Iron Leaves and Walking Wake from Crimson Haze!

[WillyCharizard]

I'm not sure I consider this a massive loss since I think flexibility in card design is also good. I think I like the way things are now, where these gimmicks are more suggestions as opposed to obligations.

Well I suppose, I personally cared more about an interesting gimmick but thats just me I suppose ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Octowen]

I'm not sure I consider this a massive loss since I think flexibility in card design is also good. I think I like the way things are now, where these gimmicks are more suggestions as opposed to obligations.

Well I suppose, I personally cared more about an interesting gimmick but thats just me I suppose ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah I like a mix, if every Ancient card self-damaged and every future card moved Pokémon around they would become very stale very quickly. I think more cards like Iron Valiant (which follows the gimmick but doesn’t do so in a generic and boring way; working alongside other cards with the gimmick instead of doing the same thing as them), would be really cool to see.

 

[Eyeofthestorm]

Loving the artwork for both.

 

[Alex Hesketh]

Yes they gave up too quick, Im too lazy to search but pretty sure this is the only self damage ancient Pokemon in a long time and its such a stretch consider the revenge attack a related to move gimmick, even a "Cant attack next turn" will be quite a stretch but we know that mean switch the pokemon to reset, so I could accept it but not a revenge attack

Overall there are like 20 cards from each arquetype and maybe 6 or 7 have their "gimmick", less than the 50%

in a long time??? huh??? Theres barely been 2 main sets ? but anyways I see the "gimmick" more into their booster capsule cards. Probably more with ancient than future but the designs of these themes do seem to play around these specific cards which btw were the first ones revealed so idk for me they dont feel that disconnected but also Im glad theyre not super gimmicky or super strict with with their thematics.

 

[JR TCG23]

Honestly no matter what people say these cards are just not going to be used. They really aren’t all that great and have no amazing combo or obvious pairing so unless I am missing somthing CRUCIAL then this really means both are L

 

[PMJ]

Did anybody remember when Ancient and Future pokemon it seemed like they were going to have gimmicks? Similiar as how Ultrabeast were about prizes, Ancient were about self damage and Future about move Pokemos positions, they dropped the idea too early and thats so lame...

It makes more sense if you think of Ancient and Future Pokemon as cards meant to utilize their respective Booster Capsules rather than having one specific gimmick.

Roaring Moon ex, Slither Wing, and this new Walking Wake use the extra 60 HP to survive their self-damage better; Scream Tail uses it to hit harder. Brute Bonnet requires it to poison both Active Pokemon, which Ancient Pokemon are protected from.

Iron Valiant ex is pretty much the poster child for the Future capsule; the extra 20 damage lets it swing for 220, which is a relevant number, and its Ability requires it to move around the board. There are also many Future Pokemon both existing and upcoming, with high Retreat Costs that will appreciate being able to retreat for free.

The new Iron Leaves doesn't specifically need the Future capsule, but that's okay - as someone said, if all the Ancient and Future cards did the same thing, it would be quite boring.

 

[RogueMike95]

We've seen roaring moon ex utilize significant amounts of water energy just for rad greninja. This walking wake can slot well into this archetype and allows you to use a single prizer that hits harder than morpeko. 180 is still solid for a single prizer as you can still roaring moon ex them for 100 or 220 afterwards. However, the strength of morpeko is that it doesn't hinder powering up your roaring moon ex.

Radiant Ninja covered a much more significant role when devoted water energy: Knocking out 2 pokemon at once. That was something Roaring Moon ex could not do at all. Chaining together 2 1-prizers that only take 2 prizes cumulative is risky as heck in a dedicated Roaring Moon ex deck because you are leaving a lot of time for the opponent to just take some form of a 2-prize knockout from a bench snipe and fall behind the prize trade forever. Roaring Moon ex decks, including those now, play really aggro in staying ahead in the prize race.

In the same vein of a one-prizer attacking for OK damage numbers past the point where Greninja would be effective, it is much easier to include baby Roaring Moon for 2 Dark Energy instead of 2 Water + 1 Dark and at least 1 E-Switch needed.

Either way, decks that feature Roaring Moon ex have been on a decline in favor of Dino Box / Baby Roaring Moon focused builds.

Yeah Chip Richey and Azul GG were talking about (on their podcast) how post-rotation Ancient Box seems to be oriented towards two hit KOs using one-prizes, with maybe a Roaring Move OHKO to take the last two prizes in one fell swoop.

For context, this is a completely different deck than the one angooseburger is describing. These are decks featuring the regular Roaring Moon from Temporal Forces, and usually have one of two cores of Ancient pokemon

They tend to either run:
4 Roaring Moon
3-4 Koraidon
Some count of Flutter Mane, Slither Wing and/or Great Tusk
0 Roaring Moon ex

Or:
4 Roaring Moon
1-3 Roaring Moon ex
Some count of Flutter Mane and/or Great Tusk

The former uses Koraidon to hit middling numbers early and use Roaring Moon to hit stronger numbers, if not OHKO numbers, later in the game once you build it up. These Dino Box lists opt for consistently reaching two attachments for Koraidon, Slither Wing, Roaring Moon, and Great Tusk. They have absolutely no reason to run Walking Wake, and doing so would mean adding a third energy type and Energy Switch.

The latter uses Roaring Moon ex and Roaring Moon to keep whatever tempo of KOs they want, while only running Dark Energy and ensuring good use of Dark Patch. These lists have so far only included Energy Switch at this point to facilitate Radiant Greninja with Water Energy, which still fulfils the same function as it did in decks focusing on Roaring Moon ex. Though it needs 1 less attachment, Walking Wake would basically have to attack turn 1, or maybe turn 2, to not get completely outdone by Baby Roaring Moon. Since it would be attacking that early, it would be either attacking into a 1-prizer that Baby Ninja would handle a lot better in certain matchups, or a 2-prize basic that Roaring Moon ex chews out more efficiently and aggressively.

Long story short in all this: Walking Wake's 3-energy need is way too cumbersome to include in Dino Box, and rather outmatched by Radiant Greninja elsewhere. If it hit higher damage OR only had 2-energy requirement, it would be much more considerable.

 

[Octowen]

For context, this is a completely different deck than the one angooseburger is describing. These are decks featuring the regular Roaring Moon from Temporal Forces, and usually have one of two cores of Ancient pokemon

They tend to either run:
4 Roaring Moon
3-4 Koraidon
Some count of Flutter Mane, Slither Wing and/or Great Tusk
0 Roaring Moon ex

Or:
4 Roaring Moon
1-3 Roaring Moon ex
Some count of Flutter Mane and/or Great Tusk

The former uses Koraidon to hit middling numbers early and use Roaring Moon to hit stronger numbers, if not OHKO numbers, later in the game once you build it up. These Dino Box lists opt for consistently reaching two attachments for Koraidon, Slither Wing, Roaring Moon, and Great Tusk. They have absolutely no reason to run Walking Wake, and doing so would mean adding a third energy type and Energy Switch.

The latter uses Roaring Moon ex and Roaring Moon to keep whatever tempo of KOs they want, while only running Dark Energy and ensuring good use of Dark Patch. These lists have so far only included Energy Switch at this point to facilitate Radiant Greninja with Water Energy, which still fulfils the same function as it did in decks focusing on Roaring Moon ex. Though it needs 1 less attachment, Walking Wake would basically have to attack turn 1, or maybe turn 2, to not get completely outdone by Baby Roaring Moon. Since it would be attacking that early, it would be either attacking into a 1-prizer that Baby Ninja would handle a lot better in certain matchups, or a 2-prize basic that Roaring Moon ex chews out more efficiently and aggressively.

Long story short in all this: Walking Wake's 3-energy need is way too cumbersome to include in Dino Box, and rather outmatched by Radiant Greninja elsewhere. If it hit higher damage OR only had 2-energy requirement, it would be much more considerable.

Yeah thx for clarifying that. I had been attempting to discuss the Ancient Box Deck that’s been seeing some success in the Temporal Forces meta, especially at the latest Japanese tournament.

 

[phnxknght]

Walking Wake somehow doesn't fit in a deck well rn. It does too low of damage to be run over Kyogre in Bax/Pao, but also has too high of an attack cost to be run effectively in Dino Box.

Iron Leaves is interesting enough given that one power-up from Booster Capsule or Crown ex lets it OHKO Charizard, but getting it set up is still telegraphed from Miraidon. Seems like an ok card to at least test for Future Box vs Zard, but I feel Iron Leaves ex plays much better for game momentum since it can pick up energy from anywhere when it comes into play.

I could see Iron Leaves in a Future Lost Box with Iron Hands, and two copies of Future Booster.

If Charizard is still popular, a Grass and 2 Colorless attack is extremely flexible in Lost Box and easily could be Mirage Gate and Jet Energy. If you pinged the Zard with 20 damage or get the Future Booster then that's a KO.

Temporal Forces meta is in flex and that's not even accounting that this Twilight Masquerade which will be a different format for us.