Discussion Is Garbodor (GUR) the proof we won't get another Villeplume?

mirdo

mirdo

Seagull Overlord and Business Entrepreneur
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Good day humans,

Over here in europe we need to wait for the Prerelease a bit longer (at least in germany) so i won't get my wings on to the new cards just yet.
But i thought about them a lot and my mind stuck with the new garb. Which looks kind of terrefying.
But is it maybe what we need for the meta? Because right now we have Vileplume. Which is... debateble? Some like it. I don't really.
But i get the idea. Most decks rely and abuse Itemcards so you want to nerf them.
And maybe Garb is the thing we need after Vileplume goes out of the standard rotation. You don't block Items compleatly anymore (because if you need Itemcards to make your deck work it just felt annyoing that you couldn't do much) but you still get punished if you use too many of them in your deck.

So what do you think of the pile of trash? Will it even affect the meta after the rotation?
Will it be another of these "budget but they kinda work" decks like Passimian is?
Or will it just be a line in excisting decks and not it's own deck?
Do you think there will be something like Vileplume again or did they introduce Grab so they can "nerf" Itemcards somehow without blocking them compleatly?

I hope this thread makes sense. ^^
Have a nice weekend
 
The new Garbodor is a bad design, it is too OP and it is destroying Japan's meta right now. For a single energy it forces your oponent to play with minimum items cards and its a single prize pokemon. The atack cost makes it splashable in a lot of decks too. I might take a break from pokemon if such a card ends up dominating in tournaments.
 
mirdo said:
Good day humans,

Over here in europe we need to wait for the Prerelease a bit longer (at least in germany) so i won't get my wings on to the new cards just yet.
But i thought about them a lot and my mind stuck with the new garb. Which looks kind of terrefying.
But is it maybe what we need for the meta? Because right now we have Vileplume. Which is... debateble? Some like it. I don't really.
But i get the idea. Most decks rely and abuse Itemcards so you want to nerf them.
And maybe Garb is the thing we need after Vileplume goes out of the standard rotation. You don't block Items compleatly anymore (because if you need Itemcards to make your deck work it just felt annyoing that you couldn't do much) but you still get punished if you use too many of them in your deck.

So what do you think of the pile of trash? Will it even affect the meta after the rotation?
Will it be another of these "budget but they kinda work" decks like Passimian is?
Or will it just be a line in excisting decks and not it's own deck?
Do you think there will be something like Vileplume again or did they introduce Grab so they can "nerf" Itemcards somehow without blocking them compleatly?

I hope this thread makes sense. ^^
Have a nice weekend
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After typing what is a literal essay about what makes Garbodor impacting on this Meta and what makes it good/bad/etc... I will simply say this...

The deck is a threat and we need to prepare for it.

-Asmer
 
Question beeing is. How do you perpare for something like that.
And do you think an Errata is likely when they notice it's to much damage? If you look at Vespiqueen you might think 10x for Garbordor (or 20+ 10x if you want to) would be plenty aswell
 
Luis Rodriguez said:
The new Garbodor is a bad design, it is too OP and it is destroying Japan's meta right now. For a single energy it forces your oponent to play with minimum items cards and its a single prize pokemon. The atack cost makes it splashable in a lot of decks too. I might take a break from pokemon if such a card ends up dominating in tournaments.
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I feel the game needs this kind of deck around. It's OP because of the common core of deck building. If you want to play a turbo deck, then you lose.
 
CrownAxe said:
Removing an entire deck archtype from being viable is not good for the game
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You lose against one or two decks. That's not a whole lot different than the current rock paper scissors in standard anyway. Now there is another scissors lol! I don't think that kills an entire archetype. To quote(ish) @Asmer, a new deck is coming. It is a great deck. We need to prepare for it. It will change the meta. That's a good thing IMO.
 
CrownAxe said:
Removing an entire deck archtype from being viable is not good for the game
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The speed of the game has been out of control and thats because of how powerful the items have become. Those same fast decks "removed" other deck strats from the game because they are too fast. Also, evolution cards have been out of the game for like six year because of this.
 
I do kind of wonder if we'll see a bit of moving away from the discard-heavy builds that have been deck building core for years. Especially Ultra Ball and Juniper/Sycamore, and Shaymin-EX encouraging that sort of play.
 
I think something that regulates how people play is something that is inevitable in almost every format and card game alike. Like stated before by other 'Beachers, the game has been going way too fast with cards like Shaymin-EX, Professor Sycamore, VS Seeker, Max Elixir and Trainers' Mail being legal for so long. As a result only a few decks in every format could actually keep up in terms of speed, if they did not prevent you directly from playing items, wether it is Seismitoad-EX's Quaking Punch, Trevenant's Forest Curse, or Vileplume's Irritating Pollen. Even then, those decks could typically set up almost or just as fast. With the introduction of the new Garbodor, while it may seem at first like a terribly overpowered pile of garbage, personally I think that the Pokémon TCG has needed a card to really slow it back down to what it should be. Instead of turning off items via Ability or Attack, Garbodor lets you play items, but for the price of feeding him another 20 damage. In all, Garbodor is a very powerful card currently as 90% of successful decks play 20-24 Item cards that they rely on to properly set up, but Garbodor is going to make players think and play differently. It also opens the floodgates for more slower decks that were overrun by the super fast decks that the game has had for the past few formats. Every once and a while, a big swing in how people play is needed. The game gets stale with the same 4-5 decks preforming at the top in everything.
 
The main method of dealing with this trash is not playing the standard draw engine. We have new options for that

1. Drampa-GX. People thought this thing's GX attack would be trash due to N, but the fact that it also effectively unlocks the ability for you to play Hala as PONT+1 makes it a great discard-lite way to start a game. It's also a pretty potent big basic attacker if you include a magma base or another way to get reliable damage onto your own bench.

2. Sylveon-GX. Allows you to search 3 without playing a single item, as you can use a fairy energy card to search it. It falls just short of OHKO on Garbodor, but if you want to play that game you can use the search to bring up a DCE and 2 Kukui then have two turns of OHKOing Garbodor without putting an item in discard, then use ultra'd Leles to keep chaining Kukuis if necessary. Can also Prayer-GX to reset the opponent's bench, if they have a garb in active and a trubbish or two on bench, you can stall them from evolving their second Garbodor for another turn, or stop setup on whatever else they're running with it.

3. Lele-GX plus non-conventional draw support. Lele makes Lillie/N more effective as a draw engine, also makes formerly neglected supporters like Brigette, Wally and Skyla more effective as one-of tech cards depending on what your deck needs. Hala and Mallow are new supporters that are also going to have potential in Lele centric draw engines. Olivia which will probably come with SM3 allows you to put 2 GX cards in your hand which will be instrumental in conjunction with Tapu Lele, though unfortunately it forces you to play across turns. I think people will be (and already are in Japan) playing thicker lines of Lele than we thought would be the case. I don't think that any of these engines are nearly as efficient as shaymin/vs seeker/sycamore/ultra ball but now there's an actual price to pay for playing that fast, the discard pile is suddenly not the supporter bank and potential dead draw storage facility.

4. Play an already slow deck. I think Lapras won't be bad here, as long as you don't get greedy playing disruption or new acceleration items.

Barring that, you just need to play a deck that can hit the 120 mark cheaply and make trades effectively. Garbodor and Lele are the most metagame-defining cards we've gotten since Shaymin imo and show just how devoted TCPI is to putting the brakes on this game. GX cards with massive HP and requiring evolution were just the first sign. I think they might have gone too far though, it's not the turbo decks I'm going to mourn (darkrai turbo in particular is an incredibly boring, braindead deck imo) but rather the mega decks which are generally dependent on spirit links (now removable again) and mega turbos to retain an edge in a game with a lot more super high HP, high damage evolution options with GX cards.
 
I feel like Garbodor is both good and bad for the meta. I like that it's slowing down the game a little, but I don't like that it punishes basically the only alternative to Shaymin right now. For instance, I only own one Shaymin, so to play around that in my Vespiquen deck, I use a combination of Acro Bike and Trainer's Mail. It works well, but when this Garbodor comes out, my Vespiquens are gonna get OHKOed the entire game for litterally no effort on my opponent's part. Granted, i'll OHKO Garbodors too, and it's not like Vespiquen is exactly a Wailord, but still. On the flip side, Garbodor will be the end to turbo decks like Mega Mewtwo (mainly because of weakness) Turbo Darkrai, Mega Ray, and any other turbo deck, which will put the game in a much more strategetic and calculated place. Maybe we'll see more supporter-based and Pokemon-based draw engines in the future. I'm definitely gonna use Garbodor though. If you can't beat em, join em! :)
 
GekkisaiDaiNi said:
I feel like Garbodor is both good and bad for the meta. I like that it's slowing down the game a little, but I don't like that it punishes basically the only alternative to Shaymin right now. For instance, I only own one Shaymin, so to play around that in my Vespiquen deck, I use a combination of Acro Bike and Trainer's Mail. It works well, but when this Garbodor comes out, my Vespiquens are gonna get OHKOed the entire game for litterally no effort on my opponent's part. Granted, i'll OHKO Garbodors too, and it's not like Vespiquen is exactly a Wailord, but still. On the flip side, Garbodor will be the end to turbo decks like Mega Mewtwo (mainly because of weakness) Turbo Darkrai, Mega Ray, and any other turbo deck, which will put the game in a much more strategetic and calculated place. Maybe we'll see more supporter-based and Pokemon-based draw engines in the future. I'm definitely gonna use Garbodor though. If you can't beat em, join em! :)
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to be fair it doesn't take much to OHKO vespiquen anyway
 
Which is basically vespiquen and ironically FOGP item lock decks that run trainers mail/acros/revitalizer/ultras to get their coveted t1 lock. Vespiquen was already kind of on its way out for multiple reasons and nobody should be complaining about something that hurts vileplume lock.
 
Kietharr said:
Which is basically vespiquen and ironically FOGP item lock decks that run trainers mail/acros/revitalizer/ultras to get their coveted t1 lock. Vespiquen was already kind of on its way out for multiple reasons and nobody should be complaining about something that hurts vileplume lock.
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I didn't look at that way, I wonder if T1 item lock decks will be less popular (lets hope) and imo Vespiquen is definitely not done until rotation hits. The new Machoke will stop the Oricorio field wipe and will become a 1-1 tech line in any Vespiquen deck not made by an idiot. And I was in no way complaining about it. I just don't like that it slams the only viable Shaymin alternative. I think Vespiquen was a bad example though as it gets OHKOed by anything even remotely meta except a damageless Tauros. Other then that, I think the new Garb is a good thing.
 
Acros and whatnot aren't a true alternative to Shaymin, basically you only use them in a budget list that lacks Shaymins or in one of those two deck archetypes, ideally they're extra draw power on top of Shaymin. And really those are just a few more items on top of the cookie cutter draw engine of 2 shaymin, 4 ultras, 4 sycamore, 4 vs seeker, 2 N, 3-4 trainers' mail. With that many items you're still getting smacked around, a few more acro bikes aren't going to make that much of a difference if you're playing all of that to get resources on the board.

Shaymin loses quite a bit of its strength when you can't play your hand down and item cards, having the least restrictions on when you can play them typically make that easier. The indirect damage Shaymin takes from having to deal with a meta where you can't play items thoughtlessly is major, then you have Weavile-BSH coming which has a one colorless energy attack that deals 60 damage to all pokemon in play with an ability, aka an easy 2HKO on any benched Shaymin (for both players). Like Garbodor, it shares a basic with another useful utility poke, Weavile-STS, so it might show up as part of a thin line in a lot of decks (it's really good verses Volc so I could see it in Scizor-EX in particular).

I think we're looking at things like 'viable shaymin alternatives' because Shaymin has singlehandedly set the pace of this game since ROS. It's viable to not have pokemon based draw support if the game around you is slower. Putting a lot of hate on Shaymin indirectly reduces the need to play filler cards like acro bikes and trainers' mails to catch up to it.
 
Kietharr said:
Acros and whatnot aren't a true alternative to Shaymin, basically you only use them in a budget list that lacks Shaymins or in one of those two deck archetypes, ideally they're extra draw power on top of Shaymin. And really those are just a few more items on top of the cookie cutter draw engine of 2 shaymin, 4 ultras, 4 sycamore, 4 vs seeker, 2 N, 3-4 trainers' mail. With that many items you're still getting smacked around, a few more acro bikes aren't going to make that much of a difference if you're playing all of that to get resources on the board.

Shaymin loses quite a bit of its strength when you can't play your hand down and item cards, having the least restrictions on when you can play them typically make that easier. The indirect damage Shaymin takes from having to deal with a meta where you can't play items thoughtlessly is major, then you have Weavile-BSH coming which has a one colorless energy attack that deals 60 damage to all pokemon in play with an ability, aka an easy 2HKO on any benched Shaymin (for both players). Like Garbodor, it shares a basic with another useful utility poke, Weavile-STS, so it might show up as part of a thin line in a lot of decks (it's really good verses Volc so I could see it in Scizor-EX in particular).

I think we're looking at things like 'viable shaymin alternatives' because Shaymin has singlehandedly set the pace of this game since ROS. It's viable to not have pokemon based draw support if the game around you is slower. Putting a lot of hate on Shaymin indirectly reduces the need to play filler cards like acro bikes and trainers' mails to catch up to it.
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That's definitely true, I need to look at it in a wider perspective. I've been messing around with alternative draw engines on paper and one that seems to have potential is Tapu Lele+Alolan Sandslash+Mallow. The idea is to provide mass searchability of your deck with the Mallow and Alolan Sandslash combo, boosting that combo with previously luck-based cards like Acro Bike and Trainer's Mail, and then using N and Lillie as backup support for when your hand simply sucks and you need mass draws. So basically, items take a back seat as basically turbochargers that are there just to set up. Will be testing to see if it goes as planned. If it does, then, well, I'm gonna have some weeeeeeird decks lol.
 
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