Fun If You Could implement a Metagame Format For This Game, How Would You Do it?

[asdjklghty]

Sure, I don't like toad like everyone else because no player likes having 40+% of their deck shut down in one turn for the rest of the game. Why I say ban toad is because the effect to lock trainers is very powerful and easy to pull off. For 2 energy you can lock your opponent out of the game, which does 2 things. It prevents your opponent from playing, which is bad for any game where it took no effort to pull off and 2, prevents the player from making any defensive plays against you, such as playing Enhanced Hammer to remove DCE, any cards to break locks and healing options. The fact this attack is on a basic and really cheap means your opponent only has 1 turn to find options. The toad player going first or second means they can get their lock. This is too aggressive and centralizing for any game.
You, based on your comment are a toad player, which means to me you have no respect for the game if you can't see how bad a card like this is for the game. Like Otaku said, you can try supporting your argument...

Why don't you look up the history of the game if you haven't played before B&W? Dialga G Item and STADIUM locked for a Metal and a Colorless. If you went first, the colorless requirement had no merit since you couldn't attack going first anyways. "Only 10 damage you say" yeah because the HP of big basics was so low back then. The below quote is from a site I can't mention but it speaks truth. Emphasis is mine.

Honestly I really don't see the problem. What you're describing is an oversimplified way of creating a strategy or deck. You're just emphasizing the fact that EXes are able to do that, while it's the same thing you're trying to achieve in a deck without EXes. Doing as much damage in as little time possible in the most optimal way. Min/maxing basically. That's pretty much where the competitive scene is focused on.

When arguing against EXes, most arguments that seem to come by are blaming them for the very thing you are trying to do in this game, winning. This sounds an awful lot like blaming the victor. It doesn't matter if it's EXes. If it would be stage 2's that would be controlling the meta, they would be blamed for winning to often. Besides, I see an awful lot of anger towards EXes, but without any solutions. And this following quote is not an option:


'I'd like to see TPCi make a new official meta like they did with expanded, where EX's are banned outright. Even non-EX cards which see regular play currently, like Garb and obviously Pyroar, would be less likely to flood the game due to their decreased usefulness."

Also, you call me out as a Toad player which many people are. Jason K uses Toad yet he spoke against it. I also disliked Toad overcentralizing the game but Im not a hypocrite since I realized that Toad is a fun deck to play. It balances Item spamming decks like Night March. If everyone could keep spamming Battle Compressors and get OHKOs with 30 HP Pokemon, would you keep playing? Probably not. But to the more important fact, I mainly play Mega Manectric/Garbodor and the Primals all of which have good matchups against Toad (Primal Groudon is the weakest though).

Not a single toad player uses the card without the mention cards in the deck. This is nothing to do with bad deck building or choices, it punishes good deck building and uses it against you, forcing you to play decks you don't want to or like, which is centralizing and makes formats stale and boring. Even Toad be itself is bad because it can give you a turn or many to do what ever you want because your opponent can't play. Remember, for a DCE you can lock a opponent out of the game, which is almost free considering how much draw decks have access to.

What you should do is be honest with yourself and say "yes, Toad is a problem for creativity and deck building".

Are you a noob or not? I already said in the text you mentioned some Dialga decks run Toad and they don't run Enhanced Hammer (though you can argue Cobalion EX in an enhanced hammer). This destroys any credibility you have since you're pulling stuff out of your butt with no proof, unlike me.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Why don't you look up the history of the game if you haven't played before B&W? Dialga G Item and STADIUM locked for a Metal and a Colorless. If you went first, the colorless requirement had no merit since you couldn't attack going first anyways. "Only 10 damage you say" yeah because the HP of big basics was so low back then. The below quote is from a site I can't mention but it speaks truth. Emphasis is mine.

I'm well aware of the history of the game. I've played since Base Set. Dialga G didn't have the same effects as Toad EX has on the game now. Not every deck could run Dialga G like how every deck can run Toad. Any deck is better off with a Toad tech because of how useful it is while the latter needed the Dialga, a metal energy and Energy Gain to get the attack, which in todays day in age wont work well because you can't use a Muscle Band so you're stuck with your 10 damage output while Toad can lock all trainers, needing nothing else but a DCE and is effective whether or not it has a muscle band because its 30 damage output add a lot of pressure where the 10 damage didn't.

With Toad now, the opponent has only 1 turn to do anything, which was my original point I was making. Dialga is not even something I want to talk about because its not around now and didn't have the impact Toad does now.

Also, you call me out as a Toad player which many people are. Jason K uses Toad yet he spoke against it.

I don't care what Jason K played or what any other player plays, people use Toad EX because of its ease of use and its ability to shut down games so early.

I also disliked Toad overcentralizing the game but Im not a hypocrite since I realized that Toad is a fun deck to play.

That would be a hypocrite. Also, fun is subjective.

It balances Item spamming decks like Night March. If everyone could keep spamming Battle Compressors and get OHKOs with 30 HP Pokemon, would you keep playing? Probably not. But to the more important fact, I mainly play Mega Manectric/Garbodor and the Primals all of which have good matchups against Toad (Primal Groudon is the weakest though).

Oh, I see, it was Night March that caused TPC to make Toad EX. I never knew... Also, this card isn't balanced against any other deck not named Night March.

Are you a newbie or not?

Nope

I already said in the text you mentioned some Dialga decks run Toad and they don't run Enhanced Hammer (though you can argue Cobalion EX in an enhanced hammer).

What Dialga? I'm not aware of a Dialga G running toad EX. My comment with E hammer was to say Toad covers its weakness to hammer, taking away any defensive plays the opponent could make.

This destroys any credibility you have since you're pulling stuff out of your butt with no proof, unlike me.

Everything I said is seen by pretty much every players but then again, I'm not the one name calling. You haven't shown anything yet as to why Toad EX shouldn't be banned while I have listed obvious concerns as to why it should be.

 

[asdjklghty]

You

I'm well aware of the history of the game. I've played since Base Set. Dialga G didn't have the same effects as Toad EX has on the game now. Not every deck could run Dialga G like how every deck can run Toad. Any deck is better off with a Toad tech because of how useful it is while the latter needed the Dialga, a metal energy and Energy Gain to get the attack, which in todays day in age wont work well because you can't use a Muscle Band so you're stuck with your 10 damage output while Toad can lock all trainers, needing nothing else but a DCE and is effective whether or not it has a muscle band because its 30 damage output add a lot of pressure where the 10 damage didn't.

With Toad now, the opponent has only 1 turn to do anything, which was my original point I was making. Dialga is not even something I want to talk about because its not around now and didn't have the impact Toad does now.




I don't care what Jason K played or what any other player plays, people use Toad EX because of its ease of use and its ability to shut down games so early.



That would be a hypocrite. Also, fun is subjective.



Oh, I see, it was Night March that caused TPC to make Toad EX. I never knew... Also, this card isn't balanced against any other deck not named Night March.




Nope


What Dialga? I'm not aware of a Dialga G running toad EX. My comment with E hammer was to say Toad covers its weakness to hammer, taking away any defensive plays the opponent could make.



Everything I said is seen by pretty much every players but then again, I'm not the one name calling. You haven't shown anything yet as to why Toad EX shouldn't be banned while I have listed obvious concerns as to why it should be.

You, sir fail to show why Item lock is bad in the first place. You must keep parroting "I can't play Items. I can't play Items"

Toad in Dialga-EX decks was what I was saying.

Name calling? You aren't innocent here as your tone in your posts have been rude and show no logic in your statements that's why I have to address them and show you my perspective on things.

You also make no mention of the quote I posted. Too tough for you to handle? Stop saying EXs like Toad should be banned "they're OP!" If what you liked was dominant and centralized the game (which will definitely happen no matter what), would there be people wanting what they like to take over the game? Yes. It's just a fact of life especially a TCG. The cards that are the focus of the format are highlighted.

EDIT: I never said or implied anything about Toad being a counter only to NM. That's an alteration of what I said. If you really have been playing since Base Set (which I highly doubt), you should have known my point was that Toad's lock is to balance the game out. People can't keep spamming Items. Pyroar and Toad are similar in that they forced people to change their decks or play new ones that had non-Basic attackers or ways around Pyroar like Ability lock. Towd's reign was just longer than Pyroar's. Like the lion, there are more counters to it like Xerosic, the Primals, and Grass support.

While Toad may have centralized the game for way overdue, the format is opening up again. And no, Item lock IS a strategy. You can keep whining about it or play better. Give your deck a way to deal with Item lock. If you can't, git gud. Blaming one thing for your losing wont help.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You
You, sir fail to show why Item lock is bad in the first place. You must keep parroting "I can't play Items. I can't play Items"

I did, many times. Whether or not you accept that view is on you. Just so I can say I said it, I'll say it again. Trainer lock punishes a core mechanic in the game, while in on itself isn't a bad thing but putting on on a card, like was done with Toad EX create a issue where they can effortlessly remove the mechanic from the game (match) as early as turn 1 (you going second) or turn 2, (you going second). The problem with Toad is the player facing down the card had 1 turn to do anything, whether or not they go first or second. Toad punishes good deck building in such a way that players often draw pass because they can't play their consistency cards or cards to find Pokemon, which are staples to the game. Toad EX slows the game down for the player while putting on constant pressure (30 to 50 damage) and with cards like like Hypnotoxic Laser adding another 10 to 30 damage a turn, which creates turns, quite often when a player has to take 80 damage, get locked out of most of their turn and have to pass, taking another 10 to 30 damage because they could not switch out of the poison because they are locked. The Toad EX player doesn't lose their pace of play while their opponent cant do anything about it. Toad EX centralizes the game in such a way to where you have to play it or a counter deck, which Jason K has shown, doesn't matter because you take away all options your opponent has. Toad EX forces players to play with decks they don't want to, which still suffer to the lock, unless you run some super hard counter.

I mean can go on but you have yet to even list one argument for why cards like Toad is good for the game.

Toad in Dialga-EX decks was what I was saying.

You didn't clarify that. You said "I already said in the text you mentioned some Dialga decks run Toad" The post above mention Dialga G, not the EX.

Name calling? You aren't innocent here as your tone in your posts have been rude and show no logic in your statements that's why I have to address them and show you my perspective on things.

I've been completely level headed the whole time but you have been name calling and have been the most rude. I have been supporting what I've been saying. You've just been calling me a noob. Ad Hominems dont work in arguments.

You also make no mention of the quote I posted. Too tough for you to handle? Stop saying EXs like Toad should be banned "they're OP!" If what you liked was dominant and centralized the game (which will definitely happen no matter what), would there be people wanting what they like to take over the game? Yes. It's just a fact of life especially a TCG. The cards that are the focus of the format are highlighted.

What post was that? I deconstructed your post and answered everything. As for overpowered cards, yeah, I take problem with cards I think are unhealthy. Its not about what I like, its about whats good for the game, which Toad isn't. I gave my reasons as to why it isn't. You have yet to say why it's good. Pokemon has a lot of overpowered cards which is why I want a ban/restriction game so this game can have some balance. Other TCGs ban cards if they become a problem. LTC was a problem, so it was removed from competitive play. A few other cards should follow.

EDIT: I never said or implied anything about Toad being a counter only to NM. That's an alteration of what I said. If you really have been playing since Base Set (which I highly doubt), you should have known my point was that Toad's lock is to balance the game out. People can't keep spamming Items. Pyroar and Toad are similar in that they forced people to change their decks or play new ones that had non-Basic attackers or ways around Pyroar like Ability lock. Towd's reign was just longer than Pyroar's. Like the lion, there are more counters to it like Xerosic, the Primals, and Grass support.

Your post had the impression that Toad EX was made to beat Night March, which it wasn't. Toad doesn't balance the game. It unbalances it. The fact that toad takes away the options of the opponent and doesn't take yours means it isn't balance. While I dont like vileplume, it removes options from both players. Thats balance. Items are part of the game and all decks use them differently. The problem is items are too powerful and basic's are too good. Toad kills evolution decks and decks that do things other than laser. Pyroar doesn't centralize in the same way Toad does. Pyroar doesn't fit into every deck. Pyroar is also easy to get around, even if if stops you for a turn or two but decks now can handle the card. The primals arent the only that can can beat Pyroar and you dont need Xerosic to remove the DCE while Toad EX demands your supporter for the turn to get rid of the DCE, which it will get again next turn.

While Toad may have centralized the game for way overdue, the format is opening up again. And no, Item lock IS a strategy. You can keep whining about it or play better. Give your deck a way to deal with Item lock. If you can't, git gud. Blaming one thing for your losing wont help.

I'll whine about it all I want, since Im the one here dropping evidence to support my claims. Trainer Lock is a strategy but its way too easy to get and has no drawbacks and serves no other purpose but to prevent your opponent from playing. Its not a matter of "git gud" but a matter of game balance. Vileplume trainer lock is annoying but good for the game, since it cant gotten in 1 turn and requires lots of deck space and resources. Toad trainer lock is bad for the game because it takes a max of 8 card slots, giving you 52 card spaces to do other stuff with while Vilrplume takes at least 13 spaces for itself and removes the ability to play item yourself.

Again, stop being so aggressive and look at it objectively.

 

[Lanstar]

No offense, asdjklghty... But I think you're _way_ too sensitive and critical about people thinking about recreating metagames of their own.

So I implement a format for a competition of my own that has its own special rules (20 trainer max, no ability-based drawers). Others create ones where particular cards are banned, or where weakness rules are changed, or where a sideboard is created. What would be so bad about people experimenting with these rules and regulations? How exactly does this affect you? It's not like you _must_ attend them, and the ideas of these new formats even now are just speculatory ideas - probably never will they be implemented in official sanctioned Pokemon tournaments.

I ask you not to critically bash anyone who doesn't have the same metagame ideologies as you. This thread is about people sharing opinions about how they'd implement a metagame, not one where people like you come in defensively about other people's ideas and scald everyone for not believing in your way of implementation.

...Which, by the way, you haven't exactly given a clear enough image about your implementation. You've just expressed your ideology about adding skill, but how you'd do this is rather vague to me so far. Talk more direct about what would be added, changed, banned, etc., with all the cards shown in the TCG itself. DP-Era is vague to me, since I haven't played there at the time.