a sort-of-collector seeing cards like Talonflame and Aerodactyl on a white backdrop for a change looks very pretty and also it allows the pokemon to be played in different ways though some kinds of trainer cards designed to work excluisvely for colourless couldnt hurt.

My b meant to say resistance but my brain derped.

Flying is just too much of an augmenting mechanic in the tcg, it's used to mix up weakness and resistances, it's a secondary type like it is in the games. I just can't see any real benefit to having flying specifically, the exact same points can be made about any of the integrated types.[/QUOTE]

Oh, right. Colorless Pokemon use to resist Psychic. I should have put that together. My bad on that. A benefit would be Fighting types wouldn't be exclusively to Psychic, which means things like Machamp EX and Gallade EX would not be weak to Mewtwo EX. A Psychic weakness is just bad for them to have but they could have a colorless Weakness instead. It makes these fighting types that would get killed by powerful Psychic playable. It adds another interaction to those types, like how water types can be grass or lightning weak and some fighting types could be water or grass weak. We don't need another type but we could use what we have now.

Like I said before, when the TCG came out, there were only 3 Flying type moves in the game, maybe 4. Forgot about Drill Peck but a lot of the flying moves now were once Normal type.

Dragon being weak against dragon is not the same as dragon as colorless being weak to colorless. If dragon was colorless, both pokemon that used specific energies, AKA dragon, and pokemon that used any energy, AKA normal and flying, can hit dragon for weakness. Now that Dragon was its own type, only dragon can hit dragon for weakness, not Normal and Flying. Fairy was a mistake, Dragon was not. Remember that I said that only Dragon is allowed to be weak against Dragon because Dragon uses 2 or more specific energy for attacks, and nothing is allowed to be weak against colorless because colorless uses any energy for attacks.

Yes, Dragon should be weak to Dragon. I don't want the Dragon type to be weak against Normal/Flying type but I also don't want Mewtwo to be weak to Nidoking but it is. A funny story though. Many years ago in a tournament, I KOed a Rayquaza ex with a Eevee because of weakness. It was super odd.
 
My b meant to say resistance but my brain derped.

Flying is just too much of an augmenting mechanic in the tcg, it's used to mix up weakness and resistances, it's a secondary type like it is in the games. I just can't see any real benefit to having flying specifically, the exact same points can be made about any of the integrated types.

Oh, right. Colorless Pokemon use to resist Psychic. I should have put that together. My bad on that. A benefit would be Fighting types wouldn't be exclusively to Psychic, which means things like Machamp EX and Gallade EX would not be weak to Mewtwo EX. A Psychic weakness is just bad for them to have but they could have a colorless Weakness instead. It makes these fighting types that would get killed by powerful Psychic playable. It adds another interaction to those types, like how water types can be grass or lightning weak and some fighting types could be water or grass weak. We don't need another type but we could use what we have now.

Like I said before, when the TCG came out, there were only 3 Flying type moves in the game, maybe 4. Forgot about Drill Peck but a lot of the flying moves now were once Normal type.



Yes, Dragon should be weak to Dragon. I don't want the Dragon type to be weak against Normal/Flying type but I also don't want Mewtwo to be weak to Nidoking but it is. A funny story though. Many years ago in a tournament, I KOed a Rayquaza ex with a Eevee because of weakness. It was super odd.[/QUOTE]

Do you know how to ensure psychics don't get killed by poison as psychic? I sure do. See that little eye symbol under the weakness for Mewtwo? Change that to the Darkness symbol. Problem solved.

To add to it, move ghost types from psychic to darkness. Poison as psychic would have psychic weakness, although nidokings can kill nidokings, whatever, it's the TCG, it can't be perfectly like the video games. Psychic as psychic would have darkness weakness, because they are weak to ghost and dark. Dark as darkness would be weak to fighting. Ghost as darkness would be weak to darkness because they are weak to dark and ghost in the games.

So basically saying, you'd rather be killed by a colorless EX that can use any type of energy to power up attacks and therefore can be run in almost any deck, rather than a Mewtwo EX that specifically has to use psychic energy and therefore run in some specific decks, and don't go saying "add a new flying type that uses its own energy", because fairy type being the 9th type to use its own energy is already a mistake, with darkness and metal stretching it.

Your machamp would only be even MORE unplayable as it gets killed by the likes of ratata, that can be put in decks running any of Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, Metal, or Fairy energy, while Mewtwo must be running Psychic energy, so all in all, you basically want your Machamp EX to be killed by more decks.

If flying was indeed its own type, and they made a flying EX pokemon, then you'd be back here complaining how your Machamp is manhandled by (replace Mewtwo EX with flying pokemon EX), so it really makes no difference.
 
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They could add effects similar to what Zebstrika does. Something like an attack that says "If your opponent's active Pokemon is a Grass type, this attack does 50 more damage"

It's representation without totally offsetting what little balance there is.
 
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They could add effects similar to what Zebstrika does. Something like an attack that says "If your opponent's active Pokemon is a Grass type, this attack does 50 more damage"

It's representation without totally offsetting what little balance there is.

I dont think replacing a mechanic with an effect would be best. Zebstrika doesn't replace a weakness/resistance system for abilities or attacks.

Oh, right. Colorless Pokemon use to resist Psychic. I should have put that together. My bad on that. A benefit would be Fighting types wouldn't be exclusively to Psychic, which means things like Machamp EX and Gallade EX would not be weak to Mewtwo EX. A Psychic weakness is just bad for them to have but they could have a colorless Weakness instead. It makes these fighting types that would get killed by powerful Psychic playable. It adds another interaction to those types, like how water types can be grass or lightning weak and some fighting types could be water or grass weak. We don't need another type but we could use what we have now.

Like I said before, when the TCG came out, there were only 3 Flying type moves in the game, maybe 4. Forgot about Drill Peck but a lot of the flying moves now were once Normal type.



Yes, Dragon should be weak to Dragon. I don't want the Dragon type to be weak against Normal/Flying type but I also don't want Mewtwo to be weak to Nidoking but it is. A funny story though. Many years ago in a tournament, I KOed a Rayquaza ex with a Eevee because of weakness. It was super odd.

Do you know how to ensure psychics don't get killed by poison as psychic? I sure do. See that little eye symbol under the weakness for Mewtwo? Change that to the Darkness symbol. Problem solved.

To add to it, move ghost types from psychic to darkness. Poison as psychic would have psychic weakness, although nidokings can kill nidokings, whatever, it's the TCG, it can't be perfectly like the video games. Psychic as psychic would have darkness weakness, because they are weak to ghost and dark. Dark as darkness would be weak to fighting. Ghost as darkness would be weak to darkness because they are weak to dark and ghost in the games.

So basically saying, you'd rather be killed by a colorless EX that can use any type of energy to power up attacks and therefore can be run in almost any deck, rather than a Mewtwo EX that specifically has to use psychic energy and therefore run in some specific decks, and don't go saying "add a new flying type that uses its own energy", because fairy type being the 9th type to use its own energy is already a mistake, with darkness and metal stretching it.

Your machamp would only be even MORE unplayable as it gets killed by the likes of ratata, that can be put in decks running any of Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, Metal, or Fairy energy, while Mewtwo must be running Psychic energy, so all in all, you basically want your Machamp EX to be killed by more decks.

If flying was indeed its own type, and they made a flying EX pokemon, then you'd be back here complaining how your Machamp is manhandled by (replace Mewtwo EX with flying pokemon EX), so it really makes no difference.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure how you see this as complaining. The point is to see how the type can be better represented in the TCG. Weakness is something that can make or break a type of match up and many types are multiweak to some types but in this case, Fighting types aren't only Psychic weak and Bug/Grass types aren't only Fire weak.

Like I said before, I don't care if Flying gets its on type or if they just expanded what the Colorless type can hit. It adds type diversity and interactions to the game. Other types could use the same work. Fire could have a Fighting weakness and like you said, move Ghost to the Dark type and make Psychic Pokemon Darkness weak but where does this leave Zapdos, who is Lightning weak? Zapdos could get a Water weakness.
 
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I dont think replacing a mechanic with an effect would be best. Zebstrika doesn't replace a weakness/resistance system for abilities or attacks.



Do you know how to ensure psychics don't get killed by poison as psychic? I sure do. See that little eye symbol under the weakness for Mewtwo? Change that to the Darkness symbol. Problem solved.

To add to it, move ghost types from psychic to darkness. Poison as psychic would have psychic weakness, although nidokings can kill nidokings, whatever, it's the TCG, it can't be perfectly like the video games. Psychic as psychic would have darkness weakness, because they are weak to ghost and dark. Dark as darkness would be weak to fighting. Ghost as darkness would be weak to darkness because they are weak to dark and ghost in the games.

So basically saying, you'd rather be killed by a colorless EX that can use any type of energy to power up attacks and therefore can be run in almost any deck, rather than a Mewtwo EX that specifically has to use psychic energy and therefore run in some specific decks, and don't go saying "add a new flying type that uses its own energy", because fairy type being the 9th type to use its own energy is already a mistake, with darkness and metal stretching it.

Your machamp would only be even MORE unplayable as it gets killed by the likes of ratata, that can be put in decks running any of Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, Metal, or Fairy energy, while Mewtwo must be running Psychic energy, so all in all, you basically want your Machamp EX to be killed by more decks.

If flying was indeed its own type, and they made a flying EX pokemon, then you'd be back here complaining how your Machamp is manhandled by (replace Mewtwo EX with flying pokemon EX), so it really makes no difference.

I'm not sure how you see this as complaining. The point is to see how the type can be better represented in the TCG. Weakness is something that can make or break a type of match up and many types are multiweak to some types but in this case, Fighting types aren't only Psychic weak and Bug/Grass types aren't only Fire weak.

Like I said before, I don't care if Flying gets its on type or if they just expanded what the Colorless type can hit. It adds type diversity and interactions to the game. Other types could use the same work. Fire could have a Fighting weakness and like you said, move Ghost to the Dark type and make Psychic Pokemon Darkness weak but where does this leave Zapdos, who is Lightning weak? Zapdos could get a Water weakness.[/QUOTE]

This would only make the game more complicated. Remember that you can't use video game logic in a trading card game. As I said before, you play Machamp with psychic weakness, and opponent plays psychic deck, you are screwed. You play Machamp with flying weakness, opponent plays colorless, or "flying" deck, you are screwed. It's exactly the same thing.

I will say this again. Colorless should never ever hit anything for weakness. It is a drawback for being able to use any type of energy to power up attacks. If you want to play a fire deck, and opponent plays water, then sucks to be you. It ensures you to play a 2 type deck, rather than having a single type deck, which makes it easier to draw the energies you need to power up your attacks, compared to a 2 type deck, which makes it harder to draw the energies you need to power up your attacks. You basically want to play a fire type deck, and get around the weakness of water by having some fire cards with fighting weakness, rather than splashing some grass or lightning cards to counteract the fact your opponent plays water.

I would say types that are weak to multiple types, fighting for example, has more of an advantage over types that are weak to only one type, like fire and grass. If you run a pure fighting deck, and this includes rock and ground types as well, when you run across a psychic deck, you can switch out your machamp for a golem, and you would still be able to consistently draw the correct energies to power attacks, compared to using a 2 type deck where you draw a lightning energy when you need a fire energy.

Do you even know how flying types are represented? The fact that fighting types do less damage to them. That is how they are represented. Most cards don't even have resistances, despite that all video game types have weaknesses and resistances.

I also believe this game is meant to be simple. No point in making people memorize the weakness and resistances of a card, or try to read the card every time they see it. Right now, if it is a fire type, they can surely bet on the fact that it will be weak against water, or an water type that represents an ice pokemon, they can be sure that it will be metal weak.
 
I dont think replacing a mechanic with an effect would be best. Zebstrika doesn't replace a weakness/resistance system for abilities or attacks.

Typing is a mechanic in several senses. In the TCG, it's just been heavily simplified. If you really wanted to expand representation of a given type, I wouldn't discredit having specific attacks that hit for extra damage against certain types of Pokemon. That's essentially how types work in-game on an offensive level, no?

Just sayin'
 
Typing is a mechanic in several senses. In the TCG, it's just been heavily simplified. If you really wanted to expand representation of a given type, I wouldn't discredit having specific attacks that hit for extra damage against certain types of Pokemon. That's essentially how types work in-game on an offensive level, no?

Just sayin'

Yeah, thats true but Zebstrika is good because it punishes the colorless for being Lightning weak and having a Fighting resistance. Yes and attack or ability like that would be good to have around but the point is to make some Pokemon colorless weak so they can hit for weakness too.

This would only make the game more complicated. Remember that you can't use video game logic in a trading card game. As I said before, you play Machamp with psychic weakness, and opponent plays psychic deck, you are screwed. You play Machamp with flying weakness, opponent plays colorless, or "flying" deck, you are screwed. It's exactly the same thing.

The point of this is making it to where Machamp doesn't get screw by Mewtwo EX or some other Psychic type. Machamp could be either Psychic or Colorless weak. Colorless isn't a popular type right now but Psychic is and giving Machamp a colorless weakness improves its performance in the meta.

I will say this again. Colorless should never ever hit anything for weakness. It is a drawback for being able to use any type of energy to power up attacks. If you want to play a fire deck, and opponent plays water, then sucks to be you. It ensures you to play a 2 type deck, rather than having a single type deck, which makes it easier to draw the energies you need to power up your attacks, compared to a 2 type deck, which makes it harder to draw the energies you need to power up your attacks. You basically want to play a fire type deck, and get around the weakness of water by having some fire cards with fighting weakness, rather than splashing some grass or lightning cards to counteract the fact your opponent plays water.

Thats not a real argument though. Many Colorless Pokemon aren't viable at all and require specific decks to work. The lack of support they have always had has been a nerf to the type. On top of that, many Pokemon with colored types are much better using the Colorless type than Colorless Pokemon. I'm not sure what the rest of the point has to do with this though?

I would say types that are weak to multiple types, fighting for example, has more of an advantage over types that are weak to only one type, like fire and grass. If you run a pure fighting deck, and this includes rock and ground types as well, when you run across a psychic deck, you can switch out your machamp for a golem, and you would still be able to consistently draw the correct energies to power attacks, compared to using a 2 type deck where you draw a lightning energy when you need a fire energy.

I'm not sure what this point has to do with anything.

Do you even know how flying types are represented? The fact that fighting types do less damage to them. That is how they are represented. Most cards don't even have resistances, despite that all video game types have weaknesses and resistances.

Partly, yes.

I also believe this game is meant to be simple. No point in making people memorize the weakness and resistances of a card, or try to read the card every time they see it. Right now, if it is a fire type, they can surely bet on the fact that it will be weak against water, or an water type that represents an ice pokemon, they can be sure that it will be metal weak.

The most complicated thing in the Pokemon TCG were Pokemon Legend. Adding more types doesn't make things harder and what I suggest is just make some Fighting and Grass types weak to colorless types. All that means is putting a colorless symbol on the weakness slot of some cards.
 
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Yeah, thats true but Zebstrika is good because it punishes the colorless for being Lightning weak and having a Fighting resistance. Yes and attack or ability like that would be good to have around but the point is to make some Pokemon colorless weak so they can hit for weakness too.



The point of this is making it to where Machamp doesn't get screw by Mewtwo EX or some other Psychic type. Machamp could be either Psychic or Colorless weak. Colorless isn't a popular type right now but Psychic is and giving Machamp a colorless weakness improves its performance in the meta.



Thats not a real argument though. Many Colorless Pokemon aren't viable at all and require specific decks to work. The lack of support they have always had has been a nerf to the type. On top of that, many Pokemon with colored types are much better using the Colorless type than Colorless Pokemon. I'm not sure what the rest of the point has to do with this though?



I'm not sure what this point has to do with anything.



Partly, yes.



The most complicated thing in the Pokemon TCG were Pokemon Legend. Adding more types doesn't make things harder and what I suggest is just make some Fighting and Grass types weak to colorless types. All that means is putting a colorless symbol on the weakness slot of some cards.

Colorless is designed to be a splashable type anyway. I guess you could make a mono colorless deck if you wanted to. Here are some facts. You can put colorless pokemon into any deck for the sole fact that they use any energy. Because of that, the drawback is that they don't hit any type of pokemon for weakness. Colorless pokemon, and dragon as well, is supposed to be mixed in with the other 9 types of pokemon that use their own energies, much like how in MTG, you mix colorless artifacts and multicolor cards with single color white, blue, black, red, or green cards.

I will say this over and over and over. There should NEVER be a colorless symbol under weakness on ALL pokemon cards made this point on. It isn't to say that the game designers will follow this rule though, as it is my rule that I made up.

You are also saying that a single type needs more weaknesses. Saying that Machamp should have psychic, and a different Machamp card should have colorless, is no different than saying that you are adding another weakness to one particular type. So rather than fighting having grass, water, and psychic weakness, you are adding colorless, meaning that if you run a mono fighting deck, by using your colorless weakness Machamp, you can bypass anyone using a psychic deck. A better example is a type that has only one weakness, like grass, who are usually weak to fire. If you run a grass deck, you have to splash another type, like water, to counteract the fact that your opponent is using fire. What you are saying is that your grass type pokemon is getting killed by fire type, and you are "complaining" to the game designers to design grass types who aren't weak to fire just so you can play with your grass pokemon. If anything, there should be less types that are strong against a certain type. It forces you to splash another type to support the weakness of the first type. Mono type decks are more consistent than multi type decks. Fighting already has 3 different weaknesses, which is more of an advantage over a type with only 1 weakness like grass. If you run a mono grass deck, and your opponent plays fire, you are screwed. If you run a mono fighting deck, and your opponent runs psychic, you have your golems and sandslashes who are fighting, but not weak to psychic. What you are basically suggesting is to make it easier to run mono type decks, rather than designing it in a way where plaeyrs have to run multi type decks, but I guess you wouldn't understand as you think this has nothing to do with any of this.

Now if you meant that the machamp have both a psychic and a colorless symbol for weakness, it makes the machamp even worse. Not only does it get killed by psychic decks, it gets killed by any deck that uses colorless pokemon, making it even more weak than if it just had psychic weakness.

Just putting it out there, you do realize that colorless can use any energy for attacks while other types must use a specific energy for attacks, and therefore colorless pokemon can be used in any deck, right? You do know that right? There is a huge reason why colorless takes a back seat over Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, Metal, and Fairy. I've also gone through, in other threads, why it is a bad idea to add another type that uses its own energy, for the sole fact that this is a trading card game, where you have to draw cards and build decks, and not only that, pull cards from a set of 100 to 200 cards, and by adding another type that uses its own energy, you are ensuring that each type will have even less pokemon per set.

Just asking all of you out there, how would you feel if a specific pokemon had different cards who had different weaknesses? Would you like it, or would you like the consistent same weakness? How many weaknesses should a particular type have? How much is too much and how much is too little? Remember that less weakness in a type means that you might have to splash another type in your deck in case you run into a deck that is strong against your deck. Having more weaknesses mean that you have pokemon of the same type that can back up the fact that the first pokemon is weak to a certain type, because the second pokemon of the same type doesn't have the same weakness.
 
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Yeah, thats true but Zebstrika is good because it punishes the colorless for being Lightning weak and having a Fighting resistance. Yes and attack or ability like that would be good to have around but the point is to make some Pokemon colorless weak so they can hit for weakness too.
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So Signofzeta explained the issues with this pretty well. You're going into territory that upsets the balance that the game was originally built on, which was akin to using Artifact Creatures in MTG. They anticipated seeing multicolored decks early on, and used Colorless as a way to create offensive consistency when you didn't have the right kind of energy for another Pokemon.

The gameplay reasoning as to why Colorless Pokemon never hit for weakness is probably something like this: An attack from a Colorless Pokemon is like attributeless damage. Why would anything be weak to damage that has no attribute?

And yeah, you can still say "the answer would be to introduce a new type!", if you wanted to, but that quickly goes back to the original counterargument against further diversifying what they put into the tcg. Quite frankly, they should have stopped before making Fairy a tcg type, but that's for another discussion.
 
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