XY How will they treat HM's in the 6th generation?

BayBeeBoi

Ice Beaming
Member
Hi guys... first of all I'm so excited for Gen VI... Anyways, I was wondering about HMs.

I really dislike having to have an HM Slave, because well it takes up a spot on your team. I'm sure all of you, or most of you agree that teaching a move like Cut to one of your actual team pokemon is kind of rediculous, because of how weak it is.

How do you think they will treat HMs in this generation, do you think they will keep it the same or do you think there will be some changes made. If so, what?
 
RE: HM's

I hope they take out HM's (just make them normal TM's) or make them removable. I think that we will see HM's for these 2 Gens (IV and IIV). Maybe there will be some other HM.
 
RE: HMs

I would like it if they made them TM's instead, but keeping the name HM to show that they are important. It would just be nice if you could get rid of the move with out having to go to the Move Deleter.
 
RE: HMs

HMs were a good game design choice. They were annoying, yes, but they made you think ahead. Would you want to fill a space in your party with a HM slave in case you come across a tree with an item behind it or would you rather just overlook it? It's the same way with actual road blocks sometimes you would run past an area where you would encounter Pokemon just to find that you have to go back through it with a HM knowing Pokemon.

I agree that HMs should be removed, I'm just giving a different view.
 
RE: HMs

Strength, Surf, Fly, Waterfall, Rock Climb, and even, early on, cut were ok moves.

It makes you think ahead, for what pokemon to have on your team for those moves, but making them TMs would be perfectly fine and even preferred, especially since TMs never go bad.
 
RE: HMs

Or they could just make the HMs stronger so having them on one of your actual pokemon isn't a waste. I don't mind having them around that much as long as it's not as abundant as it was in... say Sinnoh.
 
RE: HMs

HMs are a good idea for the most part, but there do need to be some changes made. They shouldn't remove them for Key Items because it's a bit inappropriate to do something without your Pokemon. Furthermore, allowing you to delete HMs at will is also a bad idea because it can lead to situations in which the player becomes trapped. For instance, if you trade over a Pokemon that knows Surf before you get it, Surf to an area that cannot be left without it, and then deleting Surf. It's a stupid mistake to make, I know, but this kind of idiotproofing is necessary, especially in a game aimed at kids. I think the main thing they need to focus on is making them more useful, both in and out of battle. Inside of battle, they need to be made to be powerful and/or useful moves that people would actually want to use. To that end, they need to be a reasonable base power (I'd say about 60+) or useful in some other way. Furthermore, the HM list needs to be a diverse amount of types. Taking into account all HMs that have ever existed, we've had 4 Normal type HMs (Cut, Strength, Flash, and Rock Climb), 4 Water type HMs (Surf, Whirlpool, Waterfall, and Dive), 2 Flying type HMs (Fly and Defog), and 1 Fighting type HM (Rock Smash). Now of course we only have a couple of these per game, but the diversity for each game is equally terrible. It gets a bit ridiculous for the Water type HMs especially, since it means that you have to load up your Water type with them in those games. To that end, let's see less Normal and Water type HMs and more of other types. As for outside of battle, HMs need to have some crucial function beyond the ability to clear random obstacles or warp to a certain area. Not every field move has been or needs to be an HM. So for the ones that currently are like that, they either need to be given more use or downgraded to TMs. With that in mind, here's my idea of what should happen to HMs:

HM 01- Strength: No real changes need to be made to this aside from possibly a change in type (Fighting, maybe?).
HM 02- Fly: Please give this move some better use. Being able to go back to practically any city ever visited is great and all, but still not useful enough to be an HM. What would be interesting for Fly is if you could actually explore the skies, similar to Dive but hopefully done in a way that could be considered unique (I don't really know how, though).
HM 03- Surf: Absolutely nothing needs to be done about this HM, it is without a doubt the most useful HM ever created.
HM 04- Dive: It was fine as it was in RSE, bring it back to its former glory.
HM 05- Dig: Making Dig as an HM would to a lot to help the lack of diversity in the HM list. It's Ground type which is something we don't already have, plus it has a lot of potential as a field move. A good use for it is if you could use it to create paths through loose dirt. For instance, if there's a rock wall in your way and there's no other way through than a column of loose dirt, you can use Dig to clear a path through the wall. Or if the floor is loose you can Dig a pitfall to a lower floor.

Cut, Waterfall, and Whirpool would be made TMs.
 
RE: HMs

Bolt the Cat said:
HMs are a good idea for the most part, but there do need to be some changes made. They shouldn't remove them for Key Items because it's a bit inappropriate to do something without your Pokemon. Furthermore, allowing you to delete HMs at will is also a bad idea because it can lead to situations in which the player becomes trapped. For instance, if you trade over a Pokemon that knows Surf before you get it, Surf to an area that cannot be left without it, and then deleting Surf. It's a stupid mistake to make, I know, but this kind of idiotproofing is necessary, especially in a game aimed at kids. I think the main thing they need to focus on is making them more useful, both in and out of battle. Inside of battle, they need to be made to be powerful and/or useful moves that people would actually want to use. To that end, they need to be a reasonable base power (I'd say about 60+) or useful in some other way. Furthermore, the HM list needs to be a diverse amount of types. Taking into account all HMs that have ever existed, we've had 4 Normal type HMs (Cut, Strength, Flash, and Rock Climb), 4 Water type HMs (Surf, Whirlpool, Waterfall, and Dive), 1 Flying type HM (Fly), and 1 Fighting type HM (Rock Smash). Now of course we only have a couple of these per game, but the diversity for each game is equally terrible. It gets a bit ridiculous for the Water type HMs especially, since it means that you have to load up your Water type with them in those games. To that end, let's see less Normal and Water type HMs and more of other types. As for outside of battle, HMs need to have some crucial function beyond the ability to clear random obstacles or warp to a certain area. Not every field move has been or needs to be an HM. So for the ones that currently are like that, they either need to be given more use or downgraded to TMs. With that in mind, here's my idea of what should happen to HMs:

HM 01- Strength: No real changes need to be made to this aside from possibly a change in type (Fighting, maybe?).
HM 02- Fly: Please give this move some better use. Being able to go back to practically any city ever visited is great and all, but still not useful enough to be an HM. What would be interesting for Fly is if you could actually explore the skies, similar to Dive but hopefully done in a way that could be considered unique (I don't really know how, though).
HM 03- Surf: Absolutely nothing needs to be done about this HM, it is without a doubt the most useful HM ever created.
HM 04- Dive: It was fine as it was in RSE, bring it back to its former glory.
HM 05- Dig: Making Dig as an HM would to a lot to help the lack of diversity in the HM list. It's Ground type which is something we don't already have, plus it has a lot of potential as a field move. A good use for it is if you could use it to create paths through loose dirt. For instance, if there's a rock wall in your way and there's no other way through than a column of loose dirt, you can use Dig to clear a path through the wall. Or if the floor is loose you can Dig a pitfall to a lower floor.

Cut, Waterfall, and Whirpool would be made TMs.

First off I want to correct you on 2 points. 1) you can't use the HM that is on one of your pokemon until you earn the badge that allows you to use it. So the "idiot proofing" is already done. You would already have the HM by the time you could use it so yeah. 2) Rock Smash was down graded to a TM. We don't need more HM's because the only huge notable differences between TM's and HM's (as of BW) is that HM's can't be deleted (unless you go to a move deleter), they are used for a physical obstacle in the game, and you can't use them until you get the corresponding gym badge.
 
RE: HMs

Professer K said:
you can't use the HM that is on one of your pokemon until you earn the badge that allows you to use it. So the "idiot proofing" is already done. You would already have the HM by the time you could use it so yeah.

They removed that restriction in 5th gen, so that could in fact happen.

Professer K said:
2) Rock Smash was down graded to a TM.

I was counting past HMs as well.

Professer K said:
We don't need more HM's because the only huge notable differences between TM's and HM's (as of BW) is that HM's can't be deleted (unless you go to a move deleter), they are used for a physical obstacle in the game, and you can't use them until you get the corresponding gym badge.

I fail to see the logic in removing HMs for any of these reasons.

Trainerhan1 said:
You forgot Defog from DPPt, which was ridicules to be considered an HM.

I had a feeling I was forgetting one. Fixed.
 
RE: HMs

Bolt the Cat said:
Professer K said:
you can't use the HM that is on one of your pokemon until you earn the badge that allows you to use it. So the "idiot proofing" is already done. You would already have the HM by the time you could use it so yeah.

They removed that restriction in 5th gen, so that could in fact happen.

Professer K said:
2) Rock Smash was down graded to a TM.

I was counting past HMs as well.

Professer K said:
We don't need more HM's because the only huge notable differences between TM's and HM's (as of BW) is that HM's can't be deleted (unless you go to a move deleter), they are used for a physical obstacle in the game, and you can't use them until you get the corresponding gym badge.

I fail to see the logic in removing HMs for any of these reasons.

Trainerhan1 said:
You forgot Defog from DPPt, which was ridicules to be considered an HM.

I had a feeling I was forgetting one. Fixed.

I was only pointing out the differences between the two. Ever since they made it so TM's are reusable It kinda maked HM's pointless. I mean there only use is to get around obstacles really.
 
RE: HMs

Professer K said:
I was only pointing out the differences between the two. Ever since they made it so TM's are reusable It kinda maked HM's pointless. I mean there only use is to get around obstacles really.

If that were the only thing that made HMs useful than they would've been eliminated 5th gen. The reason HMs are distinguished from TMs is because they offer something significant to the gameplay. Strength is useful for puzzles, and as of 5th gen it's useful for blocking certain paths until a certain point (for instance, one boulder in BW2 prevents you from going to Giant Chasm from Rt. 13 until you've gone there from Rt. 22). Surf opens up a new level of exploration and adds another method for catching Pokemon. Dive, as I pointed out earlier, adds even more depth to water routes, turning otherwise plain water routes into complex mazes. HMs exist because they're so important that you'll probably want them most of the time anyway, if they were all just random obstacles like Cut or Rock Smash then they could get away with downgrading them to TMs, but several of them are more useful than that and need that distinction.
 
RE: HMs

Bolt the Cat said:
Professer K said:
I was only pointing out the differences between the two. Ever since they made it so TM's are reusable It kinda maked HM's pointless. I mean there only use is to get around obstacles really.

If that were the only thing that made HMs useful than they would've been eliminated 5th gen. The reason HMs are distinguished from TMs is because they offer something significant to the gameplay. Strength is useful for puzzles, and as of 5th gen it's useful for blocking certain paths until a certain point (for instance, one boulder in BW2 prevents you from going to Giant Chasm from Rt. 13 until you've gone there from Rt. 22). Surf opens up a new level of exploration and adds another method for catching Pokemon. Dive, as I pointed out earlier, adds even more depth to water routes, turning otherwise plain water routes into complex mazes. HMs exist because they're so important that you'll probably want them most of the time anyway, if they were all just random obstacles like Cut or Rock Smash then they could get away with downgrading them to TMs, but several of them are more useful than that and need that distinction.

That is basically what I said. The only difference was mine was generic and condensed where as you expanded on the idea. They are only really used to get past obstacles that are in the game. Notice That I only said obstacles because that was all that was needed. An obstacle can be something as big as I need surf to get to the next town or as small as I need cut so I can get to this other area on the route. Your answer was just more detailed. They are two different ways of phrasing to end up at the same conclusion. HM's are only really used because players need them to get through obstacles. Yes surf does open up a new way of caching pokemon. I just over looked it. However they could make it function closer to a TM like when the made TM's function more like HM's (Only by making them reusable). The only thing that they have to do to HM's IN MY OPINION is make it so you don't have to have a move deleter to get rid of the stupid move. I do agree that HM's are some what important (getting around obstacles and what not) that is why you keep them named HM's.
 
RE: HMs

They just have to be usable without teaching.

*pick Cut/prompt by standing in front of bush and A*
-screnn goes to pokemon team
*pick candidate who can use it*
-pokemon uses Cut, keeps moves.
 
RE: HMs

Mitja said:
They just have to be usable without teaching.

*pick Cut/prompt by standing in front of bush and A*
-screnn goes to pokemon team
*pick candidate who can use it*
-pokemon uses Cut, keeps moves.

Exactly. I always had the idea that each pokemon would have one or two 'skills' as default. You could have a list of 10-15 skills, like Cut, Surf, Fly, Strength, Dig, Rock Climb, Defog, Rock Smash... etc. Maybe add in some new ones like Electric Shock (to open special doors, or kick-start a vehicle) or Float (to rise up through a cave roof opening similar to how Dive works).

These pokemon skills are assigned to every pokemon, and would be separate from a pokemon's moveset. So, say you catch a LV.5 Machop. Its moveset is Low Kick and Leer. But it also has Strength and Rock Smash as its two skills. The skills don't appear on Machop's moveset, but are still usable in the overworld.

HMs are demoted to TM status, and teaching them to a pokemon doesn't affect their usable skills. Extra skills can be taught to pokemon at certain points of the game by Skill Tutors.
 
RE: HMs

Ya.

Instead of HM moves, there should simply be skills Pokemon have inthe overworld.

If you see a bush, any pokemon that can learn slashing moves, can get rid of it.
If you walk into a dark cave, but have an Ampharos with you, its bright as day.
If you have a tough and srong Pokemon and face a boulder, it can be pushed aside.
If you have an airborne Pokemon, it can take you somwhere.
If you have a swimming Pokemon, it can take you over water.
...

You simply wouldn't be able to use them in this manner until you haven't unlocked that, whether its simply by badges or a seperate NPC.
 
RE: HMs

You're trying to bring in elements from Pokemon Ranger is what it seems like. I would not oppose the changes because I hate having to go back just to get a Pokemon with Cut. The only TMs I ever teach for competitive battling are Surf and Waterfall. There really is not much use for any others.
 
RE: HMs

King Arceus said:
You're trying to bring in elements from Pokemon Ranger is what it seems like.

Exactly. Except skills would be available parallel to battle movesets. And because of that, you would have the freedom to include lots more overworld obstacles and puzzles. It would give the game a lot more diversity while preventing the dreaded HM slave problem (Gen 4 was ridiculous).

They can still restrict skills by needing Gym badges to execute them if they wanted. But imagine all the possibilities - Flame Throw to clear bramble bushes, Dig to open underground tunnels, Drill to break open cracks to enter caves, Electric Shock to open stuck automatic doors, Floodwater to fill a drain with water to make it passable, Ice Freeze to turn puddles into Ice... the list is endless. You could use skills to access lots of little areas along your journey. And because they're not HMs, you have more more access to these skills without messing up your pokemon's battle moveset.
 
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